The Official Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread II

[Zar Lannister]

This is the continuation on the Debate of Cersei Lannister's actions, pitying her fate or enjoying her moments of wrath in the novels.

Central topic: What is it that fascinates you of Cersei Lannister?

Last subtopic: Was Cersei correct in shunning Jaime from interacting with her children?

[Verboten]

This is the continuiation on the Debate of Cersei Lannister's actions, pitying her fate or enjoying her moments of wrath in the novels.

Central topic: What is it that fascinates you of Cersei Lannister?

Last subtopic: Was Cersei correct in shunning Jamie from interacting with her children?

Not really. Jaime could have played the doting uncle, if he had any desire to, but I don't know if that would have been seen as suspicious or too much Lannister influence.

[ZacharyB]

RE Central topic: The fact that George has gone out of his way to destroy her so much fascinates me. Somehow she has gone from a beautiful woman who was pretty much right in the head (Not really, but...) to a female drunken Robert in however long the time period of AFFC/ADWD was (a year or two, if not less?).

RE Last subtopic: Jamie didn't really seem to care about her kids either way. That could just be from Cersei shunning him I guess?

I haven't read the discussion on the subtopic, if there has been any, so please excuse me if I'm incorrect :lol:

[Raksha the Demon]

Jaime cares about Jaime most of all, then Cersei, then perhaps Brienne (now that Tyrion has alienated him and left after killing their father), and finally, recently, seems to have realized that fatherhood is more than sex.

Jaime could have insisted that he be a presence in his children's lives; as their nominal uncle, no one would have suspected the relationship, especially after Robert's death. He just didn't think it worth the bother.

[Zar Lannister]

Jaime cares about Jaime most of all, then Cersei, then perhaps Brienne (now that Tyrion has alienated him and left after killing their father), and finally, recently, seems to have realized that fatherhood is more than sex.

this is something the three Lannister siblings have in common. Down to the core, they first care about themselves. Even Cersei in AFFC, who deeply cares for her children, reflects on how becoming the Lady of Casterly Rock she could go back to Lannisport in due time as she wouldn't need her children to have political power.

Jaime could have insisted that he be a presence in his children's lives; as their nominal uncle, no one would have suspected the relationship, especially after Robert's death. He just didn't think it worth the bother.

Yet, the way Cersei sees this is the same way Sansa mentioned it to Ned (he -Joffrey- looks nothing like his father -Robert-) and Lady Olenna discussed it with Sansa (tell me about this Joffrey who calls himself Baratheon but is very much a Lannister?). If Cersei is trying to keep low, then having Jaime at bay makes at leadt some sense. Don't you think?

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Ok. I'm just going to post the same thing I posted a while back in the last thread [a little edited], in hopes of gaining more sympathy for poor Cersei:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cersei, I really do. No, I'm not part of those 90%+ who think she's a fucked up bitch. In fact, she is one of the awesomest people in the books. From her POV, it is actually not so hard to feel some sympathy for the poor woman. What if you had been in her situation? In Westeros, almost everything depends on whether you have a penis or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to? She unluckly was born lacking one, and thus, she became who she is. She was shoved into a marragie with a brut who what madly in love with another woman (Lyanna) who had died. He made no secret of the fact that he visted brothels ALL the time. How would you feel in her positon? People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has SURVIVED. Thats more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she had played the game of thrones well. People call her a whore. Now, before I completely rage on that statement, I would just like to mention that Cersei, in all her life time, has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? Is it in your place to tell her when to open her legs or not? So people say that if she closes her legs, they would like her better? What bullcrap! And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters which can't deny that. So she's short-sighted, paranoid, vain, narcissistic, incestuous, greedy, power hungry, manipulative, vindictive, and petty. She wasn't born like this, she was shaped by the world around her.

