Too many half-witted characters being added

[lyvyathan]

Only because everyone (Robb) is too stupid to follow her advice.

Ah, you mean the time she decided to kidnap a member of the most powerful House in the 7 Kingdoms based on the say-so of a childhood friend, or that time she helped a very important enemy hostage escape based on a snowball's chance in hell - which also helped to undermine Robb's fragile alliance, or that time she demanded to bury some corpses whilst being chased by mountain tribes... yeah, if that's your idea of genius, I can see how you came to your conclusions.

BTW, I never said Robb was correct in going to the Frey's stronghold. But guess who brokered that happy alliance? :D

[voodooqueen126]

Oberyn has more than 9 children. He has 9 daughters he acknowledges. We never hear of his sons, but I'm quite sure there are some out there. Even if their father displays no interest in them. Jaime said something along the lines that he has more bastards than Robert.

I think Oberyn is not producing male sperm, which is why he has no sons.

I think Oberyn knows that he can't have sons, and this is why he never felt a pressing need to marry.

[Evamitchelle]

Ah, you mean the time she decided to kidnap a member of the most powerful House in the 7 Kingdoms based on the say-so of a childhood friend, or that time she helped a very important enemy hostage escape based on a snowball's chance in hell - which also helped to undermine Robb's fragile alliance, or that time she demanded to bury some corpses whilst being chased by mountain tribes... yeah, if that's your idea of genius, I can see how you came to your conclusions.

BTW, I never said Robb was correct in going to the Frey's stronghold. But guess who brokered that happy alliance? :D

So Cat was played by LF, who wasn't ? Littlefinger manipulated everyone in the books, Varys being one of the possible exception : Lysa, Jon Arryn, Ned, Sansa, Tyrion, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey etc. The Lannisters were in fact involved, and Tyrion could have least have been used as a hostage if Lysa hadn't messed it all up. As for Robb's alliance, it was already shaky because he broke his word and lost the north, two actions that resulted from ignoring Cat (she forged the alliance between Frey and Stark because otherwise he'd never have been able to cross anyway, and she told him to keep Theon close, which he refused to do). If Robb hadn't beheaded Lord Karstark they could have been handled better, and the RW was almost exclusively Frey and Bolton anyway. Also, I never said anything about her being a genius, I said she was capable, and Jaime is not spelled Jamie.

[Stannis the Great]

I think Oberyn is not producing male sperm, which is why he has no sons.

I think Oberyn knows that he can't have sons, and this is why he never felt a pressing need to marry.

Is that even possible? I know the sperm chromosome determines the gender of the baby but I didn't know that it was possible for all a man's sperm cells to only have the X chromosome (to only produce female children). Then again this is a fictional series where magic is plausible so introducing a scientific explanation may not be warranted.

[voodooqueen126]

Is that even possible? I know the sperm chromosome determines the gender of the baby but I didn't know that it was possible for all a man's sperm cells to only have the X chromosome (to only produce female children). Then again this is a fictional series where magic is plausible so introducing a scientific explanation may not be warranted.

haven't you met one of those family's where there are all girls? I think one of the Brackens has the same problem (Lord Blackwood specifically says that he doubts Bracken's bastard is his)

[lyvyathan]

see: Asha.

I did mention Asha in the original post. And I did use the plural term "more". Keep up :P

[lyvyathan]

I guess the problem I'm having is that I just can't see number of sexual partners have any significant correlation with competence, wit, ingenuity or capability. In fact, I would argue in a world like Westeros, sexual power is one of the few powers a woman with wit and ingenuity can wield.

With the exception of Dorne, women cannot inherit unless they have no brothers older or younger, in which case their husband actually inherits. Not every woman is built like Brienne, or can hold her own in fight with a grown man. We kinda got the shaft on upper-body strength. (nor can every women pull off Drag King like Allera Sand well enough to get into the Citadel) So, if you're not physically strong and you don't want to get married, your choice is the Silent Sisters, the Seven or prostitution.

I think mayhaps you aim a little too low. Apart from new characters like Asha and the Queen of Thorns, where are the competent women? If the women had to resort to using their sexual charms to get their own way, mayhaps their intelligence is a little lacking? Afterall, seduction is 90% in the mind.

