The Official Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread II

[headtrip_honey]

Freys are red demon spawn, and thus can overcome the ever persistent blonde hair Lannister gene. It is known.

But seriously, Lannisters still have like a 99% blonde rate. Uncanny.

Isn't it implied that Genna's kids aren't her husband's?

[Silmarien]

Isn't it implied that Genna's kids aren't her husband's?

Yes, GRRM hints this is true. Emmon Frey was terrified of Tywin, so Genna could do whatever the hell she wanted.

[Stannis the Great]

I'm not so sure because Cleos Frey looks quite similar to Emmon Frey but then again all Freys look the same. For all we know this could be Black Walder's handiwork.

[LordBloodraven]

I'm not so sure because Cleos Frey looks quite similar to Emmon Frey but then again all Freys look the same. For all we know this could be Black Walder's handiwork.

What? Cleos is older than Black Walder I think? Cleos could be Emmon's son, but the younger ones are probably not.

[Stannis the Great]

My mistake, I meant that it could have been any promiscuous Frey at the Twins.

We don't have much information on the other children except that one was brown-haired and fought when he was being murdered by Karstark. According to Martinian genetics that suggests that the father isn't a Lannister. :P

In all seriousness I think Gemma (if she did have an affair) did the smart thing by mixing-and-matching her children because it casts a bit of doubt on any questions of illegitimacy.

[Silmarien]

True, I forgot that Ser Cleos is described as looking like a weasel. So he's probably a Frey, but the other kids might have different fathers.

[Valmorfëa]

I think some things need to be considered in the context of Westeros. Arranged marriages are the norm, and like it or not, both parties have to deal with not necessarily liking each other. To me, saying "Robert was evil, he raped Cersei" is oversimplifying. Cersei may not have loved Robert... but it was her duty (she could have refused the marriage, but then she would not have been Queen) to sleep with him and give him heirs. We may not like it, but it was considered 'normal' at the time. That does not excuse what Robert did, but neither does it excuse Cersei's behaviour later in the books.

On the other hand, it also wasn't unusual then for women and men to sleep around and bastards abound. So I am not so bothered by the fact that she bore Jaime's children, and Robert didn't seem to care either (otherwise he might have wondered why so many blonde kids).

If Cersei truly was a 'woman's woman' trying to get by in a 'man's world' she would not have been so horrible to Sansa, to Margaery, and whoever else stood in her way. If she had helped them, groomed them, made them dependent on her... it would have given Cersei more power and she could have made sure that what was done to her would not happen to them! Now that would have empowered the women of Westeros!

Instead she sees every woman as competition that needs to be brought down, she lets Joffery abuse Sansa, threatens her, etc. To me that is not a sign of a good-hearted, misunderstood woman.

At one point she complains that nobody will listen to her because she's a woman. But this isn't true. They won't listen to her because she makes bad decisions and she is unwilling to listen to anyone who doesn't tell her exactly what she wants to hear. Not to mention that she uses sex to manipulate the men around her.

If she wanted real respect she should have listened to her advisors and considered her actions instead of acting rashly thinking she knew best. The council don't dislike her because she's a women, but because she's Mad Aerys returned.

Perhaps if Tywin had groomed her for rule (and I remember this being a regret of hers) then maybe she would have been competent.

[headtrip_honey]

She did'nt say "I was happy". She said Robert said something as "all people in King's Landing love you and smile to you my lady".

She slept with Jaime when and where she could I think, but maybe I am wrong.

I understand she resented his infidelities, because her pride was hurting, but she never did love him, I am completely sure.

Actually, she does. The text says, "For that one short moment she was happy in her marriage...until she chanced to glance at Jaime."

And I never said she loved him - I said that I don't think she hated him until she realized he was still pining for Lyanna. Had he tried to show gentleness and affection to her, then I think she may have been as content in her marriage as someone married to a person they didn't love could be. (Which was the majority of marriages among the nobility)

She would have been content to give him true heirs.

My question regarding her affair with Jaime is that I don't think we know if they slept together between her wedding and Joff's conception. I was truly asking if there is any textual evidence.

[headtrip_honey]

I think some things need to be considered in the context of Westeros. Arranged marriages are the norm, and like it or not, both parties have to deal with not necessarily liking each other. To me, saying "Robert was evil, he raped Cersei" is oversimplifying. Cersei may not have loved Robert... but it was her duty (she could have refused the marriage, but then she would not have been Queen) to sleep with him and give him heirs. We may not like it, but it was considered 'normal' at the time. That does not excuse what Robert did, but neither does it excuse Cersei's behaviour later in the books.

On the other hand, it also wasn't unusual then for women and men to sleep around and bastards abound. So I am not so bothered by the fact that she bore Jaime's children, and Robert didn't seem to care either (otherwise he might have wondered why so many blonde kids).

If Cersei truly was a 'woman's woman' trying to get by in a 'man's world' she would not have been so horrible to Sansa, to Margaery, and whoever else stood in her way. If she had helped them, groomed them, made them dependent on her... it would have given Cersei more power and she could have made sure that what was done to her would not happen to them! Now that would have empowered the women of Westeros!

