Theories on Bran and Aegon

[bedknobs and boomsticks]

I've got a couple of theories and an observation that I think are worth mentioning. My copy of DwD is with a friend so i'm struggling to source quotes:

1) I think Bran may turn out to be the Great Other. All along, there's the assumption that the 3-eyed crow is good because, well, because Bran likes him, and if Bran likes him he must be good, because we like Bran. Similarly, we assume that the Old Gods are good because the Starks like them, and if the Starks like them......

The problem here is that we've seen no evidence what-so-ever that the old Gods and the Weirwoods are anything but freaking sinister. We know that the weirwoods are linked to human sacrifice and we know that they look pretty evil. Now before anyone picks me up on how GRRM plays against stereotypes and appearances, I actually think he doesn't. There are many minor characters who look evil, and who are evil. He uses appearance as short-hand a surprising amount.

We now know that the 3-eyed crow is actually a gentleman of seriously dubious reputation, who has a servent who is a wight (warging into him perhaps) and who is gradually being taken over by a tree. We know that Jojen is having some serious troubles in that cave, and that the Children of the Forest aren't exactly friendly. In Mellisandra's chapter, she thinks something about The Great Other being beyond the wall surrounded by darkness. Bran is told something very similar about how he'll some to embrace the darkness in his final chapter.

All series we've known that a big good (well warm at least) vs evil confrontation is coming. We suspect that Dany / Jon / whoever is Azor Ahai, but there's hardly any debate on who the enemy is. Surely Bran is a prime candidate for what would be the ultimate tragic role, duped into becoming the ultimate bad guy due to his desire to be whole again.

Of course, the Old Gods being 'evil' then starts to have knock-on effects with the Starks and their Dire Wolves, which is where it really starts messing with your head.....

2) I'm placing my 2 cents on Aegon being the offspring of Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark. Jojen's story of the tournament at Harrenhal seems so important to me. Pretty much he only character we haven't met from it is Ashara. She also gets mentioned by Barristan a couple of times towards the end of DwD, so somethign is being hinted at.

We've been told that she killed herself after a still birth, but as her body was never found, its pretty suggestive that she's still alive and significant. If she is Lemore, as has been theorised, the question then becomes what is she doing? The answer could be that she's taking care of her conviniently violet eyed son.

And as to the Ned link, we know that she and Ned were interested in each other. Accepting that Jon is who we think he is, Ned has never actually denied fathering a bastard at any point (although I'd assume that he thought 'Aegon' died at birth. Maybe he did, but Jon isn't him. The key argument for me though is this; wouldn't it be cool? I mean seriously, Ned Stark's son being the fake pretender to the throne. Imagine the irony, and there've got to be a few mega twists coming up. :P

I'd be interested to hear what people who are clued up on the time-lines think to this.

3) I've read a few threads suggesting that Mormont and his raven were warged, but there's very little evidence. Its tenuous, but in the prologue to DWD, Varamyr thinks that it would be comforting if his wolves ate his body after his death. About 50 pages later (sorry no book to hand) Jon contemplates how the raven ate Mormonts face after his death. As I said, tenuous, but I noticed it and it does help build a case.

[Renly'sGhost]

I have to agree there's something a tad creepy about the Weirwoods, but I sort of always liked that the Starks found something soothing in them when most of the realm found the Old Gods weird with their no-priests-and-no-songs, only silent prayer. It would be a kick in the gut when the Old Gods turn out to be evil, for sure, but the whole Bran story line is definitely moving in a direction where it could happen. I hope not, though, cause I really like Bran. Still, it's hard to believe that the children of the forest would team up with the Others...

As for Aegon's parentage, I guess it's possible he's Eddard's and Ashara Dayne's, but I find it unlikely - Starks' features would be prominent. Same case as Joffrey and co couldn't have been Robert's for Baratheons' features (like black hair) would have trumped Lannisters' (blonde hair). Though, there is something fishy about Septa Lemore.

