Would YOU have pushed Bran out the window?

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Jaime gets a lot of criticism for pushing Bran out the window. When you ask someone if they would have done the same, most would say not. But then, would you have been caught banging your sis, the King's wife, in an abandoned old tower? Most would say not.

It's easy to say Ned is a better character or so, because he would never have [tried to] killed a little boy. But he would never have been involved in a scandal such as banging sister in the first place. Obviously, one bad deed has led to another. Perhaps Jaime did not actually want to hurt Bran, but consider his lover and sister would have been killed, alongside him, if he had not. It was a choice between a boy you did not know, and the life of the person who is most precious in the world to you.

So the question is, if you were literally caught banging your sis, the King's wife, by a boy, would you have protected yourself and her, or done the honorable thing and got beheaded?

And also, do you blame Jaime for his choice?

There's a lot of people think he's such a bad guy. But the only flaw I see in him is incest (which was not so uncommon in eras such as that, anyway). The other things (pushing Bran, breaking his oath in the Kingsguard) were just unfortunate events, not his fault - damned if you do and damned if you don't. I don't blame him for having to make tough decisions that no one would want to make.

[mediocre cheese]

I don't blame him for not wanting his incest to become known. That could get both him and sister killed. But I do blame him for being a moron. As Cersei says they could have intimidated/convinced bran into keeping it quite. Bran is seven, he doesn't understand what sex is (he thought jaime and cersei were wrestling at first). Bran's probably been naked around his sisters dozens of times, the idea that what jaime was doing was treasonous incest and not something more innocent would not have occurred to him.

Stupidity is not a defense for attempted murder.

[soob]

It's not just Jamie and his sister that'd get it, it's their three kids.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

[edit] never mind

[ARYa_Nym]

Didn't he want to reveal it later on post Robert? & even worse marry Cersei? So Jaime, Cersei, and the kids would be killed on his terms.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

I don't blame him for not wanting his incest to become known. That could get both him and sister killed. But I do blame him for being a moron. As Cersei says they could have intimidated/convinced bran into keeping it quite. Bran is seven, he doesn't understand what sex is (he thought jaime and cersei were wrestling at first). Bran's probably been naked around his sisters dozens of times, the idea that what jaime was doing was treasonous incest was not something more innocent would not have occurred to him.

Stupidity is not a defense for attempted murder.

But that's still risky. Maybe Bran would have kept quiet. But the day would come when Bran realized the truth, when he was 11 or older or so. Then the realm would pay for it and maybe Jaime and Cersei would die anyway. The only way to be one hundred percent sure his lover was safe was what happened.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Didn't he want to reveal it later on post Robert? & even worse marry Cersei? So Jaime, Cersei, and the kids would be killed on his terms.

Perhaps they would not be killed. This is whilst the Lannisters rule Kings Landing. High Garden may still be convinced to back them - I mean, it was an honor to marry an inbred Targ, why not an inbred Lannister? There's no reason to believe this would have got them killed.

Jaime is not the best thinker. No. But he wanted to marry Cersei for love. He was no longer ashamed. This is a different topic.

[ARYa_Nym]

Perhaps they would not be killed. This is whilst the Lannisters rule Kings Landing. High Garden may still be convinced to back them - I mean, it was an honor to marry an inbred Targ, why not an inbred Lannister? There's no reason to believe this would have got them killed.

Jaime is not the best thinker. No. But he wanted to marry Cersei for love. He was no longer ashamed. This is a different topic.

I think it applies here. Whether Bran revealed it or he did it's the same end result. They committed high treason against King Robert. The Lannisters ruled through the claim of the children being Baratheons.

[Alexia]

Basically, Jaime got caught committing high treason and attempted to murder the witness to his criminal activity, despite the fact that said witness was only seven years old.

No, I would not have pushed Bran out the window but then again I'm not a self-obsessed narcissist, traitor, murderer, and criminal endangering the lives of my entire family through sheer stupidity in pursuit of personal pleasure.

[Bourne]

Yeah, no question. And honestly, if anybody says they wouldn't they're either lying to themselves or haven't thought it through.

