The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Jayce]

Great stuff.

Wonderful. I think you are on to something and I think there may be ties between it all.

Wildlings and the Hill Clans

There are references that someone else noted in another post about how Mance says some refer to him as The Mance (The Ned, The Norrey, a hill clan way of addressing certain people) and how he fights with a Two handed sword, just like the hill clan champions do. There is further talk about how Mance claims to have been over the wall many times, but why, and speculation that the why was to meet with various Hill Clan Chiefs (personal face-to-face meetings, as well as fighting/defeating their champions, respect of strength etc).

So basically there is the possibility that Mance has already been meeting with the Hill Clans, why?

Could it be that he was already negotiating that which Jon is now talking about, settling the Wildlings south of the wall. Could Mance have been planning this the entire time, its just he had the obstacle of the Wall and as we know how the Crows feel about Wildlings felt he had to fight his way past? Or did he have a plan with the Old Bear, which was ruined when Mormont was killed? (Old Flint, Old Bear, hmm another Hill Clan name?)

Could Old Flint and The Norrey be bringing Mance, and the Wildlings in on other plans? (and Toregg thus Tormund and possibly Jon)

The Hill Clans and Alysane Mormont

I've already speculated that Lady Maege has been in contact with Bear Island, that Alysane left on her orders (leaving the littlest in charge). I think that Lady Maege and Galbart Glover have been in contact with Manderly and other Northern Lords since the RW and that there is a plan in motion. But to what end?

Alysane was at Deepwood Motte with others, though it wasn't apparent if they were working together or if they were just all there by coincidence (Cerwyns, Tallharts and Hornwoods).

Her little sister replies to Stannis with a "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK" yet her sister joins Stannis at Deepwood Motte, why?

Manderly and the Umbers

They were working together building Robb's fleet, they obviously had to communicate to do this. They must of spoken about what happened after the RW, and they could of made plans, especially if Manderly heard from Maege and Galbart. It also stands to reason that there was then communication between them and other Northern houses.

Despite this it seems House Umber don't know who to support, sending some to Bolton and some to Stannis, why? Also it seems one of Umbers armies was waiting outside of Winterfell, blowing a horn and collecting Theon and fArya. Odd place to be unless they planned on attacking, or risking being attacked. Why were they there at that time?

Linking it all together

Alysane could of been speaking with the Hill Clan Chief's that are with Stannis, who in turn could be keeping The Norrey and Old Flint informed, who seem to have had dealing with Mance before and might be dealing with Toregg thus Tormund, who has been spending hours and hours behind closed doors with Jon (who incidentally seem to trust each other more then any other group of people at the damn wall). Jon helped Alys Karstark marry Sighorn and protected her from her Uncle.

Alysane was also with Tallharts, Cerwyns and Hornwoods at Deepwood Motte, this could imply cooperation between them (though it could of just been a coincidence).

If Alysane has been in touch with Maege this would also imply Glover and maybe the Reeds.

Manderly and the Umbers must have something up between them, but I am currently having a problem linking them with the others, though I think Maege or Galbart may be in contact with Manderly (which would make sense to be once they heard of the RW as Manderly and the Umbers had been given tasks by Robb).

I'm sure there is more that I have missed.

Edit: Spellings

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Whoa a Hill Clan+Wildling+True Northmen conspiracy... you guys are blowing my mind. :drool:

[(Nightshade)]

Great theory regarding the hill tribes + wildlings.

One thing -- are you saying that there's a chance Alysane Mormont/Northmen might be planning to ambush Stannis? I could see them not supporting Stannis' claim to the throne after they use him to get rid of the Boltons/Freys, but he's the only king who's helping them -- would they repay it with such betrayal? Asha I could see doing something nasty, but Mormont and co. I don't think so.

[Jayce]

You might be right but a couple of thoughts jumped to mind;

Does it have to be nasty?

Depends on what they have planned already.

Also like someone else said the North have invested a lot in to being independent and having their own King again, one would hope they don't go back to what they had before - which is what would happen under Stannis, wouldn't it?

[Eyron]

I somehow think that what Lyanna Mormont said in her letter to Stannis says it all. The Mormonts only recognizes one king in the north, and his name is STARK.

