Spoiler -> UnCat = good or evil?

[Arland]

I think the question "why" she is the way she is, is beyond the point. It doesn't change the character of her acts, which are intrinsically evil. She is de facto evil, since she does evil deeds (hurting the innocent).

[Errant Bard]

What innocents?

ETA:

Well, I don't know about more compassionate

I do. Lem wanted to kill three of them outright. Cat wanted to hear them first. She only kills Freys that participated in the RW, see ASOS epilogue, the BWB would gladly hang every one of them. Since she's the BwB leader, orphans are gathered and protected at the inn. There is also that draft that found itself int he russian edition, where the BwB is shown to have spies and search for the girls, which can be compared to what Beric didn't do, before. It's all in little touches.

I vaguely remember reading something GRRM said about Lady Stoneheart, and how she actually is different from than Catelyn Stark. (Can't remember the exact thing, something about representing only one aspect of Catelyn's personality perhaps. Google is not my friend, someone help?)

I can't remember this, so until you provide a reliable source, I will consider this exaggeration or delusion, nothing personal.

But even so, what's BwB's excuse??

Lannisters killed Lem's entire family. Tywin hanged Long Jeyne and Willow's family. There is something about the raping and killing of the mad huntsman daughter by Lannister soldiers, iirc. That sort of things. Is that enough of an excuse?

[Francisco Araujo da Costa]

Regarding the sword: isn't it a very Lannister-looking sword? Not full-on "look at all my lions!", but still identifiably Lannister?

[Errant Bard]

It's identifiably Lannister by the sole fact that Valyrian swords don't grow on trees, and Brienne had not one before going to King's Landing.

But yeah, there are lions carved on the pommel, plus gold and rubies.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

ETA:

I do. Lem wanted to kill three of them outright. Cat wanted to hear them first. She only kills Freys that participated in the RW, see ASOS epilogue, the BWB would gladly hang every one of them. Since she's the BwB leader, orphans are gathered and protected at the inn. There is also that draft that found itself int he russian edition, where the BwB is shown to have spies and search for the girls, which can be compared to what Beric didn't do, before. It's all in little touches.

That's interesting --- and it seems that I misremember a number of details in the ASOS epilogue. (Although, you cannot really fault me for not having heard about parts of a draft that ended up a russian edition...?) In my defense, however, I didn't mean that she was less compassionate either. My idea was that Lady Stoneheart was more of an embodied concept rather than human, but, that brings me to the next point...

I can't remember this, so until you provide a reliable source, I will consider this exaggeration or delusion, nothing personal.

Yeah, I cannot find anything similar to what I first suggested, so it may well be that I drew my own conclusions, based on answers to a related question. For instance, in this interview:

My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they've lost something.

(Note that "exaggeration or misinterpretation" might work better than "exaggeration and or delusion" if you don't want to make it personal. Claiming that someone possibly suffers from delusion might be construed as a bit of an insult.)

Lannisters killed Lem's entire family. Tywin hanged Long Jeyne and Willow's family. There is something about the raping and killing of the mad huntsman daughter by Lannister soldiers, iirc. That sort of things. Is that enough of an excuse?

Oh, I didn't (intentionally) mean to pass judgement by using that word. Did you read the end of my post?

---

(ETA: Noticed that I misquoted an or and made it into and...)

[scurvy]

As far back as the chapter in AGoT when Cat arrives at the Vale, she thinks to herself, Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone, six men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading. That's about as much foreshadowing as anyone else gets, including her future moniker.

Her conversion to a single-minded revenge monkey had been set in motion from her period sitting by Bran's bedside. She lost all of her empathy and caring for anyone other than her family at that point. Family, duty, honor. Only the family was relevant to her. Everyone else was expendable.

By the time she became unCat she had a lot of people on her hit list, but unlike Arya who also had a pretty extensive hit list, Arya only wants her "enemies" killed and she wants to protect or at least cares about everyone else. UnCat only cares about her family and killing her enemies and doesn't care if anyone else lives or dies.