You mentioned Brienne - but what is she? A naive Amazonian character who has exceptionally strong muscles but is not terribly smart.

I've already mentioned the Queen of Thorns - but she really only gets a brief mention. I'm looking forward to reading more of her story arc in the next books. But considering GRRM's bias, I expect to be disappointed.

Obviously, there is no power in church for women, so if you're ambitious and intelligent that isn't going to work for you. So, depending on your rank and circumstances, its going to be arranged marriage or prostitution. The only real difference between the two being monogamy (and then just maybe).

In male dominated societies through out history women have had to use sex to gain power. Have you heard of Aspasia? She was a Greek courtesan that taught Socrates rhetoric. The only reason she was allowed to walk around outdoors without a male escort and learn to read were because she was a prostitute. Such things would be unseemly in a married woman.

Here is a cute short list of some of the women who changed the world with their bodies because they weren't permitted any other resources. http://www.cracked.c...se-history.html

Yes, I've heard about Aspasia. But have you also heard of Christine de Pizan, a military strategist writer, Elizabeth 1st (the Queen who never married), Joan of Arc and

? They were all intelligent capable and influential women .

BTW, there is a difference between a monogamous marriage and adopting a lifestyle of promiscious behavior. :)

Of course, being in a patriachal society limits the role that women could play. But to say that it limits women - period - to the roles of mother, wife, whore is imho disrespectful of the countless numbers of intelligent and highly capable women who successfully navigated through the male-dominated medieval world. Reading their lives would be more interesting than reading about the account of a foolish women like Cersei or Catelyn who when placed in positions of authority proved woefully out of their depths.

Being in a patriarchal society should not have totally hindered the impact that smart women would have adoritly played.

At the very least you should expect that the Sand Snakes being of royal birth - and Doran's own daughter, Arianne Martell - would have been afforded a good education which should have tempered their rash, outspoken, bellicose actions.

You mentioned women's role in church. Well does GRRM explicity write that the Church of the 7 is exactly the same as the Catholic Church and have no strong roles for women? Female Septa play an important role as advisors it would seem. So for now, well we have to tread carefully what we say over the role of women in the Church of the 7.

There is also no correlation between promiscuity and personal worth or competence, so I still really don't understand why calling the Sandsnakes sluts or whores is in anyway relevant or useful.

Hmm, mayhaps. There is a subtle difference between talking to people and getting them to do what you want, and using the same mouth for blow jobs to achieve the same ends. :D To paraphrase Erin Brockovich the latter makes for a more tiring alternative.

For the record, I think people frequently say really sexist things on accident. These ideas are pervasive in most cultures and just slip into the vernacular. When insulting a woman, slut comes to mind quickly and often said without considering what the word really means. I find it easiest for most people to avoid this with the: "would I say this about a man" test. If you would, than you should be okay. If not, its probably sexist.

But that's the way our language is gender coded - certain derogatory terms are usually reserved for a particular sex. I wouldn't call Robert a slut or bitch for example, other terms come to mind, ie dickhead or just a stupid "f@#ker. Theon however, can be called Ramsay's bitch.

I do apologize if you have been offended at the sexist swear words. I'll attempt to refrain from using them in the future.

[lyvyathan]

So Cat was played by LF, who wasn't ? Littlefinger manipulated everyone in the books, Varys being one of the possible exception : Lysa, Jon Arryn, Ned, Sansa, Tyrion, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey etc. The Lannisters were in fact involved, and Tyrion could have least have been used as a hostage if Lysa hadn't messed it all up.

At issue is not so much the fact that Cat was played by LF - but the ease by which LF swayed her.

You also should not credit LF with the blame for much of Catlyn's folly. There was no way he knew that she would encounter Tyrion at the inn and he did not encourage her to kidnap Tyrion. Nowhere do you find any mention that he advised her to kidnap the son of Tywin Lannister, the most important warlord in the 7 Kingdoms - esp. out in the open public.