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

Mormont's raven has been one of the most intricate things in the books, especially in AFFC and ADWD. I think it's possible that it has some dark connection with the others. We could have a thread with all the raven's lines. They're not few. Good discussion.

[Weak With The Dawn]

I'll definitely agree that Brans character arc seems headed somewhere sinister. Especially if you consider the theory that the CotF are feeding him the mashed up remains of Jojen and possibly Meera. Though Hodor may have some chance at rescuing him from all that. I'd like to see Bran prevail, especially since, aside from Rickon (presumably), he's the only Stark to consistently keep his direwolf around.

[Spinebreaker]

On the subject of Mormont... Early on in his discussions with Jon, he mentions troubling dreams. Dreams about being able to see over the wall, Others, Giants and Mammoths. I reckon there's every chance Mormont's in that Raven right now... Occaisionally able to suppress his overwhelming desire for Corn.

[tearloch]

As for Aegon's parentage, I guess it's possible he's Eddard's and Ashara Dayne's, but I find it unlikely - Starks' features would be prominent. Same case as Joffrey and co couldn't have been Robert's for Baratheons' features (like black hair) would have trumped Lannisters' (blonde hair). Though, there is something fishy about Septa Lemore.

I don't think it has anything to do with the father's features, as much as it is the family genes. Ned's children with Catelyn mostly have Catelyn's features....so it may be that Stark genes are recessive.

Also, when Ned was researching "the seed is strong" link, he found cases of Baratheon women with Lannister men having the Baratheon genes predominantly.

Now the only trick to this whole thing is

R + L = J - who has Stark features, not Targaryan features, which we are all led to believe are quite predominant.

Ned + Ashara = Aegon - who has Targ (or Dayne) features.

Now, maybe Ned's genes are recessive, while Lyanna had stronger genes? Or, maybe the Targ genes are not as dominant was we seem to think, and that the only reason why the Targs are so much alike is the repeated incest....meaning the Targs kept up with the incest practice to keep the Valaryan look (after the Doom eliminated almost all the Valaryans).

Personally, I love the idea of Aegon being Ned's bastard son. R+L=J is very accepted these days. That would make both the Stark and Targ (Dayne) genes recessive (or atleast not predominant) meaning any offspring would be a role of the dice as to who's characteristics they get.

That could be a nice set up for Dany to end up with Jon and Aegon in the end. It would be the union of Ice (Stark) and fire (Targ), complete the "dragon must have 3 heads" mystery. Its fun, and I like it.

[ShadowRaven]

I don't think it has anything to do with the father's features, as much as it is the family genes. Ned's children with Catelyn mostly have Catelyn's features....so it may be that Stark genes are recessive.

Also, when Ned was researching "the seed is strong" link, he found cases of Baratheon women with Lannister men having the Baratheon genes predominantly.

Now the only trick to this whole thing is

R + L = J - who has Stark features, not Targaryan features, which we are all led to believe are quite predominant.

Ned + Ashara = Aegon - who has Targ (or Dayne) features.

Now, maybe Ned's genes are recessive, while Lyanna had stronger genes? Or, maybe the Targ genes are not as dominant was we seem to think, and that the only reason why the Targs are so much alike is the repeated incest....meaning the Targs kept up with the incest practice to keep the Valaryan look (after the Doom eliminated almost all the Valaryans).

Personally, I love the idea of Aegon being Ned's bastard son. R+L=J is very accepted these days. That would make both the Stark and Targ (Dayne) genes recessive (or atleast not predominant) meaning any offspring would be a role of the dice as to who's characteristics they get.

That could be a nice set up for Dany to end up with Jon and Aegon in the end. It would be the union of Ice (Stark) and fire (Targ), complete the "dragon must have 3 heads" mystery. Its fun, and I like it.

Saddly that's not how genes work. Genes aren't dominant based on gender...... And I mean hair/eye/skin colour.

[DurararaFTW]

I don't think it has anything to do with the father's features, as much as it is the family genes. Ned's children with Catelyn mostly have Catelyn's features....so it may be that Stark genes are recessive.