Instead she sees every woman as competition that needs to be brought down, she lets Joffery abuse Sansa, threatens her, etc. To me that is not a sign of a good-hearted, misunderstood woman.

At one point she complains that nobody will listen to her because she's a woman. But this isn't true. They won't listen to her because she makes bad decisions and she is unwilling to listen to anyone who doesn't tell her exactly what she wants to hear. Not to mention that she uses sex to manipulate the men around her.

If she wanted real respect she should have listened to her advisors and considered her actions instead of acting rashly thinking she knew best. The council don't dislike her because she's a women, but because she's Mad Aerys returned.

Perhaps if Tywin had groomed her for rule (and I remember this being a regret of hers) then maybe she would have been competent.

Because we've seen how well it works out when one tries to refuse Tywin, who orchestrated the marriage with Jon Arryn.

And I'm sorry, I don't care how "normal" it was back then, but it wasn't her DUTY to allow herself to be raped whenever Robert wanted sex.

I don't think Robert was "evil" - but I do think he was a douchebag and an abuser. Cersei even mentions how he would act ashamed the mornings after he would assault her, and blame the wine. Even HE knew what he was doing was wrong.

No one is saying that Cersei is good-hearted. She's not. She's prideful, vindictive, and selfish. But so are many other characters, and they don't get the same amount of scorn and abuse as Cersei.

She "uses sex" to manipulate people because, as a woman in male-dominated society, there is very little for her to bargain with. And let us remember, she has slept with all of 4 people in the entire series. Her husband, her long-term lover, Lancel, and one of the Kettleblacks. And the Kettleblack encounter was not intended - it was a terrifying near-rape. (I say near-rape, because she tacitly consents, but she never intended to sleep with him and had she protested it would not have mattered)

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Really, IMO, the one amazingly dumb thing Cersei did was to ever admit to anyone (much less Ned Stark) the truth of the situation. When they had their ill fated chat, she should have simply pointed out that fourbof Ned's five "trueborn" children looked far more Tully than Stark, and asked if Ned thought that meant that Edmure must therefore be their natural father. She has come this far with the lie, why suddenly come clean to an enemy? Robert and Ned's relationship was crumbling already and I believe Robert would rather have believed Cersei's denials than Ned's accusations.

[headtrip_honey]

Really, IMO, the one amazingly dumb thing Cersei did was to ever admit to anyone (much less Ned Stark) the truth of the situation. When they had their ill fated chat, she should have simply pointed out that fourbof Ned's five "trueborn" children looked far more Tully than Stark, and asked if Ned thought that meant that Edmure must therefore be their natural father. She has come this far with the lie, why suddenly come clean to an enemy? Robert and Ned's relationship was crumbling already and I believe Robert would rather have believed Cersei's denials than Ned's accusations.

I think Cersei was (rightly) paranoid that Robert wanted to get rid of her. Remember, Renly was shopping around Margaery as Robert's new bride. In the tower with Jaime, before Bran saw them, she says "I tell you, he loves me not."

He loved her father's money, and perhaps fear of Tywin would have prevented him from setting Cersei aside, but she was hedging her bets.

[Zar Lannister]

Isn't it implied that Genna's kids aren't her husband's?

Didn't the text say something about Cleos looking very much a Frey, though?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

To me, saying "Robert was evil, he raped Cersei" is oversimplifying. Cersei may not have loved Robert... but it was her duty (she could have refused the marriage, but then she would not have been Queen) to sleep with him and give him heirs.

Popular as I am sure this will make me, I have to agree with this. I have never been able to get on the "Robert constantly raped Cersei" bandwagon. Sex is a part of most marriages and Robert was certainly not abnormal in expecting that his would include at least reasonably regular sex. I know that if I went months or years refusing my husband sex, our marriage would end (unless it was for some medical reason). Since divorce did not seem to be an option in Westeros (we never hear of one that I can recall), Robert's only options to have heirs was to have sex with Cersei, or "set her aside" (which seems to be an all purpose phrase for "find some way to get rid of her").

Most women throughout history, up until really this part century, went into marriage knowing that the "wifely duty" was simply a part of marriage; and that realistically means for most of us (even nowadays) that there are just going to be times when you have to suck it up and make your man happy, even if you are not particularly in the mood. Cersei's plan seems to have been to flat out buck the system permanently, and that is as unrealistic a proposition as she could possibly have come up with. She was knowingly putting herself in a situation where her position would be precarious at best. You can only gore an ox so many times before he gores back.

Would Robert have been a faithful and adoring husband if Cersei had done her "duty" where sex was concerned? Probably not. But the reality is that Cersei had to live by and within the mores and system of her time and station, whether they were right or wrong. I think we can all agree that a system that condones forced sex on one's wife is wrong, but we are looking at it from our 21st century viewpoint. Robert was looking at it from a Westerosi viewpoint, which said that he was more or less getting gypped.

