The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Ah, but is Roose technically their host? Roose doesn't own Winterfell. Roose is an intruder there. And GRRM goes to great pains to point out that Manderly, not Roose, provided the food and drink.

We know Manderly is loyal to the Starks and he made sure that everyone knew he was bringing all the food and drink necessary for all of the castle's inhabitants. Since the White Harbor men did not partake of the Bolton's bread and wine, they have no reason to abide by the guest right and can betray the Boltons and Freys whenever they wish. We know the Umbers hate the Freys for killing the Smalljon but have to play nice in order to get the Greatjon back so I'm sure what they'll do when the shit hits the fan. It seems like only the Ryswells and the men sworn to Lady Dustin are actually willing followers of the Boltons, so the minute an heir of Ned Stark shows up they're fucked.

[kissdbyfire]

I don't think they're bound by shit. They know Roose and the Freys are treacherous imposters who have no actual right to be holding Winterfell in the first place. Especially with their technicality, "Arya", being gone. I don't have the best knowledge of the specifics of the old gods views of guest/host rights, but I'm sure the old gods are smart enough to recognize that if a bunch of Freys and Boltons die inside the walls of Winterfell no real sins have been committed.

This is the tale Old Nam tells Bran about the Rat Cook.

ASoS, Bran

When the flames were blazing nicely Meera put the fish on. At least it’s not a meat pie. The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. “It was not for murder that the gods cursed him,” Old Nan said, “nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

[Eyron]

I don't think they're bound by shit. They know Roose and the Freys are treacherous imposters who have no actual right to be holding Winterfell in the first place. Especially with their technicality, "Arya", being gone. I don't have the best knowledge of the specifics of the old gods views of guest/host rights, but I'm sure the old gods are smart enough to recognize that if a bunch of Freys and Boltons die inside the walls of Winterfell no real sins have been committed.

If you continued to read the thread you probably saw that this point was brought up again after the OP?

[sertravisredbeard]

Yep my bad. I have a habit of responding to the OP, then reading the rest of the discussion. And most of the time someone else thinks of things before I do.

Maybe Manderly and company killing the Boltons and Freys will be the old gods' punishment? Since what the Freys and Boltons did the "gods can't forgive."

[Eyron]

Yep my bad. I have a habit of responding to the OP, then reading the rest of the discussion. And most of the time someone else thinks of things before I do.

Maybe Manderly and company killing the Boltons and Freys will be the old gods' punishment? Since what the Freys and Boltons did the "gods can't forgive."

No problem :)

To the second part of your post, I think that the law of guest right has a way of enforcing itself. The Freys are forever tainted with their treachery and will be the target of hate and despise as long as there are Northmen around. Maybe there is a sort of punishment, maybe with help of the Old Gods, or maybe just a neverending feud. The Starks and other northmen will likely get some partial revenge at least, it all points that way, to me.

[Janicia]

Great thread! One possibility with the Whoresbane Umber literacy discrepancy is that he's trying to be "honorably" deceptive. If I draw a picture of a giant on something that I disagree with rather than write my name, maybe I can shrug it off later as "I never really signed that." Kinda like the mayhaps trick of the Freys.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Yep my bad. I have a habit of responding to the OP, then reading the rest of the discussion. And most of the time someone else thinks of things before I do.

Maybe Manderly and company killing the Boltons and Freys will be the old gods' punishment? Since what the Freys and Boltons did the "gods can't forgive."

This thread has 16 pages, and 10 months. It has been picked up a couple times, so has both it and the people talking about it have changed.

Your point is sound.

Vic Blackfyre up top of this page has quoted Tze, when ever you see Tze read it.

[tze]

Just to add onto my point upthread about the possibility that the hill clans have been conspiring with the wildlings, potentially via the "wet nurse" sent by Old Flint: In addition to the fact that the infamous woman who lied about herself at the Wall was also a Flint---Dany Flint---it's striking how many times House Flint in particular has been juxtaposed with the wildlings.

The Lord Commander who once tried to make himself King-Beyond-The-Wall was Rodrik Flint. Old Nan associates Bran's climbing skills with his Flint heritage, and climbing is of course a skill heavily associated with the wildlings. When Tormund's people cross the Wall,

Strange voices echoed down the yards, and free folk were coming and going along icy paths that had only known the black boots of crows for years. Outside the old Flint Barracks, he came across a dozen men pelting one another with snow.

We have the wildlings playing outside a place associated with the Flints. And in Winterfell,

Do they mean to try and blow our walls down?” japed a Flint when the warhorn sounded once again. “Mayhaps he thinks he’s found the Horn of Joramun.”

