What Country Does Each Kingdom Represent Historically?

[Stannis the Great]

braavos-venice

Braavos, to me, seems more like Amsterdam than Venice. Amsterdam has more canals than Venice, is located on the North-West of a continent, has the same climate and has a similar attitude to religious freedom.

I'd say that the Riverlands, the Westerlands, the Vale and the North seem to represent the British Isles (with Riverlands being the South, the North being Scotland). King's Landing definitely seems to be Byzantine (going by the TV series). The Valyrian Freehold resembles Rome. The Reach is France (south of Normandy) while the Stormlands are the Burgundians. Dorne has a Muslim/Spanish aspect to it.

[Johnny The Longshanks]

I like some of these ideas but I don't think each kingdom is meant to represent anything specific. I think there's bits and pieces taken from all of Western European history and mixed together. Things like the Wall being Hadrians Wall or the Titan of Braavos being the Colossus of Rhodes aren't meant to be taken as "thinly veiled analogies" for real places.

Not that that was the point of this topic but I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think much about it.

[3 Headed Direwolf]

Well I've heard GRRM say that the North was England, specifically pre-Norman England. I've also heard him say that the Iron Islands was a Viking culture (not necessarily Scandanvian there are slight differences) and that the Dothraki are a mix of Native American and Mongolian. That beign said I definitley see the similarites between the Vale and Scotland and Dorne and Spain. Essos seems to be a mix of Middle Eastern cultures, some Asia Minor, some Persia, and some Byzantium. The Westerlands could be Norman England with some French/Dutch/German thrown in. When the people of the Riverlands are described (like the Tullys with their red hair and green eyes) I think Irish but they sound more middle ages German state to me. The Valyarian Empire is most likely Rome with an Atlantis-twist throne in. The Reach is definately a middle ages France I don't see anyway around that. I also like the comparison of The Stormlands/Baltic region, makes a lot of sense. The Wildlings sound more of a germanic tribe to me as oppose to Celtic, mainly because of their location. The Seven Kingdoms in general do come off as some sort of Holy Roman Empire where they're more of a loose confederacy of countries as oppose to one strictly governed.

[ser jtankian xhoror]

Iron Islands : Vikings

Dorne : Iberian peninsula

Vale : Sweden in 18th century

Reach : France after Cardinal Richelieu, very ambitious. Thanks to high population with weak enemies all around.

North : Russia. Hard to occupy and control. Not that into European culture.

Stormlands : Prussia without realpolitik.

Westerlands: England. Rich and powerful. Controls the world trade, hard to provoke without her willing. Relatively small but most efficient army. Skilled politicans and commanders. War is the last thing she wants, because she has a lot to lose. But if it is required, she can give them the hell.

Riverlands : German states after 30 years war. Big potential as an unified state but very strong feudalism that comes with a lot of weakness. Againist themselves and other states. Main theater of wars of continent. War of five kings is equal to Napoleonic wars for them.

[Kade Blackwood]

I always viewed the North as Scotland-ish, especially given that crannogs were actually quite common there (though, in fairness, they were also common in Ireland). King's Landing area would be England-ish. North of the Wall/Wildling-country I've viewed as Irish; while there are more Scots per capita with red hair we always associate red hair with Irish. And (at least in America) there has always been this view that the Irish were fiercely independent like the Wildlings are.

By contrast, the High Garden I see as France, with their wines and haughtiness and Dorne being Spain with its arid sands, spicy foods and horses. And the fact that much was made in "ye Olden Tymes" of marriages of English kings to Spanish queens. The Ironborn seem to be very clearly Viking-like.

Once crossing the Sea... it gets tricky there. Historically, the Romans came to conquer the British Isles, so on a level Valaryia strikes me as Greco-Roman. Related to that idea, an intriguing (probably coincidental) tidbit of history is that one of the victorious Roman Legions in the conquest of Britannia was the 20th Legion from Valeria known as Legio XX Valeria Victrix.

