Is Tywin Jaime's father?

[Crown]

Thats how i read it.

That's how I read it aswell, and that is exactly at how it was meant by GRRM.

[Ser Brynden the Blackfish]

Lady Genna only meant Tyrion is his father's son in that Tyrion takes after Tywin more than Jamie does behavior/character wise

[Fylimar]

I have to mention, that I love Lady Genna - why do we have to wait 4 books for this wonderful character to appear. Would have loved to see her telling Tywin that Tyrion is much more like him than Jaime - I guess she must be one of the few people in Westeros, who could do that and live to tell the tale.

Although she is right: Tyrion is more like his father than any of the other children. Cersei is too obvious and clumsy and not cunning at all (I cringe in every of her chapters, because she did something stupid - something, that is likely to bring her down - in every chapter. Jaime has some sense, but he is still afraid to really act - for most of his life, he seems to have done what his sister wants not what he wanted. I'm glad that changed a bit during the third book, I'm not finished with AFFC yet, so I don't know, how the siege of Riverrun ended.

I liked the scene between Tywin and Tyrion in the first book, where Tywin seems to recognise Tyrions abilities for the first time - sadly, that didn't last long.

TO a point, I even can understand, why Tywin didn't like his younger son: he lost his beloved wife to the child and I guess he fears mockery from others - something, he seems to be very afraid of.

[The Roaring Bear]

Really? You would describe Cersei as clever and cunning? I'd say naiive and powerhungry. She inherited Tywin's take-what-is-mine attitude, his demand for respect, and his hunger for power. Tyrion got the wits, cunning, charisma, and ability to scheme. Jaime got the ego and the ability as a warrior.

I agree with some of this. I think Cersei got a little of Tywin's persona;lity, but that she is too paranoid and full of herself to actually show any real cunning of her own.

I think people underestimate Jaime though. Since he has lost his hand his ability to reason and reason things out well is coming more to the forefront, it just hasn't been trained as well as it has with Tyrion, since Tyrion has always had to rely on it and Jaime hadn't needed to.

[TheDrawback]

I agree that it is just a view on comparing all three children with their father and if you do that according to how cunning they all are Tyrion resembles Tywin the most and I also think thats becouse he had to rely on that all his life so he had the chance to polish his skills in stead of Jaime who was training at swordfighting, jousting etc. more than on reasoning outcomes according to different decisions you can make. But now that he has lost his sword hand he has to use his cunning more than brute force so I think he is learning this through the books.

[TheLightningLord]

To echo the other sentiments, taking this too literally although given the series and other plot twists and speculation about other characters' partenage, it's easy to see where someone might question Jaime's father. Especially with Tywin making frequent comments about not really being sure if Tyrion is his son although clearly he is. Jaime isn't the clever, cunning one in the family. Cersei and Tyrion are, in a way, they are more like twins then Jaime and Cersei are.

Cersei, clever and cunning? Lol yea in her own mind. She is an idiot...

[Red Queen]

I also find it strange that Lady Genna would emphasize Tyrion's name. If each family has certain names or parts of names that get passed on, as Tywin's heir, wouldn't Jaime have Ty in his name? Yet he doesn't. I am beginning to doubt that Jaime and Cersei are Tywin's children. What if Tyrion was the only true child of Lord Tywin?

[Crowbait]

It had me thinking too for a minute! I'm glad I'm not alone ;o)

[Billywitchdr]

Ahem... still reading forum... my bad

[samih]

Of course Jaime is Tywin's son. But anyway, if he's not that means Cercei is also not his daughter since It's obvious that they're twins (they really look alike). But I'm sure Genna didn't mean it like that.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Tywin always rejected Tyrion as he saw him to be a disappointment for very superficial reasons while praising Jaime as the deserving heir to Casterly Rock.

But the truth of the matter is that Tyrion is much closer to his father in character than Jaime was or is. Tywin was blinded by rage at the fact that a ) tyrion's birth took his wife's life and b ) he's a grotesque dwarf.

But Tywin should have held Tyrion in a much higher regard. For all Tywin's cunning he was pretty stupid and stubborn when it came to the issue of his favourite son.

I completely agree and that's why I loved what she said so much. I love the irony of Twyin's hatred towards Tyrion, despite the fact that most of his good traits passed onto Tyrion as opposed to Jaime, who he holds in a much higher regard.

[TalalOfDorne]

I have to say that Jaime and Cersei being Targaryens is very likely, even if I dont like it.

[That Demon Monkey]

I have to say that Jaime and Cersei being Targaryens is very likely, even if I dont like it.

Well, it's even more likely that Tyrion is Targaryen so maybe Tywin was always so miserable because he had no children of his own.

