Theories on Bran and Aegon

[VaramyrSixchins]

Aegon being the bastard son of Eddard while Jon is the trueborn son of rhaegar strikes me as wholly illogical. Why would Ned and Ashara agree to do it like this?

You can make the argument, based on textual clues and the timeline of events, that Elia actually gave birth to the stillborn girl Selmy mentions, and switched with Ashara's healthy baby boy (Fathered by Ned or Brandon, according to who you believe more likely) that was born around the same time.

Thus, Ned thought his (or Brandon's) baby was stillborn, and Ashara, not knowing about the Spider's switch, thought her son was killed in the KL sack and killed herself.

I know this scenario has more baby switching than a Telemundo soap, and a few logistical holes, but as far as explaining how Aegon could be Stark+Dayne, it's the most plausible I've come across.

[Br4nFl4k3s]

I think Aegon is Oberyn's son by a Blackfyre

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Oberyn has all daughters and never sired a son so I doubt aegon is his one son out in the world. I think there is something interesting about oberyn only having bastard daughters. Aegon being his bastard son would ruin it.

[redriver]

Thus far the others have only attacked members of the night's watch. If we're theorising that Bran can be unknowingly coerced into doing 'evil' (Obviously, Bran's motives are good ones...) then how abou the entire concept of the watch being similarly unknowingly wrong.

What if the WALL ITSELF is the reason for the weird seasons. The COTF may have made a deal with the first men, and helped build the wall, but they did not have to be honest about it. The wall is magical, and that magic in enhanced by the existance of the watch. What better long-term plan than have a magical building, that unleashes zombies and murderous cold on the very people who are enabling it's magical powers.

Mormont's crow is Warged by Mormont... LOVE that idea, if it's not him, then I will weep, openly.

Well,it's a raven,not a crow.Trust me.

[Br4nFl4k3s]

Oberyn has all daughters and never sired a son so I doubt aegon is his one son out in the world. I think there is something interesting about oberyn only having bastard daughters. Aegon being his bastard son would ruin it.

gratuitous child murder ftw

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

All oberyn's children have his eyes. I think tyrion would of noticed if aegon had purple viper eyes. All the sand snakes have viper eyes

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

Either Jon, perhaps through Ghost, or Bran is going to discover the source of the whitewalkers in the land of always winter in WoW...thats a certainty

I have my money on Jon. Either Ghost goes there with Jon in him or the WIghts attack the wall, and carry his dead body, only to be resurrected as an Other :o

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I doubt jon will discover the truth as ghost. We always see they act like wolves in warg form. It makes a lot more sense that bran would discover the truth in the trees. He already saw the heart of winter once. It makes more sense to follow his storyline. Plus the trees are like an infinite amount information of history and direct details to the story. George can show us virtually anything from the story. This has added a ton of new options for revealing new information

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

Yeah but Trees are just like spy cams, rather have a living person in Land of Always Winter

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

If we have a living person in these lands it will be benjen. The wolfs don't make discoveries. The wolf povs work for a little while but constant jon inside ghost would be so boring. They don't think the same inside an animal. When varamyr is in his wolf he calls knives and weapons teeth. And babies pups. It would take a whole different language to explain the others. Which is already extremely complicated in normal human speak. It makes much more sense for bran to discover the answer. He already saw it once. And it terrfied him. Why would martin continue this storyline through ghost? Its much more fitting for the all knowing greenseer to see the answer in the trees. The three eyed crow showed it to bran once I believe thats where we will see it again. It would also take ghost forever to pad on up to the lands of always winter. They are a huge distance from the wall. He can't just fly there or teleport there. Bran can be there in a heart beat by going beyond the trees.

[Benjamin F. Case]

Bran theory

He is very likely to either be or currently in the company of a Greenseer who becomes the Great Other. I think the Children are feeding off Jojen's Magic( and it's killing him or is turning him into a weirwood.) and also that Brynden the 3 Eyed Crow Rivers would often warg into his raven body when he was a Night's Watchmen and was seduced by the Children of the Forest who wished to resurrect the Great Other. Which is a Wight Ice Dragon inside of the Wall.