Kidnapping Tyrion dramatically escalated tensions between House Lannister and Stark. It went from a few impulsive stupid covert actions by a few individuals to practically open warfare thanks to Cat's rash decision. It was obvious to anyone that such an act would led to war. The last time a major hostage was kidnapped at knife point was Lyanna Stark - and everyone in the 7 Kingdoms, including Catelyn, knew how horrible that turned out, esp for the Targaryen Royal Family in King's Landing.

Besides, her rash act was going entirely against her husban's explicit orders - which was to go North in haste to send 200 archers to Moat Catlin and help prepare White Harbor's defences etc.. furthermore taking the road to the Vale precludes the means of swiftly notifying the North to mobilize the defences.

Moreover the fact that Tyrion was kidnapped in public - out in the open - could not stop news reaching the rest of the Lannisters. The inn was full of people - there was absolutely zero possibility that she could silence so many witnesses of her stupid act.

[ARYa_Nym]

I definitely don't think that LF played Cat. Cat and Ned played themselves. Reread their scene with him in KL. Don't give anyone your trust if they won't give you their respect.

[little_horn]

I don't mind because I seem to be completely smitten with every single other main or secondary character anyways, I need someone to NOT like!

[Evamitchelle]

At issue is not so much the fact that Cat was played by LF - but the ease by which LF swayed her.

You also should not credit LF with the blame for much of Catlyn's folly. There was no way he knew that she would encounter Tyrion at the inn and he did not encourage her to kidnap Tyrion. Nowhere do you find any mention that he advised her to kidnap the son of Tywin Lannister, the most important warlord in the 7 Kingdoms - esp. out in the open public.

Kidnapping Tyrion dramatically escalated tensions between House Lannister and Stark. It went from a few impulsive stupid covert actions by a few individuals to practically open warfare thanks to Cat's rash decision. It was obvious to anyone that such an act would led to war. The last time a major hostage was kidnapped at knife point was Lyanna Stark - and everyone in the 7 Kingdoms, including Catelyn, knew how horrible that turned out, esp for the Targaryen Royal Family in King's Landing.

Besides, her rash act was going entirely against her husban's explicit orders - which was to go North in haste to send 200 archers to Moat Catlin and help prepare White Harbor's defences etc.. furthermore taking the road to the Vale precludes the means of swiftly notifying the North to mobilize the defences.

Moreover the fact that Tyrion was kidnapped in public - out in the open - could not stop news reaching the rest of the Lannisters. The inn was full of people - there was absolutely zero possibility that she could silence so many witnesses of her stupid act.

While it's true that LF couldn't have known about Tyrion and Cat meeting by chance at the Crossroads Inn (well, it does seem to be the only inn on that road), I'm pretty convinced that he was rooting for something like this to happen because LF has consistently tried to get rid of Tyrion since Book 1 : there's the fact that he directly lied to Catelyn telling her that the dagger was Tyrion's but if you think about it there's also Lysa's behaviour during Tyrion's "trial". When Tyrion is the Eyrie Lysa basically demands to have him executed because he killed her husband, so you know, the one she poisoned herself. Lysa knows perfectly well that Tyrion is innocent of the crime she's accusing him of, since she committed herself, yet she still seems to really want him dead. Since it's shown in Storm that she's been LF's pawn for over a decade, it seems a pretty clear indication to me that it's LF trying to get rid of Tyrion. Something he successfully did by incriminating him in Joffrey's murder.

The evidence seems to indicate that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, not that she was kidnapped, and what started the war was Aerys asking for Robert and Ned's heads.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

It went from a few impulsive stupid covert actions by a few individuals to practically open warfare thanks to Cat's rash decision. It was obvious to anyone that such an act would led to war.

...and even if someone wants to take the viewpoint that Cat did not see it leading to war, it should at the very least have occurred to her that when she seized Tyrion, the Lannisters had her three-to-one on potential hostages. She certainly knows the Lannisters are ruthless and by now has a good idea of what kind of a straw king Robert is, yet it apparently does not cross her mind what danger she is putting Sansa, Arya and Ned into by her actions. She believes that the Lannisters have already poisoned Jon Arryn (the last man to occupy her husband's present position) and believes that they send men with knives to murder children in their beds. Yet she pauses for not one second to consider their position as she smugly "outwits" Tyrion.