[Aldark]

jaime and cersei were twins , and they're absolutely tywin's children. the same goes with tyrion. but as it was stated from him in the last tywin-tyrion scene , he is tywin in micrography , he is just like tywin , jaime is a man that fights , but tywin and tyrion have the same traits . they are "sceptic" and cunning people. Tywin however hated him (although i'm sure he was proud , secretly for his son , but his stubbornnes wouldn't let him admit it) because his beloved wife Joanna died when she gave birth to him and because Tyrion was born with the problems we all now and wasn't like for example his brother...

[Ser Oromus Locke]

I'm one of those readers that question every word on the first readthrough and then gets shocked regardless. As such, I've been pondering over this question as well and I think there may be some basis for Jaime/Cersei to be natural children, but not Tywin's.

Parentage and "worthiness" of succession are huge themes in ASOIAF. We get constant observations about how various characters do or do not resemble their larger families. But in this particular case, I think Martin is just trying to show us how much Jaime has changed over the course of the story.

Could be, but Joanna is also a fullblood Lannister. Something we shouldn't take too lightly. If Joanna had an affair, then her Lannister blood would be enough to produce the Lannister trademark traits. This could explain why the twins are beautiful and why Tyrion is a god-ugly dwarf... Tywin's seed is bad, and Jaime and Cersei didn't spawn from it.

Tywin was obsessed with providing a good springboard for the rest of the Lannister lineage, and whoever were to inherit the Rock, but what if 2/3rd's of his heirs, aren't even his? And the one that is, is the one who he denied every claim? Isn't that what GRRM is known for?

She should not be to literally. However it is interesting that Tyrion got the Ty family name and Jamie didn't even though he was born first

This could've also been a metaphorical choice on Tywin's part. Tywin begrudged Tytos' legacy and felt it his duty to clear the Lannister name. Hence he chose new names for his (supposed) first borns. When Tyrion of all things came about, it reminded Tywin of every disappointment he ever witnessed during his father's reign. And thus gave the impfant the trademark 'Ty'.. Tyrion is only named Tyrion because Tywin resented everything that has to do with the Lannisters previous control. Of course, this is just pure speculation.

Were there past Tyrion Lannisters? I don't believe so, but I could be wrong. Also, Tywin kinda hated his father Tytos because he was basically a fool and a pushover, so does the Ty- prefix really mean anything good?

Cersei said to Falyse that Tyrion was a kings name in the past.

Some question whether Tyrion is Tywin's son. :dunno:

I don't, but that would leave no heirs to the Rock from the main branch..

{Tywin}: Dead

- Jaime: Kingsguard

- Cersei: Woman

----- Myrcella: Girl

----- Tommen: If the truth never comes out, he'll remain King, not the Rock. If the truth comes out, he's likely ending up dead.

- Tyrion: Not Tywin's son/Still banished

Kevan: Possible if Tommen dies.

- Lancel: Son of the Warrior.

- {Willem}: Dead.

- Martyn: Possible if Kevan dies?

{Tygett}: Dead

- {Tyrek?}: Supposed dead/missing/kidnapped by Varys.

{Gerion}: Supposed dead/missing at sea.

Genna: Not eligible.

- {Cleos Frey}: Dead

----- Ty Frey: Possible if all above die, and he somehow loses his claim to Riverrun after Emmon dies.

----- Willem Frey: I guess that when all above die, including Emmon, that Ty and Willem would have to split up Riverrun and the Rock between them?

- Lyonel Frey: Younger brother of Cleos, so everything from that line needs to die before Lyonel Frey has even a glimmer of hope at the Rock.

- {Tion Frey}: Dead

- Red Walder Frey: As with Willem, if Lyonel gets Riverrun/Rock, then RWF gets the other keep.

So what's left if Tyrion is not Tywin's son?

- Kevan Lannister

- Martyn Lannister

- Tyrek Lannister, if kidnapped by Varys.

- Frey offspring that are first inline to inherit Riverrun.

Personally, I can see Kevan and Martyn dieing in order to move Varys' powerplay forward. Varys works for the Targ's, Varys eliminates the Lannister's not under his influence (Kevan, too loyal, and Martyn, would hold a grudge), and puts Tyrion or Tyrek on the Rock in order to claim Lannister forces in the Targ-conquest.

Which would mean, possibly:

- Varys: Targ's, Post-Twincest Lannisters and perhaps Dorne (Tyrion's relation with Oberyn)?

- LF: North, Riverlands, Vale.

Of course, LF still has a bucketload of plotting to do before he actually gets the North on his side, while Varys... needs to get Dany from Meereen.. Of course, that may be why the Victarion is heading there, which would add the Iron Islands to Varys' force.

