The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Pliskin]

Yep, this seems to be forgotten sometimes, but I am not sure he will bend the knee to Stannis if he does not have to.

About the loyalty for the Starks, the Manderlys have sworn an oath to the Starks, a very old one and Wyman is bound to it with his honour. Some people in Westeros don't care about honour but believe Wyman Manderly does. I mean where do little Wyllas ideas come from? She is superloyal to the Starks and she must have picked that up from someone right?

Yeah.

Even a cynical man would let down a tear after hearing about the Manderlys' tragedy and how the Starks gave them refuge in the North and a second chance, while all the South wanted them dead. So I just don't see how Wyman could not be loyal to these beloved Starks.

On the other hand, he knows that in order to bring back the Starks, he could need Stannis's help.

Lords or kings, what's the difference ? It's just a title. He wants his Starks, that's all.

[Eyron]

@Greggles

But didn't Osha say that she was planning on going to White Harbour? O have I just made that up in my head?

That is what made me think they definitely were not going there, since I know GRRM likes to make little tricks like this.

If they went north, I am sure they would not walk the kingsroad for all to see, they would go into the forest out of sight, maybe parallel to the road.

You are right I still assume Rickon is there, at Skagos, for all the reasons I said before. I don't see the point of Davos wild goose chase.

@Pliskin

I think you are right, to the Stark loyalists it would be the same, they would just want a Stark back in Winterfell, lord or whatever.

[Greggles]

@Eira

At the end of CoK, Meera said that her gang would take the Hunters gate (the west side, closest to the wolfswood) and Osha responded that she would take the East gate and follow the Kingsroad 'for a little ways' without indicating North or South.

[Eyron]

I have to go back and reread that, i was so sure she mentioned White Harbour at some point, or going to a harbour to get a boat or something like that.

[kephv]

I have to go back and reread that, i was so sure she mentioned White Harbour at some point, or going to a harbour to get a boat or something like that.

Maester Luwin mentions WH so it was generally assumed by a lot of people that that's where they were going. However if both parties went north I can't see why they parted so soon.

[Eyron]

Ah that's where I got it then, thanks!

I know it does not make sense that they parted so soon, but there is the Wex factor to consider too. I really think Maester Luwin knew he was sitting up in the tree above. How still can a boy sit for so long. Bran and co had to go without being followed (secret mission) but Rickon and Osha could let Wex follow them.

I just remembered something else.

Luwins ravens were still there when Theon came with the Boltons to marry Arya, he sees them sitting in the godswoods trees, and they kept muttering and shrieking to eachother. Maybe maester Luwin left messages with them (or even sent some away) before he died?

[ckongo]

Most of the north probably is against Roose. Roose is an example of someone whose bite is worse than his bark, yet he has a reputation and few probably want him as the warden of the north. Even worse, Ramsay becoming warden of the north is a nightmare most northern lords would want to be rid of. And the Boltons being BFFs with the Freys only makes matters worse as the Freys are probably the most hated house in Westeros now.

What about the Karlstarks? It seems likely that Stannis found out about them turning their cloaks from Theon, the iron banker and/or the sent raven.

If Manderly stabs the Freys in the back, wouldn't Wyman himself be in danger inside Winterfell once this betrayal is realized, or would he use guest right as a hopes to stay alive? I can't see him fighting Stannis if he wants to side with him. He needs to end the facade now.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

If Manderly stabs the Freys in the back, wouldn't Wyman himself be in danger inside Winterfell once this betrayal is realized, or would he use guest right as a hopes to stay alive? I can't see him fighting Stannis if he wants to side with him. He needs to end the facade now.

Yeah, Manderly getting injured was a really unfortunate turn of events. He is now in a rather vulnerable position, so how will his men handle the Freys and Stannis once they're outside the walls? They don't want to attack Stannis, but they cannot really hope to utterly annihilate every single Frey without word of that getting back to Winterfell.

Once that happens, Manderly is toast. Guest right would be totally void under such circumstances.

[tze]

Yeah, Manderly getting injured was a really unfortunate turn of events. He is now in a rather vulnerable position, so how will his men handle the Freys and Stannis once they're outside the walls? They don't want to attack Stannis, but they cannot really hope to utterly annihilate every single Frey without word of that getting back to Winterfell.

Once that happens, Manderly is toast. Guest right would be totally void under such circumstances.

Unless that was Manderly's plan all along. He swore that he, Wyman Manderly, would declare for Stannis if Davos brought him his "liege lord", But Wyllis Manderly made no such vow. If Wyman Manderly is indeed on a suicide mission, then that distinction might be important: Davos gets Rickon and takes him to White Harbor, but whoops! Wyman Manderly is dead (and in the process, redefined "going out with a bang" since he died after literally eating his enemy's children), and thus cannot declare for Stannis, and Wyllis Manderly made no similar vows, so all hail the King in the North (whether Jon, Bran, or Rickon).

[Lord Damian]

Regarding Lord Manderly, Davos and the the Expedition to recover Rickon and Shaggy Dog: I am curious of the time frame. We know from Sam's account in AFfC that when passing Skakos, he saw a ship wrecked there. The timing of ADwD in comparison to AFfC makes me think that Rickon might be already safe at White Harbor. Perhaps his POV in TWoW will be the prologue. Manderly needs Rickon and Shaggy to declare for Stannis, Might he have them already?