[FanTasy]

As far back as the chapter in AGoT when Cat arrives at the Vale, she thinks to herself, Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone, six men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading. That's about as much foreshadowing as anyone else gets, including her future moniker.

(...)

By the time she became unCat she had a lot of people on her hit list, but unlike Arya who also had a pretty extensive hit list, Arya only wants her "enemies" killed and she wants to protect or at least cares about everyone else. UnCat only cares about her family and killing her enemies and doesn't care if anyone else lives or dies.

Good catch! I missed that foreshadowing of Lady Stoneheart completely.

About Arya I am afraid I disagree. In ADWD she killes people off rather ruthlessly, people who aren't her enemies at all. People who haven't done her any wrong.

_{Edited because of possible spoilers for people still reading ADWD, sorry},

[David Selig]

Her conversion to a single-minded revenge monkey had been set in motion from her period sitting by Bran's bedside. She lost all of her empathy and caring for anyone other than her family at that point. Family, duty, honor. Only the family was relevant to her.

Nonsense. She has demonstrated empathy plenty of times after that. Read the chapter when she visits the sept while she was with Renly - she showed empathy even for Cersei. And what about risking her life to save Brienne after renly was killed?

[little_horn]

GRRM doesn't work in good vs. evil

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Up to now, Uncat hasn't killed one person unjustly. Everyone was an adult Frey, involved in the Red Wedding.

Brienne is a traitor, because she is very naive, not intentionally, Ser Hyle and Pod are adult enemy combatants, guilty of war crimes (by association). And they are not even dead yet.

Has Uncat harmed innocents? Yes, once, about 2 seconds after her last son was killed before her eyes. A hostage she would have exchanged against his life. Is she evil? Hell, no. Is she good? Probably not, but who cares. She is a very well written character who, even only after her death, has more impact on the story than the Lightning Lord ever had.

[LittleDragon]

Well, if we take Cat's story seriously and try to imagine ourshelves into her place, how many of us would have been able to bear the loose of a whole family whithin such a short periode of time? Her husband, who she truly loved, all of her five children (she doesn't know that it's only Robb, and the four other ones are still alive), her father were all lost whithin some monthtime (I don't remember when Lysa died - before UnCat or after). She has lost a whole family, the so believed last alive child died before her eyes, she has lost both of her homes, richness, hope, everything. When she has killed the little fool, that had shown clearly that she became mad, she was not able to bear any more sufferings, her mind had collapsed. she had a moment sometimes ago when her father was dying and she has made one wrong decision after the other, that time there was a moment when she was afraid to became mad. but at the end, she has collapsed. I understand her, I feel pity for her. she should have been left peace in death. UnCat is a horrible creature in my eyes, lost all human nature, she is just an angel of vengeance.

[scurvy]

Good catch! I missed that foreshadowing of Lady Stoneheart completely.

About Arya I am afraid I disagree. In ADWD she killes people off rather ruthlessly, people who aren't her enemies at all. People who haven't done her any wrong.

_{Edited because of possible spoilers for people still reading ADWD, sorry},

Who has she killed:

stableboy in AGoT - self defense

several Lannisters in Armory Lorch's attack on her party - self defense

2 by the hand of Jaqen - strictly revenge kiling

Guard at Harrenhall gate - required to escape/self preservation

Squire @ crossroads inn - self defense

The Tickler @ crossroads inn - self defense/defense of another/revenge

Dareon - how is this any different than her father? She is upholding the Starks' duty

Money Lender/insurance agent of Braavos- this was her job- assassin test - the only one that was not justified; unless you believe in the Multi-Faced God- Valar Morghulis

I think she's pretty consistent except for the last one, which has a different idea behind it altogether.

Meanwhile Lady Stoneheart will kill any Frey, Lannister, or anyone she believes is in league with them, right or wrong.