Also, when Ned was researching "the seed is strong" link, he found cases of Baratheon women with Lannister men having the Baratheon genes predominantly.

Now the only trick to this whole thing is

R + L = J - who has Stark features, not Targaryan features, which we are all led to believe are quite predominant.

Wait, what makes you think Tar genes are particularly dominant? They feel the need to marry their cousins to keep their bloodline pure. The Baratheons were originally founded by Aegon the Conquerers bastard brother, they don't have white or purple eyes. Martells have Targ family members, they don't have purple eyes or white hair.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

Nice theory, but what would it serve for Aegon to be Ned & Ashara's bastard? I really see no value in this, it doesn't add to the story or createa dramatic outcome.

He is a bastard, not a heir to anything, has no Targ blood (which most of us feel is requried to be one of the 3 heads), etc.

The Jon & Dany idea bring together ice and fire well enough on their own...

What say you?

[Quint]

I have trouble believing that the CoTF are on the bad side. They fought with the First Men and were nearly kill off and eventually made a peace, and then together they fought off the Others together. Plus Sam found records stating that the CoTF gave the nights watch 100 obsidian weapons every year. So if they were truly controlling the Others then why would they provide humans with the means to defeat them?

There are some very convincing arguments about BloodRaven and the CoTF controlling the Others but I just feel that not all the evidence we have is consistent.

[Lady Cheesevillage]

Nice theory, but what would it serve for Aegon to be Ned & Ashara's bastard? I really see no value in this, it doesn't add to the story or createa dramatic outcome.

He is a bastard, not a heir to anything, has no Targ blood (which most of us feel is requried to be one of the 3 heads), etc.

The Jon & Dany idea bring together ice and fire well enough on their own...

What say you?

The only dramatic outcome I can see is that if we make Lenore Ashara it opens up a possibility that she knows the truth of Jon's parentage based on her relationship with Ned/her brother's friendship with Rhaegar/her status as lady-in-waiting to Elia. The fact that she went off with her child gives us a reason for the cover story of her death (which Ned might not ever have known was untrue).

[bedknobs and boomsticks]

The pay off with Aegon being Ned's son is that...well I've just said it, he's Ned's son, the son of what we all assumed would be the principle character.

As a character he would also be perfectly opposed to Jon Snow. For me its a lot more satisfying than him beig some random unheralded Blackfyre, or worse still a genuine Aegon who's come out of nowhere.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Ashara may have purple eyes, but her hair is dark brown. Lemore's hair is brown as well, we don't know her eye color. Also, I think the Targ look may be either recessive or co-dominant with certain other traits, because the inheritance of that silver hair and purple eyes is all sorts of screwed up and unpredictable.

Ashara: Brown hair, purple eyes

Aegon (is he even a Targ?): blonde, blue eyes

Princess Rhaenys : Specifics unmentioned, but Martin said she had the Martell look, so dark hair, dark eyes.

Baelor Breakspear (also a Dornish mother): black hair, eyes unknown.

Point is, Targ looks make no fucking sense. Maybe we shouldn't try to read too much into this

[Black Crow]

I have trouble believing that the CoTF are on the bad side. They fought with the First Men and were nearly kill off and eventually made a peace, and then together they fought off the Others together. Plus Sam found records stating that the CoTF gave the nights watch 100 obsidian weapons every year. So if they were truly controlling the Others then why would they provide humans with the means to defeat them?

There are some very convincing arguments about BloodRaven and the CoTF controlling the Others but I just feel that not all the evidence we have is consistent.

Have a read of the Wall, the Watch and a heresy thread. Its grown quite long but its looking important

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Also, I really don't think it makes sense for Bran to become the "bad guy". My jury is still out on Bloodraven and the COTF, personally I don't think they're sinister either, just creepy, but Bran is not evil.

When he's coma dreaming and the 3EC shows him what's in the lands of always winter, it scares him badly, and he wakes up knowing why he needs to live. The reason has something to do with what scared him. Also, upon waking from this dream, he finally names his direwolf SUMMER. To me it seems really clear that Bran is supposed to defeat the Others somehow, or the greater threat to the realms of man, whatever that may be. Bran's job is to bring back the summer.

