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The Official Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread


Zar Lannister

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:lol: Zar I just saw this. Trying to gather more sympathy for you're lovely Queen, eh? But, I'll put my take on this:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cersei, I really do. No, I'm not part of those 90%+ who think she's a fucked up bitch. In fact, she is one of the awesomet people in the books. From her POV, it is actually not so hard to feel some sympathy for the poor woman. What if you had been in her situation. In Westeros, almost everything depends on whether you have a penis or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to? She unluckly was born lacking one, and thus, she became who she is. She was shoved into a marragie with a brut who what madly in love with another woman (Lyanna) who had died. He made no secret of the fact that he visted brothels ALL the time. How would you feel in her positon? People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has survived people. That more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she has played the game of thrones well. People call her a whore. That word has become rather over-used hasn't it. In all her life time, Cersei has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters that can't deny that. So she's short-sighted, paranoid, vain, narcissistic, incestuous, greedy, power hungry, manipulative, vindictive, and petty. She wasn't born like this, she was shaped by the world around her.

And to quote someone from net:

"She’s a seductress as a weapon, but it comes at huge personal cost; her body is a battleground and a cage and always defined as one. We know exactly the terms of her physical give-and-take; she’s not a libertine, she’s a goddamn warrior. She’s a lion’s heart wrapped in a woman’s hide and she’s felt that discrepancy since she was born; the act of womanhood is a battle for her, and one that she’s learned to fight incredibly well, but she’s fighting all the time even when the battle cools and the only one left to fight is herself. She is not strategy: she is wildfire. I’ve seen people get angry because she isn’t a strategist, but she’s never been presented as one, not even at her finest. She knows the game inside and out, but a gameswoman does not a strategist make: she understands the terms, but she as a character is never given us as patient or calm or, ever, compromising. She wants power, not because it will let her rule, but for its own sake, because if she gives up struggling for power she gives up the terms of the struggle that defines her entire life and gives herself over to a world trying to shape her into the very things she has defined herself by not being, the very thing the world at large defines as weak. She’s a product of her world: a feminist text in a vicious misogynist mind. She’s unapologetic and cruel but also brave and entirely capable of love. She’s never easy to love but she is ruthlessly human, human in her ruthlessness, jawdropping in her ruthlessness, understandable even in her horror, internally logical even in her external senselessness, a villain and a person and the heroine of her own story even as and even because she is the architect of her own downfall. Functionally perfect narrative being."

And there you have it folks, I think I've done enough ranting :P

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People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has survived people. That more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she has played the game of thrones well.

She has definitely not played the Game of Thrones well. She has always been a pawn of either Littlefinger or Varys. She single-handedly ruined Lannister power at King's Landing by alienating the Tyrells from the start, destroying the economy of Westeros by defaulting on her debts (seriously that is completely stupid in our modern world let alone a fictional world where your creditors are the Iron Bank who finance your rivals to depose you if you don't keep up those payments!) and restored the Faith Militant. Even Robert Baratheon didn't screw up this badly because he actually didn't interfere with his Small Council. The only reason Cersei is alive is because no-one playing the Game of Thrones need her to die. Littlefinger (who explicitly states that she's useless in power) wants her to screw up the Tyrell alliance while Varys removes a massive obstacle to Cersei wielding power. The only person she beat in the Game of Thrones was Eddard Stark and that's because he refused to play it! Even then she was a pawn of Littlefinger's to remove Ned Stark in his attempt to get with Catelyn.

True she's resourceful, cunning and is in a time where with penis comes responsibility but she overestimates her own abilities and that allows her to be used as a pawn in the Game of Thrones.

I love reading the Cersei chapters because they make me laugh but as a character I hope she gets killed by Jaime and realises how stupid she was to make assumptions about a prophecy and that her brother would tolerate her craziness. She (and Robert) corrupted Joffery (although his genetics probably wouldn't have helped) and he is possibly (tied with Ramsay) the most hated character in the novels.