And to quote someone from 'net:

"She’s a seductress as a weapon, but it comes at huge personal cost; her body is a battleground and a cage and always defined as one. We know exactly the terms of her physical give-and-take; she’s not a libertine, she’s a goddamn warrior. She’s a lion’s heart wrapped in a woman’s hide and she’s felt that discrepancy since she was born; the act of womanhood is a battle for her, and one that she’s learned to fight incredibly well, but she’s fighting all the time even when the battle cools and the only one left to fight is herself. She is not strategy: she is wildfire. I’ve seen people get angry because she isn’t a strategist, but she’s never been presented as one, not even at her finest. She knows the game inside and out, but a gameswoman does not a strategist make: she understands the terms, but she as a character is never given us as patient or calm or, ever, compromising. She wants power, not because it will let her rule, but for its own sake, because if she gives up struggling for power she gives up the terms of the struggle that defines her entire life and gives herself over to a world trying to shape her into the very things she has defined herself by not being, the very thing the world at large defines as weak. She’s a product of her world: a feminist text in a vicious misogynist mind. She’s unapologetic and cruel but also brave and entirely capable of love. She’s never easy to love but she is ruthlessly human, human in her ruthlessness, jawdropping in her ruthlessness, understandable even in her horror, internally logical even in her external senselessness, a villain and a person and the heroine of her own story even as and even because she is the architect of her own downfall. Functionally perfect narrative being."

[Kate Poem]

Ok. I'm just going to post the same thing I posted a while back in the last thread [a little edited], in hopes of gaining more sympathy for poor Cersei:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cersei, I really do. No, I'm not part of those 90%+ who think she's a fucked up bitch. In fact, she is one of the awesomest people in the books. From her POV, it is actually not so hard to feel some sympathy for the poor woman. What if you had been in her situation? In Westeros, almost everything depends on whether you have a penis or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to? She unluckly was born lacking one, and thus, she became who she is. She was shoved into a marragie with a brut who what madly in love with another woman (Lyanna) who had died. He made no secret of the fact that he visted brothels ALL the time. How would you feel in her positon? People call her stupid. I tell you, she has survived this long in a man's world. She knows that when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. She has SURVIVED. Thats more than half of the characters in the book can say. In fact, for a very long time, she had played the game of thrones well. People call her a whore. Now, before I completely rage on that statement, I would just like to mention that Cersei, in all her life time, has slept with FOUR people, THREE of the willingly. Now how does that make her a whore? Is it in your place to tell her when to open her legs or not? So people say that if she closes her legs, they would like her better? What bullcrap! And so what IF she was a whore? Again, that's more than half the characters which can't deny that. So she's short-sighted, paranoid, vain, narcissistic, incestuous, greedy, power hungry, manipulative, vindictive, and petty. She wasn't born like this, she was shaped by the world around her.

And to quote someone from 'net:

"She’s a seductress as a weapon, but it comes at huge personal cost; her body is a battleground and a cage and always defined as one. We know exactly the terms of her physical give-and-take; she’s not a libertine, she’s a goddamn warrior. She’s a lion’s heart wrapped in a woman’s hide and she’s felt that discrepancy since she was born; the act of womanhood is a battle for her, and one that she’s learned to fight incredibly well, but she’s fighting all the time even when the battle cools and the only one left to fight is herself. She is not strategy: she is wildfire. I’ve seen people get angry because she isn’t a strategist, but she’s never been presented as one, not even at her finest. She knows the game inside and out, but a gameswoman does not a strategist make: she understands the terms, but she as a character is never given us as patient or calm or, ever, compromising. She wants power, not because it will let her rule, but for its own sake, because if she gives up struggling for power she gives up the terms of the struggle that defines her entire life and gives herself over to a world trying to shape her into the very things she has defined herself by not being, the very thing the world at large defines as weak. She’s a product of her world: a feminist text in a vicious misogynist mind. She’s unapologetic and cruel but also brave and entirely capable of love. She’s never easy to love but she is ruthlessly human, human in her ruthlessness, jawdropping in her ruthlessness, understandable even in her horror, internally logical even in her external senselessness, a villain and a person and the heroine of her own story even as and even because she is the architect of her own downfall. Functionally perfect narrative being."

Maybe You are right in some way, but: when she decided "I'll give births to children of my brother" she condemned these children. It was most horrible decision from all possible decisions, I think.

And abusing her little brother and killing her childhood friend AREN"T fruits of woman's liberation, I am completely sure.

