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What Country Does Each Kingdom Represent Historically?


I.Know.Nothing

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No, the Iron Islands are not infertile. Theon makes it perfectly clear that the Ironborn do farm, contrary to popular belief around these boards. It's just that the soil is thin and not very fertile, much like the soil in Norway.

As for "mainly fertile", you're just dead wrong. The total amount of land used for farming in Norway is 3 %. Yes, that's right. Not 30, not 13, but 3. It might have been slightly higher in the middle ages, but still, it's only a minute fraction of the entire land mass that is even remotely viable for subsistence farming.

If anything, the Iron Islands are MORE fertile than Norway, as they generally have a better climate.

I think the Iron Islands are more inspired by this state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles than Viking Age Norway. The Viking influence is still there, but these guys were also pirates well into the Middle Ages and also the climate and geography seems to add up more, what with them being small backwaterish islands west of mainland Britain.

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In reply to Lord Reaver (forgot to quote): Hmm. Sorry. I didn't know that about Norway. I knew that overall Scandivania is more fertile that the Iron Islands. I know that the Northern parts have weather not suitable I think. I learned something new, I didn't do much research on Iron Islands as some of the POV characters are annoying and boring.


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I think the Iron Islands are more inspired by this state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles than Viking Age Norway. The Viking influence is still there, but these guys were also pirates well into the Middle Ages and also the climate and geography seems to add up more, what with them being small backwaterish islands west of mainland Britain.

Lord Reaver was talking about my claim of overall Scandinavia, not just Norway, so that was not needed. I do agree to an extent, but I would say the people are more Scandinavian, but the islands are a lot like the Shetlands, Orkneys, Hebrides, etc. I should have thought of this, for god's sake I'm from the UK, and I forgot about our own Isles.

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I think the Iron Islands are more inspired by this state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles than Viking Age Norway. The Viking influence is still there, but these guys were also pirates well into the Middle Ages and also the climate and geography seems to add up more, what with them being small backwaterish islands west of mainland Britain.

Hmm, maybe, though that is technically Norway too :). Or at least, it was for a while. Same with the Shetlands and Man, really. I guess it could be any of those, though they seem a bit...small.

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Lord Reaver was talking about my claim of overall Scandinavia, not just Norway, so that was not needed. I do agree to an extent, but I would say the people are more Scandinavian, but the islands are a lot like the Shetlands, Orkneys, Hebrides, etc. I should have thought of this, for god's sake I'm from the UK, and I forgot about our own Isles.

Hmm, I don't know if they are that Scandinavian really. Most of them don't have Norse names, their Cthulhu-religion has zero similarities with Asatro, their lords live in stone castles rather than halls, the rest of their culture... well, a bit similar with the raiding and love of fighting and the use of thralls I guess, other than that not so much. But I mean those british islands were colonized by Norse anyway.

Hmm, maybe, though that is technically Norway too :). Or at least, it was for a while. Same with the Shetlands and Man, really. I guess it could be any of those, though they seem a bit...small.

Yep. Size is relative though, compared to the rest of Westeros the Iron Islands are very small, even if they would be pretty decent sized if transported to our world and dropped in the Atlantic Ocean. ASOIAF is written by an American so of course everything is huge ;)

As for the other kingdoms I don't really see the strong similarities between Germany and the Stormlands, or the Riverlands and the Low Countries that many people bring up in the thread. There is only some very superficial likeness there, especially in the case of the Stormlands (Medieval Germany definitely wasn't a poor country of forests and rocks, in fact it was very rich and well populated). I think both of those kingdoms are just generic medieval fantasy countries, for lack of a better term. They don't stand out in any way in terms of culture or society, and their political situations are too common to narrow down to particular countries ( being fought over or fighting a lot) . The mainland part of the Crownlands too, for that matter.

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Actually, france and spain did not have any major wars before 1492, it was only after france invaded naples when we really did oppose them. We even helped them destroying the english fleet at la rochelle.

Ps. I have seen a lot of people compare spain to dorne because of 711, but even after 700 years of occupation, a great percentage of the population in al andalus was still christian (they were called mozarabes), and assuming that all spaniards are hot-blooded is grossly stereotyping the country, a bit like saying that all scottish people just care about their money. And by the way, commenting on wars on the fifteenth century does not exactly cover the other 90% of the middle ages

100,000 French troops invaded Aragon in the 1200's.