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She (and Robert) corrupted Joffery (although his genetics probably wouldn't have helped) and he is possibly (tied with Ramsay) the most hated character in the novels.

:lol: There's actually a (game) thread dedicated to finding out the most hated character. It's still in midway, if anyone cares to join us :)

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Once again, Cersei is the evil queen and Jaime is the poor smuck she was trying to use all the time. Rolling my eyes!! Cersei actually made it clear that she needed Jaime, but he was too busy having the pity party of a lifetime to think straight. Jaime didn't up and leave because he felt Cersei was immoral; he left because she refused to entertain his folly on the marriage, and he could not get past her sleeping with other men.

Correct. She needed him to do her bidding, and when he went against her will, she made it a point to get rid of him - because she was sick of him balking her (her words). And Jaime didn't leave anywhere of his own accord. He was obliged by oath to follow Tommen's commands, that is, Cersei's.

Wow, yes. Jaime begins to show some care and concern for those children after how long again......? And he's supposed to be lauded for that? His thoughts about telling Myrcella and Tommen that they're really bastards shows just how much Jaime's care and concern went. Again, not much further than himself.

Completely beside the point. No one said to shower praise on him for it. But yes, again, that was part of the reason. Also, how does that show his lack of care? He wants to be a father figure for them. And he didn't say he was going to immediately tell them or the rest of the world.

Another puzzling argument that I've seen one too many times to count. This idea that Cersei was making Jaime do her bidding like he was some zombie is absurd. Certainly she may have requested him to do certain things, but Jaime has a mind of his own. It was Jaime who pushed Bran after all - the pinnacle of wretched acts in the series.

Jaime has a mind own, but you can't deny that Cersei used Jaime - or tried to use Jaime - for her own ends. So yes, Jaime is responsible for his own decisions, and he ultimately decided that Cersei wasn't worth the trouble.

It was petty jealousy plain and simple.

She lied to him, used him, rejected him, then sent him away. Clearly just jealously, plain and simple.

I really think that people hold Jaime in high esteem because he states that he never had another woman but his sister. Ah folks... that isn't normal, and really highlights that something is a bit messed up with the man's sexuality.

Why is that messed up? - besides the fact that that's messed up (incest). He loved her, and even though they weren't married (and she was married), they clearly had an understanding to be faithful to each other.

Whilst he can be play the faithful lover role, Cersei has to engage in some things that she makes clear she would rather have not to. We also have Arianne Martell as another woman who uses her body to get what she wants, but somehow I never hear her being villified like Cersei is, and her plans failed just as badly.

There's a difference: Arianne shows remorse for what she does, and the extent of her failures (moral or otherwise) are absolutely nowhere near Cersei's.

Nope. It all really boiled down to the jealousy. Maybe it was a bit off putting for him to see this new Cersei - a bit more rebellious to him, not so willing to jump into his bed etc etc, but the breaking point for them was when Tyrion told of him of Lancel and Moonboy.

It didn't but you can continue to ignore it if you want. And Tyrion telling him about that was merely the starting point.

Why else does Martin have him playing that over and over in his mind except to highlight that it is this in particular that Jaime cannot overcome?

No one said he overcame it. It surely played a major part in his decision but there were clearly other reasons for him not going to her aid (e.g. like the fact that there wasn't really anything he could do for her anyway since he lost his hand).

But Tyrion lied about Osmund. Varys told him that she was only flirting with Osmund

No. Varys all but came out and told him she was fucking him.

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I'm very sad that the Cersei Lannister appreciation thread has turned into an argument about berating her relationship with Jamie and whatnot. :(

Well, Cersei/Jaime is the biggest romantic tragedy of ASOIAF.

But alas, we are here to appreciate Cersei in her best, and in her worst, so let's get back on track.

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:lol: There's actually a (game) thread dedicated to finding out the most hated character. It's still in midway, if anyone cares to join us :)

Well, let it be noted that Zar didn't come to his inaugurated Cersei appreciation thread to promote her as the Ultimate Ruthless Villain. Joffrey has his own too, although I do find it difficult that Joffrey could have an active fandom.