[Miriel]

Regarding Lord Manderly, Davos and the the Expedition to recover Rickon and Shaggy Dog: I am curious of the time frame. We know from Sam's account in AFfC that when passing Skakos, he saw a ship wrecked there. The timing of ADwD in comparison to AFfC makes me think that Rickon might be already safe at White Harbor. Perhaps his POV in TWoW will be the prologue. Manderly needs Rickon and Shaggy to declare for Stannis, Might he have them already?

Whose POV as the prologue? Manderly's? Or ...RICKON'S?!?

Noooo .............

But I could see a Lord Wyman POV. I had the feeling he came to WF not entirely sure he would leave and he seems to be OK with that, provided he gets revenge. His would be an awesome POV, and the only way we will see him is as a prologue b/c there won't be any new POV's will there?

And speaking of the awesome Lord Wyman, does anyone else think he has more than just delicious foodstuffs in some of those wagons he brought w/ him to WF?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh and about the Blackfish and Jeyne Westerling, I am on team "switched". If GRRM bothers to describe a woman's hips twice, there is a reason for it.

Me too. I reread that part of Feast the other night and I really think it's there. The Blackfish talking about being entrusted with Robb's queen — that wouldn't end with the castle's seizure. The obvious disparity in the hips. The shredded dress, ostensibly for "mourning," but it could also hide an ill fit. The girl hid her face, possibly to prevent her from being recognized as not-Jeyne. The joke of a common Jeyne pretending to be a noble and a noble Jeyne pretending to be a commoner after her escape. The surety of the Mormonts that there was actually a Stark king still, whether it was Jon, Bran, Rickon, Robb's child, etc. The too-fine-to-be-a-coincidence fact that Maggy the Frog is Sybelle Westerling's grandmother. The fact that the Westerlings weren't trusted with the Red Wedding details and lost a son there, allegedly. Sybelle actually made out like a bandit if you think about it — she has a pardon and good marriages for her kids, and a daughter secretly carrying the heir to the north.

That still begs the question of where the Blackfish (with or without Jeyne) would go. I think there could be some awesome stuff going down in the Riverlands. Tom O'Sevens is a mole in Frey-held Riverrun, UnCat is still on the loose, the Blackfish is ... who the hell knows where, and you have captives at the Twins (like the Greatjon) who are just begging for a jailbreak. Not to mention the possibility that there are anywhere from a few hundred to maybe a thousand northern fighters stranded down south and left leaderless.

[lostcause]

I love this thread!

This would be an amazing first third of the book. And would give me hopes that Martin isn't fishing for an 8th book after all. He needs to wrap things up and get all the players in position for the final showdown against the Others.

Amazing attention for details by some posters here.

[Free Northman]

No one could ever prove that a Westerling child is indeed Robb's offspring.

Robb's heir will be one of his brothers. No one else.

[Sword of the North]

A Manderly Prologue would probably make my head explode. It would push him over the edge of awesomeness. He could be sitting in the great hall, dying, while eating his pies and laughing at the Freys like a madman.

I too think Jeyne was switched, but I don't think her mother knew about it, or that Jeyne is with child. Maybe in the confusion of handing Riverrun over, some BwB dudes came and the people still loyal to Robb switched her. Isn't there a tall/lanky Jeyne with the BwB? Why name her Jeyne? Maybe she's just tall/lanky because her clothes are really really small.

Also, love this thread. King of the North and Blackfish theories = my favorites.

[Free Northman]

The question I still ask is - once the King in the North isssue is resolved, will it have any meaning in terms of actual manpower? What level of army will a Stark King in the North be able to put in the field at the end of Winds of Winter, presuming he is crowned during the next book?

Stannis seems desperate to get the North to rise for him, and we see a number of remarks during Dance about the fact that the lords of the North will rise if one of Ned Stark's sons takes the seat of Winterfell. So clearly having the North "rise" for you is something of military significance beyond a couple of thousand green boys with borrowed spears.

So what does this actually mean? If the North DOES rise, will the King in the North be a real King in terms of his military power? Or will even the Tatterred Prince be able to outnumber Winterfell's combined forces?

[FanTasy]

The question I still ask is - once the King in the North isssue is resolved, will it have any meaning in terms of actual manpower? What level of army will a Stark King in the North be able to put in the field at the end of Winds of Winter, presuming he is crowned during the next book?

There are a lot of wildling men and spearwife south of the wall. Jon wanted to use them to man all the abandoned strongholds at the Wall. But when I read that I doubted that great hords of wildlings would be tempted to do that. Some of them could settle in the Gift, but some of them, the warriors, could be actual manpower for a new King of the North.

[lostcause]

As I see it the Northmen are quite tough. Living up north during winter..only the strong survive and all that.

So while they may be lower in numbers than in the south, they are worth more pr man in a fight.

Robb was more or less outnumbered in all his battles and came out the victor still.

Plus I think logistics play a rather big factor..

If you want to have a supply line from the south, it's no good if you are terrorised by minor houses and clans along the way.

[Free Northman]

There are a lot of wildling men and spearwife south of the wall. Jon wanted to use them to man all the abandoned strongholds at the Wall. But when I read that I doubted that great hords of wildlings would be tempted to do that. Some of them could settle in the Gift, but some of them, the warriors, could be actual manpower for a new King of the North.

The total number of Wildlings - men, women and children - that crossed to the South side of the Wall amounts to just over 3000. And only about 1000 of them are warriors.

So no, the Wildlings will not make ANY difference to the armed numbers of the North. They are insignificant in the bigger scheme of things.

Any of the main Northern bannermen can exceed their numbers.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... I did not make that count, have to get back to the text for that. I thought there were more. Well, anyhow, besides their numbers, it is not clear who they would accept as a King and why that would be in their interest. Thank you, Free Northman!