Sandor Clegane v. 9

[1234567]

To continue the discussion.......

Edit: Also please remember the Mod warning from thread....6 or 7?

[I'dsingforyou]

Thanks rapsie! I just asked on lj does anyone know what's going on? Freaking out Sandors awesomeness was contained. :)

Let's continue discussing every little thing Sandor says or does in the books...

[Jamie Lannister]

So. Query.

Sandor makes quite a few allusions to killing Gregor, to both Sansa (once or twice, I think) and Arya. It's even his bargaining chip to try and join up with Robb.

We know he's good: this is the guy who cut his way through a raving mob to save Sansa, did in some of Gregor's most fearsome men with only a child for backup, and killed Beric even with his sword aflame. But, really... would he stand a chance against Gregor himself?

[I'dsingforyou]

Ok a Sandor question. How badly do you think the Hound felt abandoning the fight at BW? Do you think he took to heart the things people said about him losing his belly for battle and thought of himself as a coward or do you think by that stage he couldn't give a stuff about what others thought about him and bugger giving his life to fire for a Lannister?

[1234567]

Ok a Sandor question. How badly do you think the Hound felt abandoning the fight at BW? Do you think he took to heart the things people said about him losing his belly for battle and thought of himself as a coward or do you think by that stage he couldn't give a stuff about what others thought about him and bugger giving his life to fire for a Lannister?

Good question. I think he is already acutely aware of what others think of him. The scene in the cave and the hut with the BWB seemed to highlight the two main problems, One being that he is a Clegane and unfortunately gets tarred with a bad name because of his brother. He even says as much to Thoros. Similarly he knows people have problem with his face and prejudge him for it (although his own attitude problem doesn't help). So I'm not sure how he really feels about the comments that he's lost his belly for fighting.

In the village with Arya he seemed to treat it as in a sort of resolute, yet another untruth spoken about me sort of way. I can't remember exactly off hand, but when Arya asks him if he's lost his belly for fighting he says no and then I think he mentions something about his brother.

I think he blames Gregor for his leaving the battle as it was Gregor who gave him the fear of fire in the firstplace. I guess most of the difficulties he's faced in life come down to that incident with Gregor.

How he is taking the news that he has been blamed for the Saltpans is another matter.

[R & R]

I've no clue what GRRM has in store for Sandor. It's quite possible that his ASOIAF arc is complete, having served the purpose of moving Arya close enough to Saltpans so that she could complete the journey on her own, and for redefining Sansa's notion of romance. Sad to say this would remove a fair chunk of bloat. In which case: Bugger!

GRRM needs to live to age 112 or so, allowing him time to write that thousand page Sandor Clegane novel.

[1234567]

But, really... would he stand a chance against Gregor himself?

The Tourney showed that he could hold his own against Gregor, but I'm not sure he really wants he dead. Afterall his hatred was what kept Jim going.

[brashcandy]

I agree with you Rapsie. I think he spent most of his life feeling a burning (bad pun) hatred for Gregor, but his interaction with Sansa seems to have gradually eased him of a lot of the hatred he once felt, along with the intervention of the EB. Before this though, although he genuinely hated Gregor, there was something that prevented him from killing him, and I'm just glad that he didn't add kinslayer to his long list of crimes. In a world like Westeros, not killing your family member seems like something to be proud of. :)

[Starbird]

Ok a Sandor question. How badly do you think the Hound felt abandoning the fight at BW? Do you think he took to heart the things people said about him losing his belly for battle and thought of himself as a coward or do you think by that stage he couldn't give a stuff about what others thought about him and bugger giving his life to fire for a Lannister?

I don't think he felt too badly. I mean, shortly after he takes off, he shows up in Sansa's room, telling her how afraid of him everyone is. The general populace (amazingly) doesn't know of Sandor's fear of fire. His men probably supported his decision not to go into battle for a fourth time. To them, it was probably a great idea to stay within the gates. The only one in the immediate area who objected was Tyrion, because his family had everything riding on the outcome of the battle. The average soldier didn't, though.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Sandor does lose interest in fighting other people's battles. I think being sent away by those villagers when he's on the road with Arya was probably more hurtful than the BBB. He seems more interested in building his own life than being part of the support structure of the Lannisters' lives. His reputation could be useful but I just don't see him actively earning that reputation for much longer.

[I'dsingforyou]

How he is taking the news that he has been blamed for the Saltpans is another matter.

So true Rapsie. There is a little piece of my heart that breaks when I think of him reforming somewhat and being on his best behaviour with Arya not to mention his possible QI redemption meanwhile his reputation is at it's worst ever after the saltpans. He'd be devastated! He just can't get a break.

[I'dsingforyou]

I see it just like you said Starbird! :)

(sorry on my phone I can't quote large posts because there is no cursor to scroll down past the quote so I'll just post above or else have to cut half it away, not annoying at all)

I don't think he felt too badly. I mean, shortly after he takes off, he shows up in Sansa's room, telling her how afraid of him everyone is. The general populace (amazingly) doesn't know of Sandor's fear of fire. His men probably supported his decision not to go into battle for a fourth time. To them, it was probably a great idea to stay within the gates. The only one in the immediate area who objected was Tyrion, because his family had everything riding on the outcome of the battle. The average soldier didn't, though.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Sandor does lose interest in fighting other people's battles. I think being sent away by those villagers when he's on the road with Arya was probably more hurtful than the BBB. He seems more interested in building his own life than being part of the support structure of the Lannisters' lives. His reputation could be useful but I just don't see him actively earning that reputation for much longer.