I find Cersei fascinating. Truly. Ever fierce, unbending, her confrontation scenes with Robert or Ned were epic.

And speaking of post-AFFC, I must say, that (just in case de ADWD tag isn't gone yet)

Cersei's exchange/pretend confession with the High Sparrow

was one of the best written Chapters in that book.

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Well, let it be noted that Zar didn't come to his inaugurated Cersei appreciation thread to promote her as the Ultimate Ruthless Villain. Joffrey has his own too, although I do find it difficult that Joffrey could have an active fandom.

I find Cersei fascinating. Truly. Ever fierce, unbending, her confrontation scenes with Robert or Ned were epic.

And speaking of post-AFFC, I must say, that (just in case de ADWD tag isn't gone yet)

Cersei's exchange/pretend confession with the High Sparrow

was one of the best written Chapters in that book.

A lot of Cersei's chapters are extremely well written. George does such a good job at showing us her loving mind.

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 And yes, he was under her influence - so to speak - before. "The things I do for love" says it all.

Oh yes, he was indeed brainwashed by Cersei, through her wicked, all-powerful sexual manipulations. When he was sleeping with her, he killed a seven-year-old boy. But then, after he sees the light and dumps her… .he is willing to kill a newborn baby and a 16-year-old girl….

Hey, wait a second…. These two guys seem awfully the similar to me!

Furthermore, I find the example you’re using particularly hilarious. It was not Cersei who encouraged Jaime to throw Bran. It was Jaime who did that of his own volition. (Just as he was later willing to do when he threatens Edmure’s baby. And yes, Jaime would have offed the baby. He thinks so to himself.) Cersei was the one who actually did not want Jaime to murder Bran. So if this is your example of how the evil Cersei led the decent Jaime into a life of wickedness, I think you are not doing justice to your case.

Jaime’s “morality” (or lack thereof) remains basically the same, before and after he comes to reject Cersei. He is still willing to murder innocent children when he feels he “must.” The only difference is, now he loathes Cersei, and frequently calls her a whore in his mind. (I’m guessing you yourself concur with this summation.)

Basically, if you feel as though Jaime’s entitled to want Cersei dead for cheating, that’s fine. However, don’t try to make his abandoning her some act of contrition; or his rejection of her some sort of moral turnaround. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jaime is any different morality wise than he was before.


. After he found out what a lying, cheating sneak she was, he moved passed that.

Wow, I’m aware of Cersei’s evil deeds, and I was not aware that they included lying or cheating…. Oh, wait! By “lying, cheating sneak,” you mean Cersei’s sexual infidelity! Gotcha, okay. I was worried for a second that you were arguing that Jaime’s rejection of his twin would have had a root in something utterly ridiculous, like, say, morality. :shocked: But the fact that he was A-Okay with child murder, but unwilling to forgive cheating, is totally fine. After all, I guess, he himself is a child murderer, and is clearly going to continue to follow this route, if he must.

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Does anyone actually give a damn about how much sex Cersei has? I don't.

I also don't even judge her for committing incest, although I think the reason she does is pure arrogance and narcissism. GRRM seems to want us to think the incest was all due to her evil manipulativeness, but does anyone buy that even for a second? It makes Jaime completely pathetic for one thing.

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:lol: Zar I just saw this. Trying to gather more sympathy for you're lovely Queen, eh? But, I'll put my take on this:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cersei, I really do. No, I'm not part of those 90%+ who think she's a fucked up bitch. In fact, she is one of the awesomet people in the books. From her POV, it is actually not so hard to feel some sympathy for the poor woman. What if you had been in her situation. In Westeros, almost everything depends on whether you have a penis or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to? She unluckly was born lacking one, and thus, she became who she is. She was shoved into a marragie with a brut who what madly in love with another woman (Lyanna) who had died. He made no secret of the fact that he visted brothels ALL the time. How would you feel in her positon? People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has survived people. That more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she has played the game of thrones well. People call her a whore. That word has become rather over-used hasn't it. In all her life time, Cersei has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters that can't deny that. So she's short-sighted, paranoid, vain, narcissistic, incestuous, greedy, power hungry, manipulative, vindictive, and petty. She wasn't born like this, she was shaped by the world around her.