[Tini]

I think Catelyn suffered from the fact that she has always led a sheltered life. Just like Sansa. The rebellion took place elsewhere, and good people always win. It never occurred to her that Ned might not be able to protect himself and his children from the fallout of her actions. He won the last war, too.

[Cruella]

I think she was more concerned that Tyrion would order her killed (in fact, we know she was), then hurry to King's Landing to warn Lannisters that everything is probably known and Cat was in KL to inform Ned, and Lannisters would do as they did (kill Robert etc), except Starks wouldnt even have Tyrion for hostage.

Speaking of which, the war would start in either case as soon as Ned found out about incest. You could argue that Jaime's attack delayed him and helped him therefore to uncover the secret but that was the main cause of war anyway. Ned goes against Cersei, Robert's killed (it was in the plans before), shit hits the fan.

And Catelyn wasn't that sheltered. She was raised to be Hoster's heir for a long while.

Septas: seem pretty powerless position, they teach children and such. We have no reason to think they hold powerful position in church and many reasons to think otherwise.

That said Arianne and Cersei didn't absolutely have to manipulate people sexually. They already had advantage of money and birth, even though Cersei is disadvantaged by her gender, she has other weapons of war, so to speak.

Queen of Thornes power comes through her late husband and now son. Of course without her brain her power wouldn't exist, but it's not like she was could lead Tyrells if she hasn't married their patriarch.

What I think is ironic is that if Author chose to make Tyrion as dangerous as Catelyn suspects he is, and she did NOT take him on the road, and Tyrion would hire Bronn and others to secretly have her killed on her way home, you just know a lot of readers would be all "What a moron! She had him in her hands, what did she think is going to happen? Lannisters just try to kill her son and she just goes on on her merry way, thinking that Tyrion won't use this opportunity to get rid of her? What a moron!"

Another irony is that Tyrion isn't all THAT innocent - he certainly knows what secret could possess his siblings to murder Bran and highly suspects that they did. Now, suspicion doesn't make him guilty but he knows of incest/treason. Theoretically, Tyrion is a right person to question.

[Tini]

And Catelyn wasn't that sheltered. She was raised to be Hoster's heir for a long while.

She was sheltered. She was less naive than her syster Lysa but still not confronted with the realities of the rebellion. Others were off to war, she stayed at home and fulfilled her duty producing an heir for her husband. Which would have been her main duty even as Hoster's heir - producing male offspring to carry on the family traditions.

[lyvyathan]

While it's true that LF couldn't have known about Tyrion and Cat meeting by chance at the Crossroads Inn (well, it does seem to be the only inn on that road), I'm pretty convinced that he was rooting for something like this to happen because LF has consistently tried to get rid of Tyrion since Book 1 : there's the fact that he directly lied to Catelyn telling her that the dagger was Tyrion's but if you think about it there's also Lysa's behaviour during Tyrion's "trial". When Tyrion is the Eyrie Lysa basically demands to have him executed because he killed her husband, so you know, the one she poisoned herself. Lysa knows perfectly well that Tyrion is innocent of the crime she's accusing him of, since she committed herself, yet she still seems to really want him dead. Since it's shown in Storm that she's been LF's pawn for over a decade, it seems a pretty clear indication to me that it's LF trying to get rid of Tyrion. Something he successfully did by incriminating him in Joffrey's murder.

We're talking about Catelyn's actions here not what Lysa or even LF did or planned to do with Tyrion.

The fact that it took LF a simple bold faced lie to cause Cat to embark on the worse thought out plan shows the level of Cat's incompetence. Other events such as Lysa's behavior, Tyrion ingenuity, and Bronn's capabilities as a fighter are secondary matters to the issue.

However what is important is how Catelyn reacted to the new information - ie her sister was batty as hell and displayed a level of insincerity regarding the Lannister plot - coupled with Tyrion's rebuttal of the evidence, including his heroic actions which saved her from being herself kidnapped by the Mountain Clans.

If Cat had gone to Tyrion after that awful talk with her sister - and conspired to return him back safely to Tywin Lannister with a full apology I'd have given her full marks. Double marks if she somehow arranged for a properly armed escort to take him safely down the Vale.