[Queen Cersei I]

Note: The following is a rather long response to some comments by posters on the previous "Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread." Read it if you have time... and are very, very brave... :thumbsup:


I'm no fan of Robert either, and poetic justice is all well and good... but not at the expense of your children. The fact that she put her own selfish (understandable, but still selfish) desire to get back at Robert ahead of the welfare of her future children does not reflect well on her.

I understand the desire for vengeance, but sometimes, if your vengeance is going to hurt someone innocent -- especially your kids -- you have to get over yourself and let it go. Yeah, it sucks, but it's still what you have to do sometimes.


 

I don't condemn Cersei for the long affair with Jaime on grounds that Incest Is Bad. Her relationship with Jaime is her longest sexual relationship; and I think she did care for him. I condemn her for it because she knowingly endangered her children by refusing to make Robert their father (to the point of using moon tea) and making Jaime their father instead, which effectively sentenced those kids to death or, if they are very lucky, banishment and exile and hardship. Being Cersei, her arrogance convinced her that she would never be caught. ... it was selfish and stupid for Cersei to have risked her children's lives for that. If Cersei was so spoiled and uncontrolled that she felt she could not live without making love to Jaime every day or week, she should have first had sex with Robert and allowed him to give her a couple of black-haired children before letting Jaime sire one. But for Cersei, her desires always come first, even to the detriment of the children she claimed to love; ...

 


Yes, that Cersei endangered her own (supposedly) beloved children in her spiteful, foolish, and brainless attempt to get petty revenge on her husband is the common interpretation of this, and very much the message that the books themselves send. Interestingly, as a woman in a patriarchal, male dominated society, Cersei strikes right at the root of that structure, sneakily shirking the duty that the entire structure depends upon—providing true born children (namely boys) for the husband her father chose for her. (GRRM takes pains to show independent women, like Asha Greyjoy who aren’t married and who sleep with whomever they please. However, interestigly (convieniently?), these women are never married, and generally obey their fathers. (Asha very much considers herself her father’s daughter, and it appears that her father fully supports her independent lifestyle, and takes no issue with her sexual actions.)

However, all of the positively portrayed married women (namely Dany and Cat), despite their strength, nevertheless unquestioningly accept a very conventional male/ female power structure with their beloved husbands. They take it for granted that their husbands have the last say, and unquestioningly (and happily) bear children to their husbands. Rather unrealistically, as Drogo takes the 13 year old Dany from behind each night, causing her great physical pain, Dany does not feel any resentment whatsoever that she must put out for her sun and stars whenever he wants to “take his pleasure”. She also unquestionably bears him children, with no inner turmoil, resentment, or anger whatsoever. )

But Cersei is different. Men like Robert Baratheon very much represent the patriarchy. Robert calls the shots, sleeps around, impregnates numerous women, gets sex with his wife whenever he wants it, and automatically assumes that his wife will bear him heirs—because that’s just the way it goes. In sneakily refusing to bear Robert’s children, Cersei subverts all of these expectations, and cuts off the patriarchy at the root. She also takes the privileges (sex with multiple partners, and bearing children with different people, doing what she pleases with her body) that men like Robert Baratheon in a patriarchal society take for granted.

Is this nice, or moral? I’d say, of course, not really. One of the many things that Cersei’s demonized for is that she is “greedy.” Tyrion defines her as “greedy for love, greedy for power, greedy for honor.” (Interestingly, she pretty much wants the same thing that Tyrion wants—power, respect, and love with a supportive mate. However, Tyrion is not really demonized for this, while Cersei is demonized to the hilt. But that’s another issue.) Her sexual actions (and, namely, her decision to have the man of her choice, rather than her lawful husband, bear her children) is, imo, supposed to be yet more proof of this greed. Cersei wants the advantages of being a wife and a queen in a patriarchal society (protection, privilege, homage from many, and a sort of power) without having to pay the accepted price (giving her body whenever her husband wants it, treating her husband with respect, and, most of all, bearing his true born children—as many as he wants.) She wants the privileges, but refuses to pay the price. Rather than giving up on the assets of femininity in a patriarchal culture and openly rebelling (as women like Asha and Brienne do), Cersei launches a far subtler and thus, far more terrifying attack. After all, if men can’t naturally assume that the children their wives are bearing are their own, what the hell would the world (depending on male dominance, male rulership, male inheritance, and overall male privilege) come to? Cersei denies her husband sex, argues with and belittles him and, most shocking of all, actually decides, after being raped and hit by him, that she will not bear his children, but THOSE OF ANOTHER MAN. Shocking indeed. And sneaky. And, let’s face it, if one honestly examines one feelings, really quite SCARY.