He tried to run away, he got injured and he warged his body into a weirwood, which could be the fate of all Greenseers. Either way they need a replacement patsy and Brynden either wants to use Bran's abilities to raise the Great Other or he wants Bran's body for himself. He will be slain by Azor Ahai and I think that Bran will live on in Summer after his body dies.

Aegon Theory.

Aegon is a Targaryen.

"The Dragon must have three heads" - Maester Aemon.

Master Aemon recieved a Raven before his nephew died about the Song of Fire and Ice. So at least three people we know of had known the song before the events of the books. This was also when Maester Aemon could still use his eyes mind you.

If Rhaegar had two children, with Elia who was no longer able to bear children due to her fragile health, and Rhaegar needed three dragons to fufill the prophecy then it seems that his wife, Elia would at least understand his compelling need to find the suitable mother for the third Dragon.

Now who do we know that manages to hear everything in the kingdom, especially King's Landing?

If you said Varys, then you win.

Imagine Rhaegar playing the Song of Ice and Fire on his harp for his wife and newborn Aegon. Imagine a little bird eavesdropping and reporting everything back to the man who claims only to serve the realm. It would be a good bit of knowledge to sit on. Especially after the Battle where Rhaegar falls dead to Robert on the Ruby Forge.

Suppose that Ashara had been "dishonored with consent" by Eddard Stark at the Tourney of Harrenhal in a moment of honor bound lapse (Like Robb with Jeyne Westerling, Brown Chicken Brown Cow) Okay, so their hook up results in bastard, Not Jon, Not Aegon, but Eddard Jr Stark - Dayne. This baby is had in secret, only Wyla knows about it and Ashara goes up to King's Landing at the behest of her Brother, mayhaps tipped off by the eunuch that Starfall might become hostile soon. Anyways we have Elia and Ashara in the Red Keep as Tywin is at the doors of King's Landing. Varys convinces Elia and Ashara to switch their boys and Ashara departs for Lys( a place Varys sends everybody) or Pentos to be with Illyrio.

Ashara gives up her name and becomes Septa Lemore after the events at Tower of Joy and Roberts Rebellion and eventually raises Aegon as a replacement for the son she lost and gave up.
All because Varys knew the song was important.

I also think that Rhaegar may have let Varys in on the whole plan and used him to execute the plan in case he died and of course made him swear his oath to the Realm.

All of this is just stuff floating in my head. Just because GRRM loves Royal Scandals and anything that adds flare to history. He's good like that, but at the same time he could flip it around and do something wild with both characters that we either love or hate and grow to love. In the end we live with it, and hopefully we find out soon.

[matchesmcfly]

 

 

I've got a couple of theories and an observation that I think are worth mentioning. My copy of DwD is with a friend so i'm struggling to source quotes:

1) I think Bran may turn out to be the Great Other. All along, there's the assumption that the 3-eyed crow is good because, well, because Bran likes him, and if Bran likes him he must be good, because we like Bran. Similarly, we assume that the Old Gods are good because the Starks like them, and if the Starks like them......

The problem here is that we've seen no evidence what-so-ever that the old Gods and the Weirwoods are anything but freaking sinister. We know that the weirwoods are linked to human sacrifice and we know that they look pretty evil. Now before anyone picks me up on how GRRM plays against stereotypes and appearances, I actually think he doesn't. There are many minor characters who look evil, and who are evil. He uses appearance as short-hand a surprising amount.

We now know that the 3-eyed crow is actually a gentleman of seriously dubious reputation, who has a servent who is a wight (warging into him perhaps) and who is gradually being taken over by a tree. We know that Jojen is having some serious troubles in that cave, and that the Children of the Forest aren't exactly friendly. In Mellisandra's chapter, she thinks something about The Great Other being beyond the wall surrounded by darkness. Bran is told something very similar about how he'll some to embrace the darkness in his final chapter.