The Horn of Joramun symbolized a union between the wildlings and Winterfell, and the fact that it's a Flint (not one of the First Flints, granted, but Jon says that supposedly all Flints derive in some way from the First Flints, so there could be a connection nevertheless) who brings up the idea of the Horn of Joramun in Winterfell could be meant to evoke the wildlings. On the march to Winterfell, one of Morgan Liddle's mules goes missing, he claims the Flints stole it. The only man who comes over the wall of Deepwood Motte and speaks to Asha is a Flint. House Flint has been surreptitiously associated with sneaking over walls, theft, and the Horn of Joramun---all things associated primarily with the wildlings.

[mediterraneo]

...This was at Deepwood Motte. Why was Alysane there? Who was coordinating this attempt to free Deepwood Motte from the Ironmen (that Stannis took over and achieved without saying anything about another leader/coordinator, just mentions unexpected help from people already there).

...

...So Alysane was there with men from the Hornwoods, Cerwyns and Tallharts, were they working together? If so, under whose command before Stannis arrived? What has Stannis learned of the battle outside of Winterfell from these men?

So many unanswered questions.

Just to add: Stannis did not come up alone with the idea of recruiting the Flints and the others, nor with the idea of capturing Deepwood Motte.

Jon gave him the idea.

Maybe it is just that every military leader in the north knew it was a good idea. Maybe the northmen have a good spy or two aat the Wall. Maybe Jon...

No, he wouldn't, would he?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Just to add: Stannis did not come up alone with the idea of recruiting the Flints and the others, nor with the idea of capturing Deepwood Motte.

Jon gave him the idea.

Maybe it is just that every military leader in the north knew it was a good idea. Maybe the northmen have a good spy or two aat the Wall. Maybe Jon...

No, he wouldn't, would he?

No he wouldn't lol. Not quite sure what you're getting at but if it's Jon Snow basically sending Stannis into a Northmen trap, I don't buy it. I think he and Stannis have an understanding that is based on honor, and justice.

[qixoticneurotic]

No he wouldn't lol. Not quite sure what you're getting at but if it's Jon Snow basically sending Stannis into a Northmen trap, I don't buy it. I think he and Stannis have an understanding that is based on honor, and justice.

but i wouldnt put it past one of those sneaky frogeaters. deception and misderection are thier stock and trade.

[Knight errant]

Rightt.... first, new to the forums, been creeping a while and read some of the early pages of this (Not many of the latter so this could be out of date)

I do think there might be a conspiracy with some of the Lords involved - Manderly is up to a lot, more than he probably lets on. It only involves the Boltons however, they have no problem with Stannis or reason to be against him. Before any of you claim religion Manderly the supposed main man in this is a follower of the seven so religious intolerance as a cause is unlikely and he has infringed on none of their other rights.

The Mountain clans DO NOT plan on betraying Stannis, that much is clear. He has done nothing to their religion, is going to sacrifice theon FOR THEM and I doubt they'd be in contact with Manderly or Umber to such an extent and finally they could easily wipe him out now, in a storm or the night with ease.

The Northern peoples to a lesser extent believe Stannis their overall king, they want a stark Leige Lord but will serve stannis. The Mountain folk are swayed by just seeing a king, they love the novelty and believe the man is honourable so will now fight with him, the Glovers got their land back so are indebted to him and through extension the hornwood heir will look favorably at that. Manderly is a smart player and knows if they move against Bolton they will also move against the throne and will probably need to side with someone else. The Umbers aren't as stupid as people want them to be and so will not do anything to Stannis.

Also the Mountain clans are unlikely to have any more than common heritage with the Wildlings, they have the same stories , religion it's not that hard to imagine but secret message transferal through a wet nurse ? It's almost certain none of the involved are literate.

No the North is out for Bolton and frey. Then they might choose to help stannis or get on with their own stuff. I doubt there is a second army of northmen in wait but it could be possible....

[Team_Rob]

yeah, probably but perhaps Manderly is just biding his time till Rickon is safe in WH. in that case Stannis is doomed

they will eventually turn against Lord Leech but i don't think it being soon - it would be too easy and when was anything easy with GRRM (except occasional Stark murder, and Cersei fucking anything that moves between Casterly Rock and KL)

Exactly. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all they find of Rickon is his bones, or he's crazy from being on Skagos too long. Either Jon'll stay dead, or Rickon will be crazy, because everyone is expecting Rickon to just show up and claim Winterfell, but that would be too likeable an event. He has to pull the rug from under us again somehow.

[TmaK]

I love the idea that all the norther gangs are conspiring agaisnt the Boltons. It makes sense with northern history. The trouble is they will most likely not allign with Stannis, as he's a southron, unless he swears them something true. As said this is detailed in Manderlay's oath to Davos, that if they provide a Stark they will back Stannis. I love the poster's idea that perhaps the other northern houses are in cahoots with Manderley..to some degree. This idea would make alot of sense as per the north. This obvioiulsy excludes power hunger members of these houses, for example Karstarks who align with Bolton, who are not the actual heirs to their lands, but trying to secure them. This puts further emphasis on Jon Snow. If he survives, and attacks, it seems entirely in the realm of possibilty that all Northerners would jump to his side, immediatly. And burn the DREADFORT!