And to quote someone from net:

"She’s a seductress as a weapon, but it comes at huge personal cost; her body is a battleground and a cage and always defined as one. We know exactly the terms of her physical give-and-take; she’s not a libertine, she’s a goddamn warrior. She’s a lion’s heart wrapped in a woman’s hide and she’s felt that discrepancy since she was born; the act of womanhood is a battle for her, and one that she’s learned to fight incredibly well, but she’s fighting all the time even when the battle cools and the only one left to fight is herself. She is not strategy: she is wildfire. I’ve seen people get angry because she isn’t a strategist, but she’s never been presented as one, not even at her finest. She knows the game inside and out, but a gameswoman does not a strategist make: she understands the terms, but she as a character is never given us as patient or calm or, ever, compromising. She wants power, not because it will let her rule, but for its own sake, because if she gives up struggling for power she gives up the terms of the struggle that defines her entire life and gives herself over to a world trying to shape her into the very things she has defined herself by not being, the very thing the world at large defines as weak. She’s a product of her world: a feminist text in a vicious misogynist mind. She’s unapologetic and cruel but also brave and entirely capable of love. She’s never easy to love but she is ruthlessly human, human in her ruthlessness, jawdropping in her ruthlessness, understandable even in her horror, internally logical even in her external senselessness, a villain and a person and the heroine of her own story even as and even because she is the architect of her own downfall. Functionally perfect narrative being."

And there you have it folks, I think I've done enough ranting :P

Great post, thank you

Why is it that exactly the Lannister siblings cause the most heated, ferocious debates? I plunged myself with joy into the nervewrecking discussions about Tyrion's morality, I am not going to do this here again because everything has been said much better than I could. But I admit freely that Cersei and Tyrion are about the most fascinating characters to me, Jaime comes close, his description stays maybe a little, only a little less intense.

So what is it with them, i wonder? The Daddy issue, incest, their so very contrasting looks? It can't be so simple. Apparently everybody is intrigued, no matter what side he or she chooses to take. Are they simply "better written" than others? No doubt they are great, but not best, the best writing are the Reek/Theon chapters for me.

Part of of my interest in Cersei comes, of course, from the fact that she is a mother - good or bad - who actively makes use of her sexuality, thus defying the Virgin, Holy Mother <-> Whore dichtonomy, the patriarchial ideology of sexual sin that is inherent to christianity, as well as other religions.

The Incest taboo has been established to guarantee exogamic marriages, meaning it was advantageous for tribes to find allies elsewhere, not in their own family, it had nothing to do with genetics, unknown in prehistoric times. Religious or social laws against it were put up and kept upright to protect the weak, like younger siblings or children from violence by father, brother. uncle. There is no reason to consider sex between two consenting adults or two children who are equal in power as being immoral, this is simply the wrong category imo. It may though be somehow weird because sexual attraction means discovering someone else, not a mirrored image and it blocks an independent development of personality.

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No. Varys all but came out and told him she was fucking him.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong.
"Are you suggesting that Cersei's fucking Osmund Kettleblack?"

"Oh, dear me, no, that would be dreadfully dangerous, don't you think? No, the queen only hints... perhaps on the morrow, or when the wedding's done... and then a smile, a whisper, a ribald jest... a breast brushing lightly against his sleeve as they pass... and yet it seems to serve. But what would a eunuch know of such things?" The tip of his tongue ran across his lower lip like a shy pink animal.

If I could somehow push them beyond sly fondling, arrange for Father to catch them abed together... Tyrion fingered the scab on his nose. He did not see how it could be done, but perhaps some plan would come to him later.

This is the only time Osmund and Cersei are mentioned... until Tyrion lies to Jaime about the nature of their relationship.

Does anyone actually give a damn about how much sex Cersei has? I don't.