All series we've known that a big good (well warm at least) vs evil confrontation is coming. We suspect that Dany / Jon / whoever is Azor Ahai, but there's hardly any debate on who the enemy is. Surely Bran is a prime candidate for what would be the ultimate tragic role, duped into becoming the ultimate bad guy due to his desire to be whole again.

Of course, the Old Gods being 'evil' then starts to have knock-on effects with the Starks and their Dire Wolves, which is where it really starts messing with your head.....

2) I'm placing my 2 cents on Aegon being the offspring of Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark. Jojen's story of the tournament at Harrenhal seems so important to me. Pretty much he only character we haven't met from it is Ashara. She also gets mentioned by Barristan a couple of times towards the end of DwD, so somethign is being hinted at.

We've been told that she killed herself after a still birth, but as her body was never found, its pretty suggestive that she's still alive and significant. If she is Lemore, as has been theorised, the question then becomes what is she doing? The answer could be that she's taking care of her conviniently violet eyed son.

And as to the Ned link, we know that she and Ned were interested in each other. Accepting that Jon is who we think he is, Ned has never actually denied fathering a bastard at any point (although I'd assume that he thought 'Aegon' died at birth. Maybe he did, but Jon isn't him. The key argument for me though is this; wouldn't it be cool? I mean seriously, Ned Stark's son being the fake pretender to the throne. Imagine the irony, and there've got to be a few mega twists coming up. :P

I'd be interested to hear what people who are clued up on the time-lines think to this.

3) I've read a few threads suggesting that Mormont and his raven were warged, but there's very little evidence. Its tenuous, but in the prologue to DWD, Varamyr thinks that it would be comforting if his wolves ate his body after his death. About 50 pages later (sorry no book to hand) Jon contemplates how the raven ate Mormonts face after his death. As I said, tenuous, but I noticed it and it does help build a case.

 

 

i remember reading somewhere that r'hllor and the great other are one in the same, and in another instance is that Bloodraven is actually r'hollr. i think it would be pretty amazing if the two fought it out in some wargy way.  like bran takes commanded of the whitewalkers via his weirwood throne, and bloodraven skinchanges viserion and they duke it out.

 

regarding number 2, I'm actually starting to hope Aegon IS Ned's son regardless of the physical differences, not just for the irony, but because i think it would be nice to now that ashara is alive and has a peace of ned with her. 

 

i don't know how genetics works in ASOIAF, but i would think given all of the magic, that dark haired ned, and dark haired ashara could have a super blond kid, considering ashara's nephew, and one of her cousins look exactly like dragon spawn. i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. it's not out of the realm of possibility in real life.

 

not that there's any relevance to this fantasy but, baseball player david de jesus (who's quite ned stark looking) and his wife kim(who's quite ashara looking, seriously, her eyes are so blue they almost look purple) have a super blond kid who looks like what i'd imagine edric dayne would look like.

[LionOfLannisport]

Do we know anything about ned's mother? Hair color, family she's from, northern house or southron?

 

If Stark genes are dominant, then Ned could show the phenotype of a stark while still possessing a recessive gene on the other side. This would enable a match with Ned to result in many more gene combinations as well as explaining why Tully features appear to be dominant over Stark genes. This may not be so, if anyone knows anything about gene recombination and the production of gametes (sperm and eggs) then you know that a gamete only possesses one half of each chromosome. A chromosome that possesses the recessive half of a gene can combine with other recessive genes and the phenotype will show which ever is more dominant of the two. 

 

Point to make here is that the recessive genes from Ned, presumably his mothers since he has the "Stark" look , could combine with recessive genes from Ashara, again here assuming that the Dayne hair coloring is recessive to whoever she gets her dark hair from. This combination of recessive genes will produce a new dominant gene and this could explain how a son of Ned and Ashara would have the Dayne look even if Stark genes are typically dominant over other genotypes. 

 

Not trying to write a paper explaining genetics on here so if you are confused with how this might be possible please google Punnett Square and take five minutes to understand how genetic recombination works and you will understand that not everyone will look just like one parent or another.