[Ludd]

I think there are a heck of a lot more wargs in the North than is well known. They know stuff. For example the Mormants fairly clearly are Bear wargs (at least the women are). The old bear seems to warg a raven. I have a guess that Jorah is a warg as well -perhaps he does not know.

Maybe the Manderlys can warg something or other - a sea creature of some kind. In that role they can spy out where Rickon is - and see him traveling.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I think there are a heck of a lot more wargs in the North than is well known. They know stuff. For example the Mormants fairly clearly are Bear wargs (at least the women are). The old bear seems to warg a raven. I have a guess that Jorah is a warg as well -perhaps he does not know.

Maybe the Manderlys can warg something or other - a sea creature of some kind. In that role they can spy out where Rickon is - and see him traveling.

Yeah I was reading the Kingsmoot last night in AFFC and it had one man petition to sit the seastone chair from some obscure islands who Aeron says he mistrusts as they were wargs and skinchangers. He said they warged seals and walruses! LOL seen it mentioned in the forum before but adds to you comment about more wargs in the North than previously thought.

[Guinnessmonkey]

Not sure why so many folks seem to assume that the North is really eager for Jon Snow to rule over them. It's highly doubtful many of them got to know him half as well as the readers have. Regardless, he's (supposedly) Ned's bastard, but was never rendered legitimate. Even if he had been legitimate, he's now a brother of the Night's Watch (heck, he's the bloody Lord Commander). Much as Maester Aemon wasn't even a consideration for the Iron Throne anymore after he went to the wall, Jon shouldn't be a consideration for Winterfell.

Remember, we don't have a great family tree for the Stark family (heck, we don't even know who Ned's mom was). As far as we know, even with all the Starks dead there's a 2nd cousin or something with a good claim... We don't know if Lord Rickon had siblings (one would assume he did), etc. There could always be some minor branch of the Starks. GRRM hasn't gone into this because it's totally irrelevant: Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya are all still alive.

Regardless, now that we know that Manderly DOES know about Bran and Rickon being alive, why would anyone assume that he would prefer Ned's bastard to Ned's trueborn son (particularly one that's young, and who might be controlled....)? Half the North might balk at a bastard claiming the seat (particularly those with enough legitimate Stark blood to have a better claim), the other half would balk at installing an oathbreaker in Winterfell.

It's fairly obvious Manderly's going out of his way to show that you can follow the old rules and traditions (guest rights, etc.) and still get revenge. Why, after winning, would he then break both the rules of legal succession AND the laws regarding the Nights Watch?

Seems like lots of people are going to crazy lengths to put Jon in Winterfell..... Heck, why would you even want him there? He's not a Stark, after all. He's a Targaryen. If you find a way to relieve him of his Nights Watch duties, he's got a legitimate claim on a much bigger prize than Winterfell (well, not if Aegon is for real, but whatever. I don't think anyone expects him on the throne at the end of the series, whether 'cause he'll be dead or because he's a fake).

[redriver]

"It's highly doubtful that many of them have got to know him half as well as the readers have."

Oh fucking hell.

[firepoet]

Not sure why so many folks seem to assume that the North is really eager for Jon Snow to rule over them. It's highly doubtful many of them got to know him half as well as the readers have. Regardless, he's (supposedly) Ned's bastard, but was never rendered legitimate. Even if he had been legitimate, he's now a brother of the Night's Watch (heck, he's the bloody Lord Commander). Much as Maester Aemon wasn't even a consideration for the Iron Throne anymore after he went to the wall, Jon shouldn't be a consideration for Winterfell.

Seems like lots of people are going to crazy lengths to put Jon in Winterfell..... Heck, why would you even want him there? He's not a Stark, after all. He's a Targaryen. If you find a way to relieve him of his Nights Watch duties, he's got a legitimate claim on a much bigger prize than Winterfell (well, not if Aegon is for real, but whatever. I don't think anyone expects him on the throne at the end of the series, whether 'cause he'll be dead or because he's a fake).

1. They may just need something to rally around and for now Jon Snow is the best they have. Especially if he's been legitimized by Robb and is now a Stark, oldest son of Lord Eddard.

2. Whether he is or isn't, these people don't know that, and Jon doesn't know that.

[Black Wolf Smith]

1. They may just need something to rally around and for now Jon Snow is the best they have. Especially if he's been legitimized by Robb and is now a Stark, oldest son of Lord Eddard.

2. Whether he is or isn't, these people don't know that, and Jon doesn't know that.

Welcome to the boards.

While I am on the same side of this, whether or not Robb legitmized him matters little. IMO he is a true born son, with Stark blood in a vains. He will be King of Winter.

But this is all off the OP.