But the fact that she just showed absolutely no reflection or remorse for her actions (Tyrion's walk down the Vale which was practically a death sentence) shows a rather less than capable and responsible person.

The evidence seems to indicate that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, not that she was kidnapped, and what started the war was Aerys asking for Robert and Ned's heads.

Evidence? Mayhaps, the wiki entry for it is ambiguous. But whether he kidnapped her or eloped is actually not important in this argument. As far as 99.99% of people in Westeros are concerned - Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. And that (assumed) act led to the terrible war which resulted in the Targaryen family being wiped out at King's Landing. Well, that's what 99.99% of people in Westeros think :D

(We should always try and judge the characters based on the valid information they had - and in this case, its obvious that the last known major abduction was the spark which caused the war.)

Catelyn was fully aware of the consequences of kidnapping, yet she persisted in that folly which led to House Lannister mobilizing their forces earlier - not to mention jeopardizing the lives of her two precious daughters and husband in KL.

What do you call a person who embarks on a hazardous course of actions, knowing the dangers involved and the extreme unlikelihood of success - based upon poor evidence, dismal reasoning, and when practically everyone is telling her so?

Its not as if GRRM leaves us with no clues. He practically hangs neon lights signposting Catelyn's irrational behavior.

[lyvyathan]

...and even if someone wants to take the viewpoint that Cat did not see it leading to war, it should at the very least have occurred to her that when she seized Tyrion, the Lannisters had her three-to-one on potential hostages. She certainly knows the Lannisters are ruthless and by now has a good idea of what kind of a straw king Robert is, yet it apparently does not cross her mind what danger she is putting Sansa, Arya and Ned into by her actions. She believes that the Lannisters have already poisoned Jon Arryn (the last man to occupy her husband's present position) and believes that they send men with knives to murder children in their beds. Yet she pauses for not one second to consider their position as she smugly "outwits" Tyrion.

I totally agree.

The problem with Cat is that she suffers from severe mental myopia. She sees one problem, one solution and goes for it. Never mind the bigger picture, more practical solutions or just common sense caution. That's why she gives absolutely no consideration to

1. her daughters/husband in KL

2. the extremely hazardous journey to the Vale

3. the extremely weak evidence she possesses regarding the "Lannister conspiracy"

It was the same when she released Jamie Lannister in an extremely unwise, ill-conceived plot to save Arya and Sansa which had even a poorer chance of success.

She had a problem - she now wants to rescue her two daughters because her neglected two sons are dead or so she thinks

Her solution - exchange Jamie for them.

Problem - Robb won't consent to the exchange until Tywin sweetens the deal

Her solution - conspire to free enemy prisoner, and use one female soldier and an old knight to transport Jamie across hostile territories back to K.L. in the hope that they will honor the arrangement.

Cat's career as a political leader is practically bookmarked by the two follies - Tyrion's kidnap and the plot to let Jamie escape. But i find it bemusing that there are readers who defend her actions.

[lyvyathan]

I think she was more concerned that Tyrion would order her killed (in fact, we know she was), then hurry to King's Landing to warn Lannisters that everything is probably known and Cat was in KL to inform Ned, and Lannisters would do as they did (kill Robert etc), except Starks wouldnt even have Tyrion for hostage.

Kidnapping Tyrion - the despised freak son of Tywin Lannister -doesn't make her or her beautiful daughters+husband any safer. Its a simple balance sheet equation.

When she decided to kidnap Tyrion - she was in "easy ride to Riverrun", her father's castle. Game of Thrones page 277. If she had any fears about her safety - all she had to do was to proclaim herself and and ask for help and an armed escort of knights to take her to Riverrun - not the longer more dangerous route to the Vale.

Speaking of which, the war would start in either case as soon as Ned found out about incest. You could argue that Jaime's attack delayed him and helped him therefore to uncover the secret but that was the main cause of war anyway. Ned goes against Cersei, Robert's killed (it was in the plans before), shit hits the fan.

Yeah, that incest thing was a ticking time-bomb.

