Spoiler -> UnCat = good or evil?

[The_Maltese_Wolf]

So I've been reading a few posts from people on here and the general consensus seems to be that UnCatelyn is more towards the dark side than she is the good. I've read the chapters that she's in a few times and can't really get why she's seen so badly in people's eyes - she and her son were betrayed and murdered despite having guest rights by the Freys; in being resurrected she has now gone about bringing vengeance to all those betrayed at the RW by hanging any and all Freys she comes across - to be honest, although brutal, its not otherworldly evil to bring about justice in this way - I think I remember reading that knights of the Vale were also killing Freys because they are now seen as untrustworthy and broke the ancient tradition of guest right.

Also, is it so unfair of her to believe that Brienne has betrayed her given that she is now carrying Oathkeeper and refuses to kill Jaime Lannister, the person who brought about the murder of Robb, Ned as well as the crippling of Bran?

Lemme know your thoughts as I'm a firm believer that she's still technically 'good' however maybe I'm just reading the scripture wrong?

[Jamie Lannister]

refuses to kill Jaime Lannister, the person who brought about the murder of Robb

You know, if I stabbed a random person on the street wearing an "I hate Miley Cyrus" shirt and whispered, "Miley Cyrus sends her regards," on a practical scale it wouldn't mean Miley is any more guilty of the stabbing -- just that I'm that much more of a prick for rubbing salt in the wound. :P

But yeah. I don't think evil is the right word for UnCat... perhaps vengeful is a better one. Embittered. Hateful. Justifiably so, I suppose.

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

I suppose that being un-dead means that part of your humanity leaves you (or you leave it behind), so that an un-dead person's feelings will be less complex than a live one's. The way I see it, in UnCat the rather simple and straightforward motive of vengeance has taken the place of all the more complex - and occasionally conflicting - feelings of love, loyalty and honour that Catelyn used to experience while still alive. She does not find it within herself anymore to compromise, to be merciful, to be forgiving, which makes her a "worse" (at least much less nice) person than she was alive.

But I get the impression that whatever she does or orders done as UnCat is, if devoid of passion or compassion, at least completely logical. It follows a strict and simple pattern, without surprises or irrational detours. The overwhelming motive is vengeance, and she will have her vengeance in the most efficient and straightforward way. If it means hanging Brienne, Brienne will be hanged. If Brienne can help her achieve her vengeance in an even better way, for example by - presumably - luring the Kingslayer into a trap first, Brienne's help will be accepted. There is a terrifying logic in that.

So the way I see it, UnCat has become a very cold and simple person, an automaton in a way - which makes her scary, but also predictable. Somewhat two-dimensional, too. Un-dead persons don't have it in them to plot or scheme, or to do stupid things for love. A bit boring, if you ask me. But neither Good nor Evil.

I need to read up on the final UnCat/Brienne chapter, so I may be wrong - but is UnCat aware that Brienne carries a sword given to her by Jaime and reforged from Ice? Sure, Brienne would have some explaining to do then, but does UnCat know?

[Serie]

A bit boring, if you ask me. But neither Good nor Evil.

Neither Good nor Evil, that's exactly my thought as well. I would say "Bitter".

I need to read up on the final UnCat/Brienne chapter, so I may be wrong - but is UnCat aware that Brienne carries a sword given to her by Jaime and reforged from Ice? Sure, Brienne would have some explaining to do then, but does UnCat know?

I have to re-read that, don't really remember but I think that Brienne tells her so and UnCat doesn't believe her? Correct me if I'm wrong pls.

[Zmeischa]

The trouble with unCat is that she is not Cat anymore, she is just some vengeful person with a single purpose who has reasons to hate Cat's enemies or those she believes such enemies.

[Alexia]

Personally, and I'm in the rare minority here, I like Stoneheart better than Catelyn but I liked Catelyn too. She was never one of my favorite characters, I just found her chapters too sad to really love, but she felt very real and I liked her. As for Stoneheart, I'm glad to see her finally empowered to get revenge on her enemies (though yikes, what a comedown!).

I don't think that she is evil, either, and so far as I recall she isn't hanging all Freys but only the ones who personally participated in the Red Wedding. As for Brienne, I think she's justified. Lemoncloak does a great job of summing up all the evidence against her (and there is a lot of it). I felt sorry for Podrick though, so naive of him to boast of squiring for Tyrion and fighting in battles.

[Zmeischa]

I wasn't a great fan of Catelyn, but I cannot imagine her ordering to hang a boy of Podrick age, whatever he had boasted of.

[David Selig]

The trouble with unCat is that she is not Cat anymore, she is just some vengeful person with a single purpose who has reasons to hate Cat's enemies or those she believes such enemies.

How do you know that? We don't have UnCat's PoV.

After the Red Wedding, I think she'd have dedicated herself to vengeance and becoming a merciless even if she had survived somehow and didn't have to be resurrected. Podrick has fought for the enemy, so by Westeros standards executing him is pretty normal.