[Zmeischa]

Ok a Sandor question. How badly do you think the Hound felt abandoning the fight at BW? Do you think he took to heart the things people said about him losing his belly for battle and thought of himself as a coward or do you think by that stage he couldn't give a stuff about what others thought about him and bugger giving his life to fire for a Lannister?

I think he felt not just bad, but awful, but not because of what other people thought of him, but because of what he thought of himself. He can say that he didn't want to die for Lannisters, but he knows that he faced his worst fear - and failed. Considering that he sees (or wished to see) himself as mean and cruel, but strong and brave, that must have been a blow.

Of course he cares about what others think about him. The moments he acts like he doesn't give a damn are, in fact, his finest acting moments :).

[I'dsingforyou]

But, really... would he stand a chance against Gregor himself?

I think he would have a great chance fuelled by his life long desire. Otherwise he would probably die happy trying to kill him if he ever got the opportunity.

[Leigh of Oldstones]

Ok a Sandor question. How badly do you think the Hound felt abandoning the fight at BW? Do you think he took to heart the things people said about him losing his belly for battle and thought of himself as a coward or do you think by that stage he couldn't give a stuff about what others thought about him and bugger giving his life to fire for a Lannister?

I think he felt bad about it for this reason: because it forced him to leave Sansa.

I really, REALLY wish Tyrion had handled that situation better (I mean damn, he had Bronn turning the winch to raise the chain and Bronn got knighted for that shit?), but I won't get started on that. Sandor had no reason to feel ashamed of his & his mens' efforts on the battlefield. But after refusing to rejoin the battle when Tyrion commanded it, which was witnessed by many many people, he really had no other choice but to leave King's landing. Which meant that he would have to leave his little bird. Which was why he went to her room that night. To say goodbye and with the desperate hope that he could get her to leave with him, since he would no longer be able to protect her otherwise. I think that's why he was crying after she sang his song and cupped his cheek too, because not only was he having to leave her to the lions, but because in that moment he finally realized she cared for him (and I think this is when Sansa finally realized that she felt that way), which is something we assume he had hoped for but never thought would happen. And now he had to leave her.

Ugh, I get so choked up thinking about all of that, it just makes me want to cry as well.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I think he felt bad about it for this reason: because it forced him to leave Sansa.

I really, REALLY wish Tyrion had handled that situation better (I mean damn, he had Bronn turning the winch to raise the chain and Bronn got knighted for that shit?), but I won't get started on that. Sandor had no reason to feel ashamed of his & his mens' efforts on the battlefield. But after refusing to rejoin the battle when Tyrion commanded it, which was witnessed by many many people, he really had no other choice but to leave King's landing.

Yeah, this irritated me too, Ser Bronn the Oxen driver is a hero, while Sandor went out three times into hell, lost half his men and the horse he was riding, but Tyrion has to pipe up that if he's half a man, what does that make you? Tyrion quickly realized how horrible it was out there and lasts what, ten minutes max?

[Leigh of Oldstones]

Tyrion spent the whole day on top of the battlements, at one point the heat waves from the wildfire actually blew his cloak and he thought "Wow, it's awful up here. Can't imagine what it's like down THERE." (paraphrasing) Sandor and his men did NOT deserve to be belittled like that when Tyrion finally came down from his high seat to order them around. Also, afterwards Tyrion is all "I won that battle for us! King's Landing would have been lost if it hadn't been for me!" Um no... You led a sortie. That is all. The chain was genius, but it didn't stop Stannis' troops from managing to bring a battering ram up to the gates.

I'm sorry, but I just have really strong feelings about that whole episode and the fallout for Sandor.

BTW, he didn't lose his horse. When he says he lost a third of his men, "horse too," he's referring to the horse component of the troops he led into battle. I wondered about that until I read somewhere in the So Spake Martin stuff that GRRM referred to that as "horse" not "the horses."

[Hound's She-wolf]

BTW, he didn't lose his horse. When he says he lost a third of his men, "horse too," he's referring to the horse component of the troops he led into battle. I wondered about that until I read somewhere in the So Spake Martin stuff that GRRM referred to that as "horse" not "the horses."

Did not know that, I always thought he had a horse killed from under him, and that always lead me to think about where was Stranger, now I know.

[Leigh of Oldstones]

That kind of thing drives me crazy, so I'm glad I found this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/After_Renly/

May 31, 2000

After Renly

In aCoK, when Renly learned of Stannis besieging Storm's End, he rushed over there with his horse - which comprised of both Storm's End and Reach horse, right?

Right. Most of the horse, anyway. He left some.

And this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Braveheart/

December 18, 1998

Braveheart

No, BRAVEHEART was not a model. These elements -- archers raining down arrows, a charge of heavy horse, etc -- played a part in most medieval battles.

BRAVEHEART's battle scenes were very effective, though not quite historically accurate. For one thing, they left the bridge out of the Battle of Stirling Bridge.

[Zmeischa]

What really makes me agnry is Boros Blount displaying his white cloak and feeling very heroic, no doubt. I bet no one tells him that he "lost his belly".

[Lemon Cake]

At least with Boros Blount, we know from Jaime, Cersei, Margaery, and even the Hound's own comments that he is not highly thought of by people. He seems to be considered something of a joke.

But yes, it really is bullshit that a man who has good reason to be deathly afraid of fire* and who nonetheless went charging into it three different times is considered a coward because he finally said enough was enough. Then again, since when has anything in GRRM's world been fair?

(*And even though most people don't know the story of how he got his burns, anyone with half a brain should know he had a really bad experience with fire once and that he probably doesn't much like it.)