What I think is ironic is that if Author chose to make Tyrion as dangerous as Catelyn suspects he is, and she did NOT take him on the road, and Tyrion would hire Bronn and others to secretly have her killed on her way home, you just know a lot of readers would be all "What a moron! She had him in her hands, what did she think is going to happen? Lannisters just try to kill her son and she just goes on on her merry way, thinking that Tyrion won't use this opportunity to get rid of her? What a moron!"

Another irony is that Tyrion isn't all THAT innocent - he certainly knows what secret could possess his siblings to murder Bran and highly suspects that they did. Now, suspicion doesn't make him guilty but he knows of incest/treason. Theoretically, Tyrion is a right person to question.

If Tyrion was indeed dangerous as charged - I still find it no cause for Cat to kidnap him. I only blame the characters for their actions based upon the information they had at the time. And I don't think she had the right information to do what she did.

Question a person is not the same as kidnapping the person and transporting him across a perilous journey across hostile territory crowded with dangerous animals and murderous mountain clans tribe.

If she really was genuine in her desire to arrest Tyrion - she should have taken him to Riverrun and then brought him back to King's Landing to face "the King's Justice."

All she really wanted was justice for her injured son Bran. LF fingered Tyrion - so in a Freudian manner, she sub-consciously tried to have him killed by taking him to the Vale.

"It might be that your death is the point Lannister," Catelyn replied (to Tyrion). (GoT, pg 320)

[Tini]

If she really was genuine in her desire to arrest Tyrion - she should have taken him to Riverrun and then brought him back to King's Landing to face "the King's Justice."

All she really wanted was justice for her injured son Bran. LF fingered Tyrion - so in a Freudian manner, she sub-consciously tried to have him killed by taking him to the Vale.

I don't think she subconsciously tried to get him killed.

If she had taken him to Riverrun, her father would have questioned her decision to kidnap Tyrion. Even if he agreed with her decision, she would have lost her hold on Tyrion at that point. All further actions would have been determined by her father and his men, not by her. And he would have given her an escort home to Winterfell, to make sure she went there without getting involved in more ill-advised schemes.

She didn't know the woman her sister had become but the sister she remembered would never interfere with Catelyn's actions, wouldn't question her competence. So she took him to the Eyrie where she didn't have to fear her father's judgment.

[A wilding]

It looks as if rhetoric is obscuring the facts a little here:

The fact that it took LF a simple bold faced lie to cause Cat to embark on the worse thought out plan shows the level of Cat's incompetence.

Anyone reading this who was not familiar with the books would imagine Catelyn immediately rushed out of KL in search of Tyrion, without even stopping to inform her husband!

However what is important is how Catelyn reacted to the new information - ie her sister was batty as hell and displayed a level of insincerity regarding the Lannister plot - coupled with Tyrion's rebuttal of the evidence, including his heroic actions which saved her from being herself kidnapped by the Mountain Clans.

If Cat had gone to Tyrion after that awful talk with her sister - and conspired to return him back safely to Tywin Lannister with a full apology I'd have given her full marks. Double marks if she somehow arranged for a properly armed escort to take him safely down the Vale.

So because Lysha is batty, and Tyrion has cast doubt on some of the evidence against him, you want Catelyn to try to engineer Tyrion's escape from the Eyrie back to the Lannisters?

But the fact that she just showed absolutely no reflection or remorse for her actions (Tyrion's walk down the Vale which was practically a death sentence) shows a rather less than capable and responsible person.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (The walk down the Vale was of course down to Lysa.) However Catelyn does have a few later doubts as to Tyrion's guilt.

What do you call a person who embarks on a hazardous course of actions, knowing the dangers involved and the extreme unlikelihood of success - based upon poor evidence, dismal reasoning, and when practically everyone is telling her so?

Describing a forced immediate on the spot decision in these terms is rather reaching. I didn't particularly notice people at the inn rushing up to tell her she was being foolish!

Its not as if GRRM leaves us with no clues. He practically hangs neon lights signposting Catelyn's irrational behavior.

What exactly are these neon lights? And as it happens GRRM has expressed surprise that Catelyn is regarded so negatively by some readers.