And, the argument goes, stupid. Because this is the way that Cersei’s actions are portrayed in the books. While the vast, vast majority of readers decry Cersei’s decision to bear Jaime’s children rather than her husband’s, one can’t depend on reader response to determine the intentions of the text itself. However, there are some issues that make me feel that it is the text itself, rather than reader response, that is presenting such a biased, one dimensional, unfair view of Cersei’s actions.

The readers arguments that Cersei’s decision to cuckold her husband and bear another man’s children was selfish/ evil generally go as follows: first, some insist that Cersei is simply an evil, cheating bitch who cheated on her husband and bore another man’s children, therefore Cersei= whore. (This argument seems rather malicious, not to mention rather poorly thought out, so I’m going to be focusing on the latter two arguments in my rebuttal.) The second argument is that Cersei’s bearing Jaime’s children was stupid, petty revenge that ended up endangering and killing countless people, since her not bearing Robert’s true born children led to the war of five kings and the ensuing chaos. Finally, some argue that though they can see where Cersei’s coming from somewhat, her refusal to bear king Robert’s children was petty and selfish, because it directly endangered the children she claims to love.

While these last two arguments seem valid to me, they are rooted in something that I see to be a fallacy—the assumption that Cersei’s bearing another mans children would immediately be obvious and easy to figure out for all those around them. Indeed, this is very much the message the text gives, with Tyrion’s reflection in ACOK, while looking at Cersei’s children, that “even one trueborn child would have been enough to throw off suspicions. But if she had done it that way, she would not be Cersei.” Now, I’ve heard many people repeat this—that Cersei should have known better than to endanger her children like this, that she should have seen that their true parentage would have been obvious to everyone, that having these kids and expecting not to get caught was merely proof of Cersei’s stupidity and arrogance, etc. However, how true is this, really? In an earlier thread, I read one poster note (regarding the fact that Robert never caught on to the Jaime/ Cersei affair) “If your wife was frequently going off on her own to pursue her own activities, would your first, second, or even 500^th thought be “oh, she must be off doing it with her brother?”

Furthermore, the blond hair and green eyes= incestuous bastard thing is pretty fucking ridiculous. It is presented as though anyone with eyes could see that the children were bastards, and Cersei a lying whore. However, why wouldn’t people just assume that the kids took after their mother? (If you think about it, though it’s pretty disgusting, Cersei’s brother possibly the best guy she could have had an affair with, besides a black haired, blue eyed, Robert Baratheon clone.) Even with the bastards, who are presented as definitive “proof” of Cersei’s infidelity and the children’s bastardy, one could easily assume that Cersei’s Lannister genes merely triumphed over Robert’s in this (fairly rare) case.

Furthermore, the book of noble heritage noting that all Lannister/ Baratheon unions ended up in black haired offspring really proved nothing—why wouldn’t one just assume that Ceresei’s particular genes were super strong, or that the fact that she was a “double Lannister” (with both parents coming from the golden haired, green eyed Lannister clan) had “super strong”, concentrated genes. (After all, Robert was “less Baratheon” than Cersei was a Lannister. His mother was an Estermont, while both Cersei’s parents were trueblood Lannisters.)

Taken together, I’m not quite sure that the following would present “undeniable proof that anyone could see” that the children are bastards. Honestly, I’m not really even sure how it would present adequate grounds for the ridiculous suspicion that Cersei and Jaime were incestuous lovers, an accusation that is as insulting as it is shocking, even more so when aimed against the children of one of the lands most powerful families. When Ned confronted Cersei in the Godswoods, saying, “The children, all Jaime’s.” It was not a question.” I was like… wait, WTF? Obviously I knew that the kids were Jaime’s by that point, and had since page, like, 60, when Bran catches Jaime and Cersei screwing. But I thought that Ned’s “proof” was ridiculous.