All I can imagine, is that when the Braavosi come to take the debt the throne owes, the one faction to come immediately afterwards is going to bite the dust as well. And I think that will be LF:

- Iron Bank breaks Westeros' bare.

- LF tries to sweep in, gets struck in the back by Winter is Coming, whatever that means..

- Varys and Dany come in and save Westeros and reestablish Targ-rule.

Could be incredibly wrong though..

Cersei, clever and cunning? Lol yea in her own mind. She is an idiot...

I'd call Cersei broken.. She's definitely not an idiot, but she's broken to the point of no repair. Broken by forlong promises, by fear, by hurt and resentment.

I also find it strange that Lady Genna would emphasize Tyrion's name. If each family has certain names or parts of names that get passed on, as Tywin's heir, wouldn't Jaime have Ty in his name? Yet he doesn't. I am beginning to doubt that Jaime and Cersei are Tywin's children. What if Tyrion was the only true child of Lord Tywin?

Yeah, not to mention that that same chapter mentions adultery as well, as Ami likely becoming pregnant by Ser Lyle Crakehall. Even worse, Genna lampshades that Emmon may not even be the father to HER children. So apparently, having children with somebody other then your spouse kinda seems to run in the family...

[Annara Snow]

I don't, but that would leave no heirs to the Rock from the main branch..

{Tywin}: Dead

- Jaime: Kingsguard

- Cersei: Woman

----- Myrcella: Girl

---

So what if they're female? Women do inherit, they are just in line after the males (except in Dorne, where the sex of the child is not important to the inheritance order, just who is the eldest), i.e. Cersei would normally come after Jaime and Tyrion.

Of course Jaime is Tywin's son. But anyway, if he's not that means Cercei is also not his daughter since It's obvious that they're twins (they really look alike). But I'm sure Genna didn't mean it like that.

Actually, Jaime and Cersei could theoretically have different fathers, though I don't think they do. It's possible for non-identical twins to have different fathers, though extremely rare.

And BTW Jaime and Cersei looking similar doesn't have any significance. We know they're twins because they were born at the same time from the same mother. And obviously they're non-identical or else they'd be of the same sex. Non-identical twins don't actually have to look alike any more than any other two siblings.

[Ser Sabotage]

Jaime isn't the clever, cunning one in the family. Cersei and Tyrion are, in a way, they are more like twins then Jaime and Cersei are.

We can't really speak about the same kind of cunning, here. Cersei is sly but she's full of preconceptions and have no judgement.

As for Jaime's sire, Tywin may have had horns from another Lannister, or anybody else, actually. While it's a possibility, it seems unlikely that Genna Lannister would know about it. I admit Tywin could have proven barren, impotant or shy under the sheets. Otherwise, even if Jaime and Cersei had another father, nobody would really know about it if Tywin had assumed his duties diligently.

[Arolig]

Tywin is the father of Tyrion.
Joanna is the mother of Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion.
King Aerys is the father of Jamie end Cersei.

This is proved a lot of places, Jamie meeting Joannas ghost in the end of Crows, where he sees the ghost cry after he tells Joanna that Tywins kids grew up to be Knight and Queen.

Jamie and Cersei beeing Targaryens explains their Incestlove relationship, and it's also really funny how Joff is the Mad King all over again.
Cersei burns down the tower of the hand and is also mad like a Targaryen.

Also this makes Jamie not just a Kingslayer, but a kinslayer, heaving killed The Mad king(his Father), when in fact Aerys(knowing Jamie was his son), ordered Jamie to kill his father. So Jamies wows never really interviend, he just did not get who his father was at first.

Tywin knows all of this, but he is more concerned with the Lannister Legacy, now that Joff/Tommen is king and Lannister presumably got the power. He won't admit to anyone that Tyrion is his only son.
And to keep all this madness and theorys secret for a while longer GRRM kills of Tywin, just like he kills of Eddard to keep Jon's fatherhood secret.

[stormborn01]

Tyrion takes after Tywin in some aspects more than the others… Jamie's behaviour and his overall character is completely different but i believe cersei is completely different to tyrion and jamie..

although it is believed that cersei and jamie are the children of King Aerys i don't think it is really understood.

Cersei is a lot like Tywin in her attitude and her overall character compared to the boys who don't have much in common with each other or tywin,

[TheKitttenGuard]

Why is Joanna weeping be that Jamie and Cersei are not Tywinn? I saw it as Joanna having her fears realize to the extent Tywinn will go in making Cersei Queen of The Seven Kingdom. The Martells of Dorne in many ways is a Royalty that is as close to The Targaryens. Given Oberyen and Elia were on the way to Casterly Rock when she died it seem she was putting her plan in place.

Great points and does make what I think of nice ironies and Tommen/Myrcella have some Targ blood. Which is nice.