I am not sure if I am making sense. What I am trying to say is that is is psychological anachronism to think that every time Robert had sex with Cersei, it was rape, simply because she found him undesirable. By that standard, most women have been "raped" by our husbands at some point, when we went along with sex to please them despite the fact that we really did not want to right then. In period, a man could go to the hall, sit down at a table, and explain that he's had to more or less pin his wife down the night before in order to claim his rights, and the reaction he is most like to get from the other men at the table is understanding nods. From Robert's perspective, what he was doing was not rape by any means, however bad he may have felt about his roughness the next day. There is a very clear concept of rape and what constitutes it in Westeros (luckily for the Night's Watch) and insisting on one's conjugal rights did not fit their bill.

Again, not saying it was right by OUR standards, but I would be shocked if Robert ever thought of himself as a rapist, or indeed if Cersei really believed she was a victim of rape, as such. The victim of a brutish, selfish, churlish, unfaithful husband, yes ... But probably not rape. The idea that rape was possible within a marriage simply had not been born yet. Heck, it is hard to prove it NOW!

[headtrip_honey]

Didn't the text say something about Cleos looking very much a Frey, though?

True. I'd bet that Genna made sure the eldest was Cleos's, and then just did as she pleased.

[Alexia]

In period, a man could go to the hall, sit down at a table, and explain that he's had to more or less pin his wife down the night before in order to claim his rights, and the reaction he is most like to get from the other men at the table is understanding nods.

It seems more likely that he would get a load of mockery that the only way he could get his wife to have sex with him is by pinning her down on a table.

Having sex when you aren't in the mood is not rape. Being brutally sexually violated by a drunken man who leaves you raw and in pain afterward is.

[Woman of War]

Yes, as gross as this may seem to us today, I guess even most woman would have agreed in that timesetting that a man could expect his wife to sleep with him, horrible as it is. And there was no divorce if you were fed up with that scumbag in your bed, if it got too hard you could kill him, no other way.

[headtrip_honey]

It seems more likely that he would get a load of mockery that the only way he could get his wife to have sex with him is by pinning her down on a table.

Having sex when you aren't in the mood is not rape. Being brutally sexually violated by a drunken man who leaves you raw and in pain afterward is.

Also, there is a difference to consenting to a sexual encounter when you aren't in the mood because you love your partner, and not fighting back against someone who has already shown himself to be willing to be physically violent to you. Cersei *couldn't* say no to Robert. Not realistically, anyway. If I were not in the mood, I *could* say no to my husband without fearing that he'd force himself on me or hit me.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

True, but nowadays there are laws in place to prevent or at least punish that kind of behavior. Back then, they would have been more likely to give Cersei some kind of potion and wonder what was wrong with her, than care whether sex left her bruised up.

And that is all I am trying to say. Every human has had to make their way in the world that was given to them. Cersei had to know and expect that husband's "rights" were going to be part of the price of all those bits about being queen that she so reveled in. If I were to marry the equivalent today, say Donald Trump, I would assume going in that in exchange for all the benefits I would be getting, regular and enthusiastic sex would be part of my end of the bargain (probably explains why I never found rich men very attractive lol).

If Cersei lived today, not one of her actions or viwews would be viewed as nuts or bitchy (excepting the whole incest thing). But she did not live in the 21st century. She knew (or should have known) that the law favored the man, that the king gets what he wants, and if you want the benefits of being queen, then the downsides go with it too ...including foreplay often being confined to a snap of fingers and "lay down. Now."

[headtrip_honey]

True, but nowadays there are laws in place to prevent or at least punish that kind of behavior. Back then, they would have been more likely to give Cersei some kind of potion and wonder what was wrong with her, than care whether sex left her bruised up.

And that is all I am trying to say. Every human has had to make their way in the world that was given to them. Cersei had to know and expect that husband's "rights" were going to be part of the price of all those bits about being queen that she so reveled in. If I were to marry the equivalent today, say Donald Trump, I would assume going in that in exchange for all the benefits I would be getting, regular and enthusiastic sex would be part of my end of the bargain (probably explains why I never found rich men very attractive lol).

If Cersei lived today, not one of her actions or viwews would be viewed as nuts or bitchy (excepting the whole incest thing). But she did not live in the 21st century. She knew (or should have known) that the law favored the man, that the king gets what he wants, and if you want the benefits of being queen, then the downsides go with it too ...including foreplay often being confined to a snap of fingers and "lay down. Now."

Oh she knew. So she took it...but refused to give him heirs. And eventually had him killed.

While I don't condone murder, I don't fault the feelings that led to the act.

[Zar Lannister]

If Cersei lived today, not one of her actions or viwews would be viewed as nuts or bitchy (excepting the whole incest thing). But she did not live in the 21st century. She knew (or should have known) that the law favored the man, that the king gets what he wants, and if you want the benefits of being queen, then the downsides go with it too ...including foreplay often being confined to a snap of fingers and "lay down. Now."

... Well, no ... She'd still be considered wicked evil for murdering the Robert's Bastards, and insane for knowingly having Falyse experimented upon by Qyburn.

But in terms if her sex life with Robert, I see where you're going.