Of course, GRRM has noted that “genetics are different in Westeros,”… a bit of a copout, imo. Still, in the world of genetics, even when it is a fantasy world, nothing is assured. For instance, Tyrion thinks (and many posters have claimed) that Cersei should have had at least one trueborn child of Robert’s to subvert suspicion. So…. it is undeniable proof if Cersei has three golden haired, green eyed kids that look nothing like her husband; but it would be totally believable if she had two kids that looked nothing like her husband, and one that looked exactly like him? Would that scenario be any more likely according to the laws of Westeros genetics? Why would Roberts (apparently super potent, all dominant) genes fail to affect two of his children, but be given utterly to one? And furthermore, though Tyrion, and a few people on these boards, have claimed that a trueborn child of Robert’s, with his characteristic black hair and blue eyes, would have subverted suspicion away from the truth (that the two other children were not Robert’s but the result of incestuous adultery on Cersei’s part), wouldn’t it go the other way around? If Robert just happened to have one child who looked exactly like him, and then two who do not have one feature of his, wouldn’t he wonder, “hey, why does this one kid look exactly like me, while the other do don’t have one feature of mine?” If all three kids had golden curls and green eyes, it would be easy for him to write it off as Cersei’s Lannister genes being super strong; but if he had one kid that looked exactly like him and two who didn’t, questions would likely arise.

Sorry for this extended discussion, however, I’ve always found the endless complaints that Cersei should have “never been so stupid,” “was so arrogant to think that the incest wouldn’t be revealed,” etc., to be somewhat unfair. Of course, this is the way it is portrayed in the book, again and again and again. Stannis and Jon A. meet some black haired bastards of Robert’s and quickly (and unquestioningly) “know” the truth. Eddard Stark meets some bastards and reads some history of the great houses, and instantly realizes the truth, telling Cersei “the children are Jaime’s,” saying it as a completely assured statement rather than a question. Tyrion thinks that Cersei is so so so very stupid for bearing Jaime three kids with Lannister coloring, and should have borne her husband at least one son, if she had had any sense (an opinion that readers, here and elsewhere, have repeated numerous times.) LF knew all along of course, as anyone with eyes could see that green eyes and golden haired children + black haired blue eyed husband must unquestionably= hard-core evidence of an incestuous affair. The cunning Varys notes to Tyrion, (regarding Robert’s bastard’s) “their mothers were honey and brown and flaxen, and they were black as crows, every one. So when all three babies came out with golden hair, the truth was plain to see.” Really, Varys? Because, IMO, the only “truth” that would be plain in that scenario would be that the children were all very much similar to their mother in looks. :dunno:


I'm no fan of Robert either, and poetic justice is all well and good... but not at the expense of your children. The fact that she put her own selfish (understandable, but still selfish) desire to get back at Robert ahead of the welfare of her future children does not reflect well on her.

I understand the desire for vengeance, but sometimes, if your vengeance is going to hurt someone innocent -- especially your kids -- you have to get over yourself and let it go. Yeah, it sucks, but it's still what you have to do sometimes. But of course, we all know that Cersei is not so good at getting over herself, so...


 

 If Cersei was so spoiled and uncontrolled that she felt she could not live without making love to Jaime every day or week, she should have first had sex with Robert and allowed him to give her a couple of black-haired children before letting Jaime sire one. But for Cersei, her desires always come first, even to the detriment of the children she claimed to love; 


IMO, the argument that Cersei endangered her children and the realm for no other reason than personal revenge, selfish desires, and spite is not quite an accurate evaluation of the situation. She had other reasons for refusing to bear Robert’s children. Robert repeatedly forced himself upon her sexually; something considered his right in their society. This was something Dany never took issue with Drogo for (though honestly, it never appeared to occur to her to deny him.) However, Cersei, a bit more realistically, imo, resents Robert for his invasion of her body. (GRRM does portray this—when Cersei is being raped—with some sympathy. The very few occasions he expresses true sympathy for Cersei is when she’s being victimized. However, when she’s fighting back against her victimization—having another man’s children, cheating on her husband—he portrays her highly negatively; sympathy is in short supply when Cersei is not a victim.)