 

tl;dr - Ned's recessive genes + Ashara's recessive gene for hair color and her more dominant genes for eye color= A Ned bastard with Targ coloring. 

 

edited for grammar

[Bran the Bringer]

Yeah but Trees are just like spy cams, rather have a living person in Land of Always Winter

They are more than spycams. Much much more. The spycam thing is just a viewpoint that Pre-Pact First Men and the invasion era Andals mistakenly assumed was the only thing the CotF were doing with the trees.

 

I would also like to take the time to throw in a little bit more into this theory than is textually evident about the Weirwods;

.  If Weirwoods are a magical tree analogous to Aspen trees in our own world, and I do believe them to be, then we musn't forget the roots. The roots of the Aspen can reach miles and miles underground, laterally not in depth necessarily,     seeking out other Aspen roots and mingling with them to form large continuous biomasses that are hands down the largest single entity biomasses in the planet. Stands of Aspens are all really "one tree" and stands separated by miles may even be part of the same biomass. If the roots connect they all begin to share nutients, diseases and photosynthetic energy. If you cut down an Aspen, all the way to, or underneath the ground even, and do not remove the roots they can and usually do grow back much to the dismay of many Colorado gardeners such as myself. They continue to share nutirents through the entirety of the root sytem even if the "connecting tree" has been cut down, just waiting for the right conditions to regrow that connecting tree. So that may mean that even if the visible Weirwood has been cut down, and most of them are stumps therefore not removed root and branch, that the "powers" that the Weirwood gives may be possible even in the South where they have been cut down but the roots not removed. The text seems rife with with descriptions of the roots all intermingling with themselves and continue growing together of into the darkness of the tunnels and the earth. As far as I can tell everywhere Bran looks in the Cave and in the tunnels beyond there are Weirwood roots so it may be , due to the different and magical nature of Westeros and "Planetos" perhaps as well, that all the roots everywhere in Westeros are connected and the powers usable by those inhabiting the trees may run the whole length of Westeros, perhaps with the exception of Dorne. (The roots may still be in Dorne but the conditions there make it inimical to Weirwoods being able to regrow or live there now.) Anyways enough supposition just looking for real world analogs and theorizing on the existant text to make it fit.

 

They have all the knowledge of every CotF that has merged with the weirwoods, and possibly any First Men who have merged as well. Possibly 12,000 (First Men alone) or more years of history recorded in the roots. That's definetly more than a spycam and would allow Bran to have knowledge that no one else, save BR, could possible ever hope to achieve. Even Aemon the Maester would not have the vast amount of information at his fingetips that Bran does. Aemon might know more about Dragons but nowhere near the amount of pure raw information about anything happening in the vicinity of a Weirwood that Bran does. This knowledge will likely also be more important than just the Dragons as it may lead to the heart of all that is out of balance in the world.

 

What happens when Bran has had enough time to put togther the information in the "Weirwood net"?

It also appears from the text, that even as of his second "trip through the Trees" that he is capable of powerful things, even beyond what is normally thought possible (Bran can communicate beyond just "the wind in the trees").

What he will do with this information will be the crux of his character arc, I believe.

 

I do agree a human POV at or near the Heart of Winter may be necessary from a storytelling perspective, but I can not say that a "mortal shell" will be necessary. In fact human flesh being anywhere near the "Heart of Winter" may be too dangerous in the extreme for anyone who stinks of hot blood and life. It may not be possible. I can not be sure, but if the beings associated with that Cold are already that inimical to life in the autumn at or near the wall, what will the tLoAW be like now that Winter is finally come?

 

Of course if the Other/s were expecting someone it could, I suppose, innoculate him/her to the effects of the Cold making the lands and elements there less of an obstacle. I am uncertain however what their motivations would be for doing so unless they needed a "mortal" agent to enact their plan, or an "envoy" to allow communication with other factions. It certainly doesn't seem like they need or want to have anything to do with humans so there would have to be a reveal that showed them to be much weaker, or of different purpose, than they seem to be in the text thus making necessary the need for a human to act as their agent. If they don't need a mortal a mortal need not travel there.