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Yes because that's a wiki article that gives no source for the claim of what is a total of 133,000 men (100,000 is just the infantry). And none of the subsequent battles report anything near that size

Armies of that size simply did not exist in Western Europe at that time. Equipping them would cost astronomical prices and trying to feed them for a month would be a logistical nightmare let alone for an entire campaign

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think there is a mixture of places in /most/ locations.

The North - In terms of climate, size, isolation, and type of land, it matches eastern Europe. but more specifically, its structure is similar to northern medieval Sngland/scotland. Hadrian's Wall (The Wall) was built during the roman conquest to defend the rest of England from the Scots and the Picts (wildlings) and remained fortified into the Middle Ages. Later in history, the Starks represent the Yorks, a northern family who were essentially "the good guys".

The Riverlands - I have drawn parallels to the Netherlands, full of rivers and agriculture. "Keys" in terms of military strategy and economy, and was conquered multiple times during the Middle Ages, as the Riverlands supposedly do as well.

The Vale - Switzerland, always neutral and mountainous.

The Westerlands - another combination. Structurally, it is England. The Lannisters are the Lancasters. The sigil is a lion, it is the most economically flourishing and believes itself to be above the other kingdoms. In terms of landscape, it resembles the southwest Cornish area of England, with rocky coasts and many cliffs. It's later developed alliances, however, reminds me of Italy.

The Stormlands - weather wise, it's definitely England lol. But specifically, it reminds me of Germany. Internal family feuds were common in the German Kingdom during the Middle Ages. Also, the stag (I think) is some symbol of Germany.
-King's Landing - London

The Reach - France. Beautiful gardens and farmland. Secretly everyone's enemy yet no one really makes a move against them, and vice versa.

Dorne - This is a confirmed combination of Whales, Spain, and Palestine.

Iron Islands - I'm quite sure we all agree that they're the Vikings?

Essos - Mediterranean world in the Middle Ages. This means Southern Europe, the Middle East, and Northern Africa

Ghiscari Empire - Ancient Greece

Valyria - Roman Empire, followed by a large scale Pompeii-event.

Sothoryos - Sub-Saharan Africa in the Middle Ages: unknown and vast, full of jungles, but not much else is known.

Ulthos - Medieval America, aka literally unknown. There are apparently forests there, which is similar to the descriptions of early explorers landing on North America for the first time.

--

this video is really good as well

http://edappleby.tumblr.com/post/81630775804/get-ready-to-think-way-too-much-about-history-and

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I have always though of the land beyond the wall as Scandinavia, but mostly based on some of the wildlings' names, they just sound so Scandinavian; Tormund, Toregg, Val, Dalla, Yarl, a very Scandi sounding. Although Yarl was not a name but a title, guess it translate to earl. And the "last names", Tormund Giantslayer, Raymon Redbear, that is again something a find very reminiscent of Viking.

There are also wargs and giants in old Norse mythology.

And the wildlings do go raiding, just not in boats...

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  • 1 month later...

good points. I always saw the Iron Islands as a mix of Ireland and Vikings. Rebellious islands off the west coast with a different religon to their conquerors. Also there was an Irish female pirate Grace O'Malley who Asha could represent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O'Malley

I agree with Dorne as Spain with the Moorish element.

Ghis is Carthage.

Valyria is Ancient Rome

Qarth is Damascus or Bagdad.

Free Cities are Italian city states.

Bravos being Venice.

The Reach is civalric France with elements of the Neterlands.

The Vale is Wales with its troublesome hill tribes.

The North is northern England / Scotland.

The First Men are celts, the Andals are Anglo Saxons.

Yes the Iron Islands are equal parts Manx ( Hiberno-Norse) and Gaels both of which had histories of reaving.

I got the chance to chat with GRRM and ask him and he said they were a mix of Gaels and Vikings. If you look at the Kindom of the Isles you will see a lot of similarities including having a King named "Harrold the Black" the Drowned God religion has a lot of similarities to both the Pagan and Catholic Irish Religions.

He also confirmed that Asha was, in fact, inspired by Graine' O'Malley.

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I have always though of the land beyond the wall as Scandinavia, but mostly based on some of the wildlings' names, they just sound so Scandinavian; Tormund, Toregg, Val, Dalla, Yarl, a very Scandi sounding. Although Yarl was not a name but a title, guess it translate to earl. And the "last names", Tormund Giantslayer, Raymon Redbear, that is again something a find very reminiscent of Viking.