It would also be strange if the 3EC (Bloodraven, now revealed as the old decaying dude hooked up to the tree) lied to Bran the entire time, pretending that he wanted to help Bran save the world when he really works for the Others. It's possible, but from what I know of BR's history, very unlikely. Even if that's the case, BR got Bran to search for him by promising flight and telling him his existence was essential to fight whatever scary thing BR showed him in the dream. Why would Bran let BR con him and just go along with the evil plan.

[Black Crow]

Also, I really don't think it makes sense for Bran to become the "bad guy". My jury is still out on Bloodraven and the COTF, personally I don't think they're sinister either, just creepy, but Bran is not evil.

And nor, I believe are the Others - its just how they're presented by their real opponents, Mel and the Red Lot.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can totally believe that the Children of the Forest aren't completely on the up and up. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call them evil, but I'm not sure that Bran is terribly well informed, for a kid about to spend his life as a tree.

Aegon is not Ned and Ashara's son. I think he's a Blackfyre.

[bedknobs and boomsticks]

Bran certainly isn't evil, but he certainly is remarkably uninformed about what he's getting into, so could easily be duped. Very good point about Summer.

I had thought about whether the Other are evil or just on the opposite side to flaming Jesus. But if it comes down to plumging the entire world into an endless winter of freesing darkness, then I think they need to be popped into the bad-guy pigeon hole.

Its all fun and games at he moment and to be honest I'd rather not have too definate an idea of what will happen because I want GRRM to take me there. Having said that, The Dark Tower series would have been so much better if SK had taken my Concentric Pizzas theory on board. :P

[Zuluhed]

And nor, I believe are the Others - its just how they're presented by their real opponents, Mel and the Red Lot.

Agreed.. whos to say who is evil and who is good.. its all where you are standing. I would say the Andals are the bad guys.. they came over to westeros and did some real damage to the First men and old gods.. Consider the Others as beings of the earth (like Ewya from Avatar). the others were there first. men came and put up a huge wall to stop there seasonal pilgramage south.. i would be mad to..

[Glyn Tarvoke]

These theories are inconsistent with most of the clues we're given in the books. The COTF helped build the wall and cut deals with the first men, we are told.

The idea that the COTF are secretly evil is consistent with today's RW conspiracy theories that environmental regulations and national health care or other social safety net programs are actually the font of all evil and another step in tyranny or sending people to death camps. Of course, this worldview misses a lot of things like why we have rules and what they are for, who promulgated them, and various other facts. For any RW'ers reading this, a lot of them cite Hayek's book The Road to Serfdom. In chapter 5, Hayek endorses the social safety net programs as examples of good government programs but the book is usually held to hold the opposite viewpoint. Rw'ers might try reading the entire book. (And placing it in historical context from when it was written or seeing whether you can actual use its insights for anything).

Anyway, in this fantasy world, IMO its a very strange view to see the COTF as secretly evil. Certainly we have plenty of evidence in the books they've attempted to help the men against the Others. The COTF are interested in protecting themselves, but note that they are trying to aid the realms of men.

I suppose we'll see more of the Others but I'd be rather surprised if they are anything other than the enemy of life and men.

Part of the proof of the evil theory is a guess Jojen Reed was killed and made into wierwood paste. I'm sure Jojen will die but this theory he killed and placed into weirwood paste--not so much. I'd be pretty surprised by that. Doesn't make much sense to me for a lot of reasons.

Mormont's crow is probably being warged by Bloodraven\the three eyed crow. Sometimes it would be just a crow, of course. There's a scene after Jon cuts a deal with the Bank of Bravos where he finds the crow perched on a chair above the contract. To me it seemed a clear clue the crow\someone in it was reading the document. Or the scene where the crow flies to Jon's shoulder at the voting for Lord Commander. I'd say someone was taking a hand.

We'll see.