For reasons I can't explain, I always imagine Syrio and Braavosi speaking English with a think Italian accent. Meereen with its pyramids I've always viewed as vaguely Egyptian/North African. Same with the Yunkai. The Dothraki... I haven't quite placed them. Maybe Native American since they have this very obvious connection to horses that didn't seem to be a distinct part of Mongolian culture (the only other culture with which I associate them).

It's important to note that such strict associations probably don't go very far. Likely GRRM sees influences in many places. While I might view the North as fairly Scottish in nature (as they have cultural similarities to England as the North of Westeros has to the South), if we operate from the perspective that Hadrian's wall was the inspiration for The Wall (it was) coupled with the fact that the Romans were never able to bring Scotland under their control, one might argue that North of the Wall is Scotland. Then it just becomes nitpicking and semantics. I prefer, instead, to use the point of reference in my head when reading as opposed to getting too wrapped up in it.

[eyeheartsansa]

heeeeeeey now, we dun butcher English that bad up here!! now what the deep-South does to the language, thats a whole different story

besides, on the logic of crazy cheap workforce with a butchered language, anywhere on Mexican border would win then

Here in Greenville, SC it is just as bad because we are plagued with new yorkers down here.

[mediocre cheese]

Here in Greenville, SC it is great because we are blessed with enterprising and intelligent new yorkers down here, who improve our mundane white-bread existence.

Fixed that for you. Seriously though, how would you get many new yorkers in greenville? Clemson?

[d_mess]

Valeria is Rome.

Ghis is ancient Sumeria.

Bravos is Venice or Aragon.

Iron Island are viking obviously

The North is semi-pagan northern Europe

The Riverlands are Scotland

The Vale is somewhere in the Alps, Germany maybe.

The West is England

Dorne is Spain

The Reach and the Stormlands could both be part of France.

[eyeheartsansa]

Fixed that for you. Seriously though, how would you get many new yorkers in greenville? Clemson?

:lol:

They usually move to Florida first and then wind up here because it's nicer cheaper. Luckily some of them open pizzerias, so for this I'm grateful! It is actually a pretty nice area though; there are things I would change but overall I am content.

[voodooqueen126]

On the assumption that Martinworld is much bigger than planet Earth and from a purely geographic perspective (extreme version and a theory I don't really hold unless Stannis becomes king at the end:

Westeros:

the United Kingdom

Wildlings=Scotland

Skagos=Orkneys

The North=Northern England

The Iron Islands=Ireland

all of these people are First Men and once spoke the Old Tongue, they were also subsequently conquered by a waves of foreign invaders like the Celts (in this case the Andals)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/47598-on-language-in-westeros/page__st__20

however I argue on that thread that the Old Tongue that Northerners spoke, and the Wildlings still speak is actually an Anglo-Saxon language (on the basis of names such as Tormund, Karlon, Rodrik, Eddard, Magnar, Sigorn as well as many Iron Islander names (which are pretty similar to Danish kinds of names) as well as the use of runes. So it's almost as if instead of the Celts being the first to settle great Britain and be conquered by the Anglo-Saxons the Anglo-Saxons where the first to settle Great Britain and be conquered by the Celts (since many of the Andals have names like Catelyn, Brynden, Duncan, Kevan as well as red hair which is after all the Celtic gene)...

The Riverlands=Midlands

Westerlands=Cornwall

The Crownlands=Home Counties

The Vale=East Anglia

Dorne=Wales

The Reach=Surrey

The Stormlands=Essex or Devon

Stepstones=Channel Islands

Essos

Lorath=Normandy

Braavos=Bruges (in climate with the canals)

Qohor=Strasbourg

Norvos=Avignon or Rouen

Volantis=Marseilles

Pentos=Caen

Myr=Bordeaux

Tyrosh=Sardinia

Lys= Corsica

Dothraki=Cossacks occupying what should be Germany

no spain or portugal existing (although the Dornisha are culturally similar to the Spanish during spains liberal period)

Valyria=looks like Italy

Slavers Bay=Greece

Quarth=Constantinople with the straights of Quarth being the Dardanelles

Sothorys=Africa and the delta on the ADWD map even looks like the Nile Delta

Asshai=Israel, it seems R'hllor worship comes from Asshai, although their religion is more like an evil version of Zoroastrianism, who knows maybe if we ever see someone from Asshai we will actually discover that they don't hold the Azor Ahai myth, don't burn people alive, aren't dualists and would find Melisandre pretty disgusting....