And we know that her sister went with the hill clans to Stannis, the clans who went with Stannis to save the Stark girl, alledgedly or true. I think it's true but that the hill clans have another motive as well. I think they are loyal to the Starks and no other, but Stannis was sent to them from Jon, Eddards son, and he wanted to help root out the Boltons from Winterfell. Good times for the Stark loyalists. An army for free.

And her mother is hiding somewhere, for what? Why did she not join Stannis? What is she up to? I don't think she is hiding for no reason. And I don't think she is loyal to Stannis, hence the letter Lyanna wrote to Stannis, that Jon saw. For Jon to see?

And there was also Wylla Manderly who were so kind to remind Wyman and the court of the oath the Manderlys pledged to the Starks when they were given White Harbour. Wyman seemed proud to hear her say that. The Stark in Winterfell is his leige lord and no one else. He left a loop hole in his promise to Davos as we have noticed before. Which Stark is the heir?

[nenya~]

Linking it all together

Alysane could of been speaking with the Hill Clan Chief's that are with Stannis, who in turn could be keeping The Norrey and Old Flint informed, who seem to have had dealing with Mance before and might be dealing with Toregg thus Tormund, who has been spending hours and hours behind closed doors with Jon (who incidentally seem to trust each other more then any other group of people at the damn wall). Jon helped Alys Karstark marry Sighorn and protected her from her Uncle.

I've also read a theory that the bear Tormund slept with could be a Mormont. One of his titles is Husband to Bears, afterall. Hmmmm.

[(Nightshade)]

Any betrayal to someone who's currently helping them restore House Stark would be just nasty and beneath the Northmen, imo.

“Yes,” piped a girl’s voice, thin and high.

It belonged to the half-grown child with the blond eyebrows and the long green braid.

“They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb,” she said. “He was our King! He was brave and good, and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.”

Manderly pulled her close. “Wylla, every time you open your mouth you make me want to send you to the Silent Sisters.”

“I only said-“

“We heard what you said,” said the older girl, her sister. “A child’s foolishness. Speak no ill of our friends of Frey. One of them will be your lord and husband soon.”

”No,” the girl declared, shaking her head. “I won’t. I won’t ever. They killed the King.”

[(Nightshade)]

Also like someone else said the North have invested a lot in to being independent and having their own King again, one would hope they don't go back to what they had before - which is what would happen under Stannis, wouldn't it?

It depends on the outcome of the battle, and when Davos brings Rickon back. I think it's possible that Stannis might let the North become an independent kingdom again, if they strike a deal.

[bemused]

I think Stannis is the Johnny come lately on the scene and that a conspiracy between certain of the Northern Lords, and the Northern clans , had already been developing. (Maybe more than one ) When he comes along with his campaign, they need to have a presence in it , to at least make sure he won't leave them out if he wins..or at most , to make sure his campaign supports theirs.

If they can take charge of WF just before he gets there and open the gates for him it could put a whole new complexion on things.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

You might be right but a couple of thoughts jumped to mind;

Does it have to be nasty?

Depends on what they have planned already.

Also like someone else said the North have invested a lot in to being independent and having their own King again, one would hope they don't go back to what they had before - which is what would happen under Stannis, wouldn't it?

Umm, no... Stannis said he would crush Robb Stark before giving him the North which is rightfully his. He offered to install Jon as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, but NOT as King in the North.

And there was also Wylla Manderly who were so kind to remind Wyman and the court of the oath the Manderlys pledged to the Starks when they were given White Harbour. Wyman seemed proud to hear her say that. The Stark in Winterfell is his leige lord and no one else. He left a loop hole in his promise to Davos as we have noticed before. Which Stark is the heir?

Interesting i must've missed it upthread. So manderly's words may be carefully chosen huh?

[Jayce]

Umm, no... Stannis said he would crush Robb Stark before giving him the North which is rightfully his. He offered to install Jon as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, but NOT as King in the North.

Exactly, so under Stannis they would go back to how things were, i.e. Warden of the North not King in the North. So one would assume that if they are aiming for a King rather then a Warden that they would turn against Stannis at some point.

[Jayce]

"I know about the promise" insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore and beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. This city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

The maester fingered the chain about his neck. "Solemn oaths were sworn to the Starks of Winterfell, aye. But Winterfell has fallen and House Stark has been extinguished."