They just got caught committing treason. If Bran tells anyone people will die. First off, I don't think anyone who's ever been in love could honestly say they wouldn't choose the life of there loved one over the life of a random boy you hardly knew. Even more so, I think any parent would without question kill to save their child's life. But those aren't the only people who would die if that secret came out. Do you honestly think Tywin Lannister would sit idly by while his children and grandchildren were killed? No. He would go to war. In all probability thousands would die if Bran lets that secret out.

It's the life of thousands of innocents vs. the life of one boy. It's definitely not a savory thing to have to do, but I don't know how anyone could pick the life of the one boy over the many. Even if you don't think there would be a war (which there would), you would still have to pick Bran's life of that of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. Admittedly Joffrey is a prick, but would anybody really choose the life of a strange boy over their own children?

And to the crowd who says they should have just gotten Bran to keep it to himself, that would never work. Seven year-old's don't keep secrets. You know what a child does when he's told not to tell anybody a secret? They tell the secret. Even if he had no idea what was going on (hopefully doesn't understand sex quite yet), all it would take is him mentioning to anyone about finding the twins "wrestling naked" or whatever. And even if he does manage to keep the secret for a while, what happens when he realizes what they were doing? Eventually he's going to learn what sex is and it's going to click what the Lannisters were doing. You don't think he's gonna feel the need to tell someone that huge piece of news? He'll tell his father or mother, or somebody.

Once Bran discovers them in the tower it's a time bomb. Eventually it's going to come out. They only way to stop that from happening is to kill him.

And yes, I guess it's not completely impossible that Bran does keep the secret. But the odds off that are extremely slim. You have no way of knowing if he'll keep the secret and there's almost no chance he can. Are you going to gamble the live's of thousands vs. the life of one based of 1000-1 odds? If so, you should never visit a casino or run a country.

[Queen Cersei I]

Hey, after being caught screwing your twin sister by some peeping little brat, what other choice do you have?

That's generally what I do, when I've been in that sort of situation in the past. :leaving:

[Timur Khal]

What would I do? Well, of course I'd push him out the window. The window needs more friends. But a single climbing child wouldn't be enough...no, it wouldn't be enough for the window, MY window....it needs blood, yes, the window wants blood. So I would bring more friends for my window, many friends. Like Rodrick. And Rickon. And Sansa. And Arya. And Summer. And Hodor. And Dany. The window wants it, and the window gets what the window wants. Including Cersei, for the window desires it.

ALL GLORY TO THE WINDOW.

[lyvyathan]

No. Pushing Bran out of the window carries greater risk too. What if someone or a couple of people were down below the tower or within the castle had witnessed it? A boy, Ned Stark's boy esp, dangerously climbing a tower in all likelihood would have likely captured the attention from onlookers.

Pushing Bran out of the window was an impetuous act. I can see why someone of Jamie's character would do something like that (Jamie after all doesn't think very far.)

[Did he even bother to check and take a look to see if anyone was watching?]

But it would have been better to carry him inside - give him a good lecture / scolding for climbing towers and make sure his memory of the incident is more clouded with the fact that he nearly fell and Jamie helped to save him.

[if you read the passage carefully it was obvious that Bran had nearly fell by himself and it was Jamie was reached out and saved him from the fall]

If the matter gets brought up to King Robert - the testimony of a 7 year old boy won't amount to much against the power of the Lannisters.

[i mean what will Bran say? - I was climbing that broken high tower - the one that you told me not to climb a thousand times - engaging in highly dangerous activity and I nearly fell - but Jamie saved me. Oh, and I saw him doing something with the Queen??? The boy would have been glad Jamie and the Queen promised not to tell Ned and Catelyn about the incident and to save him from a good spanking.]

].

Pushing Bran out of the window carries more risk imho.

[Melpomene]

It is Jaime's own fault - a child shouldn't be punished for his idiocy.

If they didn't want to be caught in the first place, they shouldn't have ravished each other in front of an open window, let alone bang each other at all - particularly in Winterfell, where they are the guests and lack knowledge in the surroundings/architecture and plenty of people are out and about due to the hosts and the king's folks blending in populace. Oh yeah, ideal time and place to do some bro and sis lovin'.