Anyway, I never understood why Berik is considered the ultimate hero by most people here and unCat is supposed to be evil, when their actions are pretty much the same. Beric's trials always ended up in hangings and the Hound's trial was a sham.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Cat's last act alive was an act of vengence when she killed the fool even though he was innocent. Her last thoughts were possibly vengence as well so I think it fits that when resurrected after so long she would be a single minded in her vengence. We may not have evidence for it but I think she is no longer Cat, I don't think she'd let even Sansa, or Bran get in the way of her revenge.

[Zmeischa]

After the Red Wedding, I think she'd have dedicated herself to vengeance and becoming a merciless even if she had survived somehow and didn't have to be resurrected. Podrick has fought for the enemy, so by Westeros standards executing him is pretty normal.

Do you remember her reaction to the deaths of Willem Lannister and Theon Frey? And they fought for her enemy, the enemy who killed her husband. Did she regard their murder by Karstark as "pretty normal"?

[The White Wolf of Winter]

I need to read up on the final UnCat/Brienne chapter, so I may be wrong - but is UnCat aware that Brienne carries a sword given to her by Jaime and reforged from Ice? Sure, Brienne would have some explaining to do then, but does UnCat know?

No Brienne never mentioned anything in her chapter to unCat about that sword being forged from Ice. (Which I believe would have meant something!) I remember because it frustrated me real bad. Communication isn't one of Brienne's strong points it seems.

[Serie]

Cat's last act alive was an act of vengence when she killed the fool even though he was innocent. Her last thoughts were possibly vengence as well so I think it fits that when resurrected after so long she would be a single minded in her vengence.

I never thought of it like that and it really makes sense! Excellent comment RobOTHB!

[The_Maltese_Wolf]

Personally I'm delighted unCat is so callous and unforgiving - for too long we saw Cat, Sansa, Robb and Ned being too trusting and bound by honor and in the end they all suffered to no profit. Now unCat is finally giving the world a taste of its own medicine and to be honest I have no moral problem with it given that we're able to see how much she, her husband and her children have suffered.

Bring on ze revengez!

[David Selig]

Do you remember her reaction to the deaths of Willem Lannister and Theon Frey? And they fought for her enemy, the enemy who killed her husband. Did she regard their murder by Karstark as "pretty normal"?

It's only natural that her views changed after the Red Wedding and she became a lot more callous and harsh. It doesn't necessary mean it's because she got resurrected and now can only think about revenge and that's all that has left from her personality.

Plus in Westeros there's a big difference between the way high ranked noble captives are treated compared to someone like Pod.

[Zmeischa]

Plus in Westeros there's a big difference between the way high ranked noble captives are treated compared to someone like Pod.

Do you really belive that her distress at the sight of two dead boys is due to the fact that they were noble and high-ranked?

[Errant Bard]

Quizz, who said that:

I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. But my girls . . . my girls will . . .

[Zmeischa]

Well, saying that you want your enemies dead and kiling everyone you believe your enemy, regardless of their age, are two different cups of tea, IMHO.

Of course, Catelyn wanted Theon and Cersei dead. Who wouldn't? Who would judge her if she killed them with her own hands? Not me. But that is a natural feeling and natural desire of a human being, who is also able to feel and desire a great number of other things. What does unCat feel except hate?

I don't think that she became BAMF. I think she stopped being human, and I cannot admire that.

[ghost the direwolf]

I do not mind her been revengeful but killing Pod is very low coming from her cat-uncat. He did nothing to her and her family. So she has become bad in my book.

[Errant Bard]

I don't think that she became BAMF. I think she stopped being human, and I cannot admire that.

Oh, I don't think she became a badass motherfucker (this sounds rather ridiculous, written like that, too.)

I just think that her change didn't come from nowhere, and that it is actually very human to want revenge and be extreme about it when you children are murdered before your eyes. If we went that way, Arya would be more inhuman than her. Robert and Tywin, too, and Dany.

Her behaviour is more compassionate than the guys in her band in any case, and they don't have personal grievances against Brienne or Jaime. Are they inhuman?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Her behaviour is more compassionate than the guys in her band in any case, and they don't have personal grievances against Brienne or Jaime. Are they inhuman?

Well, I don't know about more compassionate, but otherwise, that's a very good point. I vaguely remember reading something GRRM said about Lady Stoneheart, and how she actually is different from than Catelyn Stark. (Can't remember the exact thing, something about representing only one aspect of Catelyn's personality perhaps. Google is not my friend, someone help?) But even so, what's BwB's excuse??

I think a lot of the characters, in general, have reached or passed beyond a certain breaking point due to what's been happening to them lately. Stoneheart's neither her nor there in terms of good-evil, but something of a focus for/of hatred that the BwB can latch onto and carry out what they feel is their new just cause, maybe?