There are also wargs and giants in old Norse mythology.

And the wildlings do go raiding, just not in boats...

I agree. Caught that on the re-read. Mostly The Frozen Shore and Frostfangs which it's stated would raid Bear Island which is very Iceland Like and they have a Scandinavian like Lodge rather than a stone Castle.

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While under Norway control for a time they were also controlled by Ireland, England and Scotland at times as well. In fact Balon's Rebellion has a lot of similarities with the rebellion against Scotland.

They were also colonized by the Irish and Hiberno-Norse ( Norse-Gaels) who were the Norse Vikings ( Sea-Raiders) who settled in Ireland and intermarried with the Irish Gaels and adopted their customs and religion ( Gaelicnization).

Hmm, maybe, though that is technically Norway too :). Or at least, it was for a while. Same with the Shetlands and Man, really. I guess it could be any of those, though they seem a bit...small.

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If I'd give a shot it would be:



Westerlands - England, because they are aiming at getting other peoples' stuff for most of the time and do it in a very brutal way


Reach - France, the heartland of chivalry


Dorne - Spain, mix between two cultures to create a new one


Iron Islands - Norway and Denmark because they are always raiding and conquering stuff


Stormlands - Germany, don't know why but the Durrendons and Baratheons just scream "Germans" to me


Crownlands - no idea


Riverlands - no idea but Netherlands and Poland are as good as anything


Vale - don't know, maybe Austeria or Hungary?


North - no good idea

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Well it's not the best analysis but I always thought the Known World this way:



Westeros is America (continent): It's in the west side of the world in the maps, it's basically a new culture (I guess essosi countries are far older) and it was born from all the etnic groups who came from Essos (mostly the free cities zone, which I think represent Europe). Also It's divided in two big zones: The North and The south, they are two really different cultures being the north much colder than the south, just like North and South America.



Western Essos is Europe: They have somehow a similar culture and all them were born of the ruins of an ancient empire (Valirya = Rome), even the free cities languages come from valiryan just like romance lenguages came from latin. They are generally rich and even after having lots of differences they are somehow an united country. Braavos would be the UK (strongly attached to their manners and kinda splited of the rest of the free cities) and Ibben logically Iceland.



Eastern Essos is Asia: inhospitable and considered "weird" to the western culture just like Asia was to occident in the middle ages. The dothraki are like the hunos or the mongols. The Ghiscari remember me to China (they even eat dogs, racist mode off) and the far away Asshai is just like Japan.



Sothoryos is Africa: Doesn't need much explaination.



Ulthos is Australia maybe??

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The only thing the westerlands has in common with England is the lion! What do you people think England is? Only London worships money and Russian oligarchs. And England wasn't the first country to do empire, turkey, Iran (Persia), Rome, Greece, Spain, France, Scandinavia, Germany all had a go. It does not make England perfidious or grabby. It was a different time, there were different standards.

So no, kings landing is London in a way. But London is nothing like the rest of England. Although we would quite like some goldmines. It's not like London shares.

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I never see Westeros as comprising different 'countries' but see it instead as a gigantic British Isles (South America-sized!).



North of the wall strikes me as Scotland with the Wildlings as Picts.


The North is then like old Saxon Northern England.


The Riverlands seem thoroughly English to me.


Westerlands appears an amalgam of the West Country (Cornwall, Devon etc) and Wales - though I wonder if I'm influenced by Tyrion's Welsh accent in the audiobook!


King's Landing is a hotter, humid London. The area leading north from there (Duskendale, Maidenpool, Saltpans etc) always feels very much like East Anglia to me.


The Vale has an Irish look to it on the map - the fingers looks a bit like Kerry.


Iron Islands are definitely Viking of sorts and/or Manx.


I can never get a sense of the Stormlands - kind of an in-between land.


The Southern section of Westeros definitely feels non-British though: Dorne certainly feels Spanish and I can see the argument for calling The Reach 'French.' Having said that its warmer climate and 'garden' feel also makes me think of the Southeast of England (Kent - 'the garden of England').


Braavos in my mind is a blend of Amsterdam and Venice.


Slaver's Bay seems Middle Eastern.


I always think of Volantis as like Constantinople.


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