So nope, I honestly would not push a child out the window. I'll probably would just swear and kick myself nonstop, then find a way to work around the situation.

On a side note, even if Bran discovered the meaning of sex later on in his later years, his knowledge of the event would prove useless anyhow on the account that Winterfell fell, everyone thinks he is dead, and he has gone waaaayyyy up north. The problem would technically have solved itself anyhow.

An even if none of that happened, there is a chance that people wouldn't have believed Bran. It is one little boy versus a bunch of powerful, manipulative adults.

And think of it this way too: To say that Bran's telling of what he saw would cause a war. Well, him NOT telling caused a war anyway, and probably even a worse one based on the nature of the event. The Starks suspect fowl play -> Assasin doesn't help make that suspicion better -> Parents search for answers -> Ned goes to KL, discovers truth by Cersei -> Catelyn arrests Tyrion -> Add a letter, some tension, betrayal, a beheading -> War. Thousands die.

Once again, it's their own fault. They were both narcissistic, cold and foolish people. If any should be punished or face consequences for their actions, it is them. If they didn't want to risk so much, they wouldn't have been selfish at that given time.

[eyeheartsansa]

you can't argue that Jaime was saving lives or preventing a war by doing this; pushing bran out of the window set off another chain of events where people died. I can imagine pushing a kid out a window about as much as I can imagine screwing my sister!

[King Ned Stark]

No, I would never throw a seven year old out of a tower window.

[Queen Cersei I]

If the matter gets brought up to King Robert - the testimony of a 7 year old boy won't amount to much against the power of the Lannisters.

I disagree. As Cersei notes, Robert loathed her, and was itching for a reason to get rid of her and replace her with a new young woman whom he could love.

As Varys notes, Robert has made himself very good at not seeing what was in front of him. However, even he couldn't have failed to notice, on some level, the yellow hair and green eyes of all three children, the fact that the children do not resemble him even remotely, the fact that his wife spends an inordinate amount of time alone with her brother, the fact that there is perhaps something "weird" between the two, that Cersei would clearly relish the prospect of screwing him over in any way she could etc. If he were to be told by his old friend Ned Stark's seven-year-old son that he'd seen Cersei and her brother wrestling naked while he was out hunting, all of these things might just occur to him simultaneously, and long repressed suspicions previously lying dormant would bubble to the surface. All of the pieces would come together, and he'd see the truth. And, incidentally, he would get his long wished for excuse to rid himself of his hateful, nagging wife.

Bran even suggesting to King Robert that he'd seen what he'd seen would have been disastrous, imo.

Robert was indeed afraid of Tywin Lannister. However, he was even more afraid of having his pride wounded and being played for a fool.

[Shaggydog Stark]

No, I would not push a child out of a window probably because I wouldn't be having sex with my brother in the first place! :stillsick:

[TeamDanyArya]

I would have to say, no, I wouldn't have thrown Bran out the window. I think Cersei was right to freak out when Jaime did it. Jaime can be impulsive and not think things through especially when it comes to Cersei. She's definetly the more calculating, sinister, and thinking of the two. She's more like Tyrion in that respect. I think it would have been better to just tidy yourself up and scare the crap out of Bran into not revealing what you think he saw (we as the reader know that Bran didn't realize they were having sex since he is 7).

[Nausicaä]

If they didn't want to be caught in the first place, they shouldn't have ravished each other in front of an open window, let alone bang each other at all - particularly in Winterfell, where they are the guests and lack knowledge in the surroundings/architecture and plenty of people are out and about due to the hosts and the king's folks blending in populace. Oh yeah, ideal time and place to do some bro and sis lovin'.

MTE. If they couldn't wait even a little bit, they should have given more thought to where in Winterfell they were screwing. Kids play in abandoned buildings all the time and any guard or servant could have walked in on them if he heard/thought he heard noise coming from the tower. They would probably be safer having sex in Cersei's chambers with windows shut and the door locked after she told the servants that she was feeling ill and was not to be disturbed or even the crypts. But no, out of all places they pick that tower. And later have sex in the King's bed while the King is sleeping not two steps from them. Just how bloody stupid can you be?