It should be noted that the R'hllorism is already quite popular in Essos and is slowly spreading in Westeros because of the righteous example of Thoros of Myr... So actually the song of Ice and FIre is not set in the late middle ages, but actually in the late classical period, with Melisandre and Thoros are like St Patrick, St Columba, Benerro is Pope Gregory I and Moqorro is Augustine of Canterbury. All the choas and horror that the Others will cause will bring on the Dark Ages...

Yi Ti, Jhogos Nhai and Bhayasabhad are to the east of Asshai an we think that they're closer because Daenerys has poor geographical knowledge.

But I am not really comfortable with this theory.

[soob]

It's a massive hodgepodge. Most are more or less random combinations of a couple real places at various times. The big exception seems to be the ironmen, who are pretty much straight up vikings.

[Lorent Tyrell]

The North: Britain

The Riverlands: German (particularly the lowlands completely ravaged during the Thirty Years' War)

The Westerlands: France

The Reach: Italy

The Stormlands: Romania/ Bulgaria

The Eyrie: Austria

Dorne: Spain

Iron Islands: Scandinavia

Braavos: Venice/ Amsterdam/ Rhodes

Other Free cities: Genoa, Greece

Valyria: Ancient Rome/ Mycenae/ Minoan civilization

[Lorent Tyrell]

Also, the Slaver Cities are a pretty close parallel to the North African cities of Algiers, Tunis, Oran, Tripoli etc which were major comptoirs in the slave trade. Also, like the slaver cities, North Africa was once part of a great empire (the Carthaginian Empire) but its capital (Carthage= Ghis) was destroyed by the Romans (=Valyria)

[daenarys]

why is everyone thinking that North = one of the UK island, common on, I know it s cold up there but still ... I will more go with the guy saying Scandinavia or Russia.

[daenarys]

On the assumption that Martinworld is much bigger than planet Earth and from a purely geographic perspective (extreme version and a theory I don't really hold unless Stannis becomes king at the end:

Westeros:

the United Kingdom

Wildlings=Scotland

Skagos=Orkneys

The North=Northern England

The Iron Islands=Ireland

I think it s the post I like the least : the map is way too big compared to UK and people are way too different in Westeros. Even physically.

Martin is a big fan of various books about european history and not only history of british island, he s inspiration is way beyond the history of UK. ( He is for example said to be a big fan of Les rois maudits by Druot a french author ) I think he is less anglo-saxon centered than some of his readers.

[Oberyn Sand]

How on Earth does Slaver's Bay(Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai, etc) not resemble Egypt? Eh? When I think Ghiscari cities, I think Egypt. I don't know about you guys. ._.;

[Neriwyn]

How on Earth does Slaver's Bay(Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai, etc) not resemble Egypt? Eh? When I think Ghiscari cities, I think Egypt. I don't know about you guys. ._.;

Maybe because of the pyramids ?? ^_^

[Oberyn Sand]

Maybe because of the pyramids ?? ^_^

Yes, that's why I've always thought that Ghiscari culture = Egyptian. I think you misread my post. T.T

[Lorent Tyrell]

How on Earth does Slaver's Bay(Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai, etc) not resemble Egypt? Eh? When I think Ghiscari cities, I think Egypt. I don't know about you guys. ._.;

I don't think the Egypt parallel works beyond the pyramids. Especially since the Meereneese use the pyramids as palaces whereas the Egyptians used them as tombs and monuments.

I think there is a much closer parallel (see post #33) between the slaver cities and the North African cities of the barbary coast (Algiers, Oran, Tunis etc.) based on Ghiscari history, geography, and the fact of slave-trading.

I think he is less anglo-saxon centered than some of his readers.

I agree with this comment 100%. There is a lot more to medieval (and ancient, early modern) history than Britain (and northern Europe generally)

[JonHo]

The North and the Wall definitely Scandinavia.