I also don't even judge her for committing incest, although I think the reason she does is pure arrogance and narcissism. GRRM seems to want us to think the incest was all due to her evil manipulativeness, but does anyone buy that even for a second? It makes Jaime completely pathetic for one thing.

I don't care how much sex she has (four men is quite a low number of lifetime sex partners for a woman in her 30s too) and the idea that the incest is all Cersei is total crap. It is 50% Jaime.
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Back to appreciation!

And speaking of post-AFFC, I must say, that (just in case de ADWD tag isn't gone yet)

Cersei's exchange/pretend confession with the High Sparrow

was one of the best written Chapters in that book.

I loved this! One of the best scenes in ADWD was when she was smiling sweetly at the septas and thinking about how she would have their tongues torn out someday and it would be hilarious, and the septa told her that it would good to see her smiling again.
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:lol: Zar I just saw this. Trying to gather more sympathy for you're lovely Queen, eh? But, I'll put my take on this:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cersei, I really do. No, I'm not part of those 90%+ who think she's a fucked up bitch. In fact, she is one of the awesomet people in the books. From her POV, it is actually not so hard to feel some sympathy for the poor woman. What if you had been in her situation. In Westeros, almost everything depends on whether you have a penis or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to? She unluckly was born lacking one, and thus, she became who she is. She was shoved into a marragie with a brut who what madly in love with another woman (Lyanna) who had died. He made no secret of the fact that he visted brothels ALL the time. How would you feel in her positon? People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has survived people. That more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she has played the game of thrones well. People call her a whore. That word has become rather over-used hasn't it. In all her life time, Cersei has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters that can't deny that. So she's short-sighted, paranoid, vain, narcissistic, incestuous, greedy, power hungry, manipulative, vindictive, and petty. She wasn't born like this, she was shaped by the world around her.

And to quote someone from net:

"She’s a seductress as a weapon, but it comes at huge personal cost; her body is a battleground and a cage and always defined as one. We know exactly the terms of her physical give-and-take; she’s not a libertine, she’s a goddamn warrior. She’s a lion’s heart wrapped in a woman’s hide and she’s felt that discrepancy since she was born; the act of womanhood is a battle for her, and one that she’s learned to fight incredibly well, but she’s fighting all the time even when the battle cools and the only one left to fight is herself. She is not strategy: she is wildfire. I’ve seen people get angry because she isn’t a strategist, but she’s never been presented as one, not even at her finest. She knows the game inside and out, but a gameswoman does not a strategist make: she understands the terms, but she as a character is never given us as patient or calm or, ever, compromising. She wants power, not because it will let her rule, but for its own sake, because if she gives up struggling for power she gives up the terms of the struggle that defines her entire life and gives herself over to a world trying to shape her into the very things she has defined herself by not being, the very thing the world at large defines as weak. She’s a product of her world: a feminist text in a vicious misogynist mind. She’s unapologetic and cruel but also brave and entirely capable of love. She’s never easy to love but she is ruthlessly human, human in her ruthlessness, jawdropping in her ruthlessness, understandable even in her horror, internally logical even in her external senselessness, a villain and a person and the heroine of her own story even as and even because she is the architect of her own downfall. Functionally perfect narrative being."

And there you have it folks, I think I've done enough ranting :P

I love this post and want to marry it. Enough said :-)

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Cersei's biggest mistake was telling the Iron Bank that they could go fuck themselves. Not that I haven't fantasized the same when it comes to SunTrust Bank, but 1) I haven't done it; 2) SunTrust doesn't employ mystical assassins to collect their debts.

Even there though Cersei's actions were understandable. With the Ironmen rampaging and all the loses at the Battle of Bywater, the realm desperately needed to rebuild its navy. And its not as though Cersei abrogated the debt. She was just asking (well demanding) an extension on repaying it until the civil war was over. Cersei should have been more diplomatic about it but even so the Iron Bank's reaction was completely unreasonable. They should understand that you can't get blood from a stone, and that giving Westeros a temporary extension so it can get back up on its feet, is much better long term for their bottom line. (After all a Westeros that is getting constantly raided by Ironmen is hardly going to be good for business.) Especially since the Lannisters do have the reputation for always paying their debts. The Iron Bank would have gotten their due if they had just waited. Instead, they are now going to spend even more money financing Stannis, prolonging the civil war and making Westeros even less able to repay them. And if Stannis loses then they are never going to get repaid. They would have been much better off just giving Cersei a one year extension on the debt.