[brashcandy]

Her conversion to a single-minded revenge monkey had been set in motion from her period sitting by Bran's bedside. She lost all of her empathy and caring for anyone other than her family at that point. Family, duty, honor. Only the family was relevant to her. Everyone else was expendable.

I don't think she lost her ability to empathise after that incident, but I do agree that Cat has long displayed troubling potential of turning into a Lady Stoneheart. The "single-mindedness" you speak of is very apt.

[Errant Bard]

2 by the hand of Jaqen - strictly revenge kiling

[..]

Money Lender/insurance agent of Braavos- this was her job- assassin test - the only one that was not justified

So, if revenge justifies killing, why do you say this:

Meanwhile Lady Stoneheart will kill any Frey, Lannister, or anyone she believes is in league with them, right or wrong.

It's revenge here too. That's some double standard you have.

Dareon - how is this any different than her father? She is upholding the Starks' duty

Mainly, since we're speaking of personality and behaviour, it differs in that Ned does not want to do it, and he even needs some meditation in a godswood afterwards, while Arya is eager to kill, full of anger and hate.

It also differs in that Ned is a lord rightfully, publicly upholding laws of his country, on the country's soil, while Arya is no lord, and enforces another land's laws unlawfully, in back alleys.

It's the difference between death penalty and murder. One could also bring the difference between Ned and Joffrey. Arya acts like Joffrey in this instance (he's a criminal: off with his head.)

[scurvy]

So, if revenge justifies killing, why do you say this:It's revenge here too. That's some double standard you have.

Thanks for taking the spoilers out, but now that it's done:

Well, Arya is personal revenge against those who have done her or her friends harm. Lady Stoneheart is against any Frey or Lannister, regardless of their personal involvement in the incident. And, she lets it spill over to those who aren't involved at all, even those who haven't even broken their oath to her, if they are unwilling to kill a Lannister.

[Errant Bard]

Thanks for taking the spoilers out, but now that it's done:

Not sure if it is sarcastic or not, but if it is: spoiler policy has ended some time ago, see the announcement:

Well, Arya is personal revenge against those who have done her or her friends harm. Lady Stoneheart is against any Frey or Lannister, regardless of their personal involvement in the incident. And, she lets it spill over to those who aren't involved at all, even those who haven't even broken their oath to her, if they are unwilling to kill a Lannister.

Patently untrue. She hangs only Freys and Lannisters that participated or fought for ringleaders of the wedding massacre. If it wasn't revenge, Meribald would be dead, he was set free, and the orphans would not be protected.

Brienne has broken her oath, right when she refused to obey an order to go kill an enemy. (she also was bought by the Lannisters, and allowed Jaime to barter Roose's betrayal, just under her nose, or so it seems for anyone not having read the books.)

And Arya kills Lannisters too. She even had an assassin say that she was bloodthirsty, after the incident

[tirhaka]

cat is evil and stupid. and shows that women in the ice and fire series cause problems when they dont follow orders... ned told her to take her ass home and make breakfast for bran and rickon..and she caused a large amount of strife by not following orders...

[Erinne]

cat is evil and stupid. and shows that women in the ice and fire series cause problems when they dont follow orders... ned told her to take her ass home and make breakfast for bran and rickon..and she caused a large amount of strife by not following orders...

:rofl:

troll harder bro

[Serie]

cat is evil and stupid. and shows that women in the ice and fire series cause problems when they dont follow orders... ned told her to take her ass home and make breakfast for bran and rickon..and she caused a large amount of strife by not following orders...

So true! And look at what trouble she's put us all into! :agree:

[Allyria Dayne]

Well, Arya is personal revenge against those who have done her or her friends harm. Lady Stoneheart is against any Frey or Lannister, regardless of their personal involvement in the incident.

I agree with this, she will kill anyone who is related to any Freys or Lannisters, even if they've never done anything wrong, like Pod or Brienne.

She is not anymore human, but I think she was quite vengefull from the start when she took Tyrion as a prisonner although he was innocent of what happened to Bran.