[Bran the Bringer]

Do we know anything about ned's mother? Hair color, family she's from, northern house or southron?

 

If Stark genes are dominant, then Ned could show the phenotype of a stark while still possessing a recessive gene on the other side. This would enable a match with Ned to result in many more gene combinations as well as explaining why Tully features appear to be dominant over Stark genes. This may not be so, if anyone knows anything about gene recombination and the production of gametes (sperm and eggs) then you know that a gamete only possesses one half of each chromosome. A chromosome that possesses the recessive half of a gene can combine with other recessive genes and the phenotype will show which ever is more dominant of the two. 

 

Point to make here is that the recessive genes from Ned, presumably his mothers since he has the "Stark" look , could combine with recessive genes from Ashara, again here assuming that the Dayne hair coloring is recessive to whoever she gets her dark hair from. This combination of recessive genes will produce a new dominant gene and this could explain how a son of Ned and Ashara would have the Dayne look even if Stark genes are typically dominant over other genotypes. 

 

Not trying to write a paper explaining genetics on here so if you are confused with how this might be possible please google Punnett Square and take five minutes to understand how genetic recombination works and you will understand that not everyone will look just like one parent or another.

 

tl;dr - Ned's recessive genes + Ashara's recessive gene for hair color and her more dominant genes for eye color= A Ned bastard with Targ coloring. 

 

edited for grammar

I am uncertain if GRRM has named her yet in the text, but he has said she was "A Stark" a some point. We don't her full name or how close a relation she was to his father but apparently Neddard got a double dose of Stark genetics. If that means anything I can not say but it may have ensured the "warging/greenseeing" abilities of his kids, or any of his siblings kids, were present and "strong" enough to allow them to warg.

 

As to whether Aegon/fAegon is Ned's bastard It sure doesn't seem as such to me, but I can not conclusively deny it based on the text alone. It does present some problems from a charcter/storytelling perspective and a timelines perspective such as;

- Ned was textually keeping a promise to his sister and the supplanting of that promise by backing another child not of the appropriate inheritance seems to be out of character for the stern, unyielding and naive Ned.

- The Daynes do not have Targ specific genetics according to the text. They may have Valyrian genetics from extreme antiquity but not Targ specific. They have had the pale hair/ "violet" eyes look since the Age of Heroes at least as far back as the Long Night and possibly much older. Where they got that "look" or phenotype from is a matter of much speculation but there was apparently an ancient trading colony at Oldtown that included Valyrians and others that predates the founding of Oldtown by the First Men. If the Daynes were a powerful enough/ forward looking enough family at that time they may have immigrated from or married into Valyrians from that trading post. As far as I know there were no Targs that married into or sired a son upon the Daynes ( I will admit I may have missed something). So the genetics or phenotype must go back futher than 300 years. No " Targ throne" inheritable bloodlines there.

- It seems like the timelines might be too far off for any mistaking of the 2 to happen, but this difference is more obvious in infants and Aegon/fAegon is certainly older than that so it is a weak refutation I agree.

[A Son of Ice and Fire]

I agree that BR being "the Great Other" the one who may be responsible of the return of Others and Bran replacing him, .especially when he told Bran to "never fear the darkness". And we need to remember that Old Nan warned Bran about the three-eyed crow and said sth about crows lying. Still I'm  not so sure about being evil or the villain of the story IMO it's either the balance and duality of the story that neither one is evil or good, or the villain maybe not "ice" but "fire". 

[slant]

sure, Bran, Bloodraven, CoTF can be aligned with the Others

but just because they are mysterious, and people fear darkness (maybe because of the Others?) does not mean they are evil. I mean, what part of Westeros is good? 

From everything I've read so far, Bran, CoTF, Others may actually be the good guys, coming to eradicate the evil from Westeros.