Quite understandably, after being raped, devalued, and hit by Robert, Cersei can’t bear to have his children. It is said that Cersei hates Robert for the wedding night incident alone, which makes Cersei seem as petty and spiteful and ridiculous as possible. However, one can’t forget the fact that (as Cersei notes in AFFC) Robert began raping her ever two weeks or so shortly after their nuptials. After having Robert force himself upon her, I don’t really blame Cersei for being disgusted by the prospect of having this man’s child inside her. As she says to Ned, “I can barely stand for him to touch me.” And, honestly, I can’t blame her. I can’t really speak for the other men and women on these boards, but I would be horrified by the prospect of carrying around the baby of the man who had raped me inside of my body for 9 months. Nor would I want to see the face of the guy who’d raped and humiliated me on the child I was supposed to love and care for. So, while I can respect your interpretation, Rakasha, that “for Cersei, her desires always come first,” I cannot, entirely, agree with it. The reason she refused to bear Robert’s children was far more complex than that.

[Woman of War]

Maybe You are right in some way, but: when she decided "I'll give births to children of my brother" she condemned these children. It was most horrible decision from all possible decisions, I think.

Would you have wanted her to abort the children? If she had not wanted them, she would have been able to avoid them, no doubt. Cersei obviously wanted children, but not from her despised husband. She chose the man she loved as father, which is somewhat normal. That man happened to be her brother, this may be rather creepy because sexual attraction between persons who grew up together seems unusual and weird - too much closeness. But the relationship was not abusive because it was consensual from the beginning.

i am definitely pro choice: if a woman wants a child she should have the right to have it. And if Cersei had decided against children at all she would have been ditched by Robert in no time. And there would never be any proof about fatherhood to the public.

[mor2]

plus such practice was fairly common during the Targ dynasty and they are not familiar with genetics.

[Kate Poem]

Quite understandably, after being raped, devalued, and hit by Robert, Cersei can’t bear to have his children. It is said that Cersei hates Robert for the wedding night incident alone, which makes Cersei seem as petty and spiteful and ridiculous as possible. However, one can’t forget the fact that (as Cersei notes in AFFC) Robert began raping her ever two weeks or so shortly after their nuptials. After having Robert force himself upon her, I don’t really blame Cersei for being disgusted by the prospect of having this man’s child inside her. As she says to Ned, “I can barely stand for him to touch me.” And, honestly, I can’t blame her. I can’t really speak for the other men and women on these boards, but I would be horrified by the prospect of carrying around the baby of the man who had raped me inside of my body for 9 months. Nor would I want to see the face of the guy who’d raped and humiliated me on the child I was supposed to love and care for. So, while I can respect your interpretation, Rakasha, that “for Cersei, her desires always come first,” I cannot, entirely, agree with it. The reason she refused to bear Robert’s children was far more complex than that.

/sigh/

I think she hated him from beginning; in her wedding morning she made love with Jaime and earlier, when she was a girl, she wanted marry Rhaegar Targaryen.

She was thinking about herself "I am center of the world" or something similar.

Robert once said something pituful as "I don't know what I could do with her, I know I can't beat her, but what can I do?".

I know, it's pitiful, stupid etc. etc. first he should'nt rape her in any way and NEVER hit her. Maybe he should simply evade her? I don't know.

It would be better if he would evade her at all cost. Maybe.

/sigh/

Edit: she is maximal hypocrite - do You remember what she said to Sansa? I hated her when I was reading that.

"You don't love a king, but he would love HIS children". /growl/

[Zar Lannister]

Oh Queen Cersei, you are so spot on with your dissertation on the Lannister genetics. I always thought Jon Arryn's and Ned's case on her was ridiculous (in terms of evidence, based on offspring of other Baratheons and Lannisters). Ned could only be truly sure after Cersei confronted him.

[1234567]

Especially given Ned's own children who all favour the Tully look apart from Arya. He even has the same problem as Robert: his "bastard" looks more like a Stark than any of hi s legitimate children.

[ZacharyB]

I always thought it was odd that the Baratheons had ALL black hair and the Lannisters ALL blonde hair. It's so improbable. Grrm should have had Ned unearth some better evidence than that anyway.