And Kevan's proposed solution, paying off the crown's debt with Lannister assets, would have just further weakened the Lannisters for the benefit of the Tyrells. (With the Lannister armies so depleted, their gold is their only real source of power at the moment.)

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Even there though Cersei's actions were understandable. With the Ironmen rampaging and all the loses at the Battle of Bywater, the realm desperately needed to rebuild its navy. And its not as though Cersei abrogated the debt. She was just asking (well demanding) an extension on repaying it until the civil war was over. Cersei should have been more diplomatic about it but even so the Iron Bank's reaction was completely unreasonable. They should understand that you can't get blood from a stone, and that giving Westeros a temporary extension so it can get back up on its feet, is much better long term for their bottom line. (After all a Westeros that is getting constantly raided by Ironmen is hardly going to be good for business.) Especially since the Lannisters do have the reputation for always paying their debts. The Iron Bank would have gotten their due if they had just waited. Instead, they are now going to spend even more money financing Stannis, prolonging the civil war and making Westeros even less able to repay them. And if Stannis loses then they are never going to get repaid. They would have been much better off just giving Cersei a one year extension on the debt.

And Kevan's proposed solution, paying off the crown's debt with Lannister assets, would have just further weakened the Lannisters for the benefit of the Tyrells. (With the Lannister armies so depleted, their gold is their only real source of power at the moment.)

That's what I was thinking when I pondered the 'logic' of the Iron Banks actions, if Stannis loses, they will lose ALL of their gold, and with an Aegon claimant now rising in the south and with Dany burning Slavers Bay they should have realized it was only a matter of time before even more players were added to the board.

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I think the Iron Bank thinks that the money they lent Westeros / the Iron Throne is lost to them anyway. This is not about getting the money back, it is about revenge. They want revenge on Cersei Lannister. It is meant as a lesson for other kingdoms and cities thinking about not paying them back.

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I don't want to get into a debate about Cersei in a Cersei fan thread, so will keep this short. I do not like her, nor do I agree with a lot of the reasoning presented for her actions. However, I will grant this: I do enjoy reading her POVs both because they are entertaining, and because it gives us some totally unique viewpoints and looks at other characters. She is not someone I love to hate - I just flat out dislike her - but she is absolutely essential to the story, as are her POVs.

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Meh... I understand why people would object to getting into debates about Cersei. However, frankly i have no problem with that. Such thoughts liven things up and create new layers for the discussion. IMO, saying "no debating about Cersei in the Cersei appreciation thread," would be equivalent to saying, "no debate in the "unpopular opinions" thread." The debate is natural, and it enlivens the discussion.

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Okay then! Lol

People call her a whore. That word has become rather over-used hasn't it. In all her life time, Cersei has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters that can't deny that.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I would call her a whore is because she uses sex to manipulate and control men. If she were just doing it for sexual pleasure, okay. But using it to get people where she wants them is not cool. It is not so much about the number as the motivation. It is perfectly possible to be a strong, powerful, assertive woman without resorting to this. There are examples in the world of Westeros, as well as our own history. Is it easy? No. But it can be done. And in Cersei's case, it was STUPID whoring, because none of it ended up benefiting her and ended up working against her intended outcomes.

It is certainly true that there are plenty of other whores running about Westeros, but the fact that there are others does not mean Cersei is not. She just has a lot of company.

I have no problem with the idea of sexually liberated women, just to be clear. But again, she was not taking these lovers because she liked to get her groove on. Her reasons were as despicable as her behavior, and when you throw in consideration of the consequences to herself, her family, and most especially her children, all the more so.

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