"That's because they killed them all!"

[Jayce]

"Wylla." Lord Wyman smiled. "Did you see how brave she was? Even when I threatened to have her tongue out, she reminded me of the debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid. Wylle spoke from the heart."

So it seems White Habor is pro-Stark no matter what. There is a plot going on to rid themselves of Bolton, there has to be!

[Jayce]

As for Wyman using his words carefully;

"Smuggle me back my liege lord [Rickon], and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king."

So not White Harbor's king, not the North's king, just Wyman Manderly's king?

[kissdbyfire]

I've missed some chunks of the conversation here, so I'm not sure it's been talked about much. But is there any possibility that the northerners don't know about Roose's involvement in the RW? Because I don't think there is. No way Jose. That's why I love the conspiraton idea. I am fairly sure there is a major conspirator going on. But I don't think they'll turn on Stannis. And not only because it's not how the north does business, but they also need him at this point.

I think Alysanne could be a plant. But I think something will happen that you sway her initial assessment of him. Or something like that. I'm not making much sense, am I? :lol:

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Exactly, so under Stannis they would go back to how things were, i.e. Warden of the North not King in the North. So one would assume that if they are aiming for a King rather then a Warden that they would turn against Stannis at some point.

Umm, yes. If they aspire to reclaim the North as their own autonomous territory seperated from the seven kingdoms, then they would have to defy/betray Stannis.

Stannis could already have amassed great power by either allying with Renly, or with the young wolf... "He will break before he bends".

[Eyron]

As for Wyman using his words carefully;

So not White Harbor's king, not the North's king, just Wyman Manderly's king?

I underlined the part that I find is most interesting.

Manderly's liege lord... Who would that be? Wex knew that both Bran and Rickon escaped and were alive after the fall of Winterfell. He just chose to follow Rickon and Osha supposedly. And Wyman knows too, since Wex told him.

Also if Manderly know about Robb's will, he knows who is really the heir to Winterfell and the King in the north. And I don't think that is Rickon.

He says that if Davos succeeds in smuggling back his liege lord, he will take Stannis as his king. So what if Rickon is not his liege lord, and he knows it?

[Eyron]

I've missed some chunks of the conversation here, so I'm not sure it's been talked about much. But is there any possibility that the northerners don't know about Roose's involvement in the RW? Because I don't think there is. No way Jose. That's why I love the conspiraton idea. I am fairly sure there is a major conspirator going on. But I don't think they'll turn on Stannis. And not only because it's not how the north does business, but they also need him at this point.

I think Alysanne could be a plant. But I think something will happen that you sway her initial assessment of him. Or something like that. I'm not making much sense, am I? :lol:

Well, somewhere along the end of the thread I added that after the gift chapter I can see a possibility of the northmen not getting rid of Stannis, if he abandons the red god, the red priestess and the burning of people. But, perhaps the northmen at this point has no room for mercy or diplomacy. If Stannis recognises the independance of the north, he may have a chance.

At the end of ADwD Stannis needed the northmen more than the other way around, his army could not manage in the cold and snow, so perhaps he will bend before he breaks. Perhaps :D

[Lummel]

I feel Eira that you are being excessively legalistic there. I don't think that Manderly has a motive to be so cunning in his dealings with Davos.

Equally I think Robb's will is a dead letter after the Red Wedding - even presuming that Manderly knows its contents. Manderly could well think that Jon's oath is binding and a renegade night's watchman who is believed to be the bastard son of The Ned would be harder for the North to accept than a true born youth.

[kissdbyfire]

I feel Eira that you are being excessively legalistic there. I don't think that Manderly has a motive to be so cunning in his dealings with Davos.

Equally I think Robb's will is a dead letter after the Red Wedding - even presuming that Manderly knows its contents. Manderly could well think that Jon's oath is binding and a renegade night's watchman who is believed to be the bastard son of The Ned would be harder for the North to accept than a true born youth.

Lummel (hi!), I could argue you're being a tad legalistic as well regarding the will. I agree it probably wouldn't have much legitimacy to the Iron Throne or even Westeros in general. But it serves another role, and I think a crucial one: it rallies the north under a Stark-appointed successor. I say 'Stark-appointed' allowing for the possibility that it isn't Jon. :)