[headtrip_honey]

Quite understandably, after being raped, devalued, and hit by Robert, Cersei can’t bear to have his children. It is said that Cersei hates Robert for the wedding night incident alone, which makes Cersei seem as petty and spiteful and ridiculous as possible. However, one can’t forget the fact that (as Cersei notes in AFFC) Robert began raping her ever two weeks or so shortly after their nuptials. After having Robert force himself upon her, I don’t really blame Cersei for being disgusted by the prospect of having this man’s child inside her. As she says to Ned, “I can barely stand for him to touch me.” And, honestly, I can’t blame her. I can’t really speak for the other men and women on these boards, but I would be horrified by the prospect of carrying around the baby of the man who had raped me inside of my body for 9 months. Nor would I want to see the face of the guy who’d raped and humiliated me on the child I was supposed to love and care for. So, while I can respect your interpretation, Rakasha, that “for Cersei, her desires always come first,” I cannot, entirely, agree with it. The reason she refused to bear Robert’s children was far more complex than that.

/sigh/

I think she hated him from beginning; in her wedding morning she made love with Jaime and earlier, when she was a girl, she wanted marry Rhaegar Targaryen.

She was thinking about herself "I am center of the world" or something similar.

Robert once said something pituful as "I don't know what I could do with her, I know I can't beat her, but what can I do?".

I know, it's pitiful, stupid etc. etc. first he should'nt rape her in any way and NEVER hit her. Maybe he should simply evade her? I don't know.

It would be better if he would evade her at all cost. Maybe.

/sigh/

I don't think she hated him from the start. She said that she was happy on their wedding day, until she saw how unhappy Jaime was.

She didn't want Robert, but I don't think she hated him until he whispered "Lyanna." I think she would have been indifferent to him or even fond of him had he adored her the way she was used to men adoring her.

I can't blame Cersei for resenting Robert's infidelities.

A question - do we know if Cersei and Jaime carried on their affair before Cersei knew Robert was sleeping around? She tells Jaime that she wants Robert horned when he was off sleeping with a cousin or something, and she liked to think that that was the night Joff was conceived. I know she and Jaime slept together the morning of the wedding, but I wonder if there were encounters between that and the night of Joff's conception...

[Zar Lannister]

I always thought it was odd that the Baratheons had ALL black hair and the Lannisters ALL blonde hair. It's so improbable. Grrm should have had Ned unearth some better evidence than that anyway.

Cleos Frey (son of Genna Lannister) does not have blond hair.

[ZacharyB]

Cleos Frey (son of Genna Lannister) does not have blond hair.

Freys are red demon spawn, and thus can overcome the ever persistent blonde hair Lannister gene. It is known.

But seriously, Lannisters still have like a 99% blonde rate. Uncanny.

[Alexia]

Freys are red demon spawn, and thus can overcome the ever persistent blonde hair Lannister gene. It is known.

:crying:

I have always had a soft spot for Ser Cleos. Surely "red demon spawn" is an exaggeration?

[JonHo]

Freys are red demon spawn, and thus can overcome the ever persistent blonde hair Lannister gene. It is known.

But seriously, Lannisters still have like a 99% blonde rate. Uncanny.

Haha oh my god this made me laugh out loud.

[Kate Poem]

I don't think she hated him from the start. She said that she was happy on their wedding day, until she saw how unhappy Jaime was.

She didn't want Robert, but I don't think she hated him until he whispered "Lyanna." I think she would have been indifferent to him or even fond of him had he adored her the way she was used to men adoring her.

I can't blame Cersei for resenting Robert's infidelities.

A question - do we know if Cersei and Jaime carried on their affair before Cersei knew Robert was sleeping around? She tells Jaime that she wants Robert horned when he was off sleeping with a cousin or something, and she liked to think that that was the night Joff was conceived. I know she and Jaime slept together the morning of the wedding, but I wonder if there were encounters between that and the night of Joff's conception...

She did'nt say "I was happy". She said Robert said something as "all people in King's Landing love you and smile to you my lady".

She slept with Jaime when and where she could I think, but maybe I am wrong.

I understand she resented his infidelities, because her pride was hurting, but she never did love him, I am completely sure.