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Theories on Bran and Aegon


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Thus far the others have only attacked members of the night's watch. If we're theorising that Bran can be unknowingly coerced into doing 'evil' (Obviously, Bran's motives are good ones...) then how abou the entire concept of the watch being similarly unknowingly wrong.

What if the WALL ITSELF is the reason for the weird seasons. The COTF may have made a deal with the first men, and helped build the wall, but they did not have to be honest about it. The wall is magical, and that magic in enhanced by the existance of the watch. What better long-term plan than have a magical building, that unleashes zombies and murderous cold on the very people who are enabling it's magical powers.

Mormont's crow is Warged by Mormont... LOVE that idea, if it's not him, then I will weep, openly.

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I've got a couple of theories and an observation that I think are worth mentioning. My copy of DwD is with a friend so i'm struggling to source quotes:

1) I think Bran may turn out to be the Great Other. All along, there's the assumption that the 3-eyed crow is good because, well, because Bran likes him, and if Bran likes him he must be good, because we like Bran. Similarly, we assume that the Old Gods are good because the Starks like them, and if the Starks like them......

The problem here is that we've seen no evidence what-so-ever that the old Gods and the Weirwoods are anything but freaking sinister. We know that the weirwoods are linked to human sacrifice and we know that they look pretty evil. Now before anyone picks me up on how GRRM plays against stereotypes and appearances, I actually think he doesn't. There are many minor characters who look evil, and who are evil. He uses appearance as short-hand a surprising amount.

We now know that the 3-eyed crow is actually a gentleman of seriously dubious reputation, who has a servent who is a wight (warging into him perhaps) and who is gradually being taken over by a tree. We know that Jojen is having some serious troubles in that cave, and that the Children of the Forest aren't exactly friendly. In Mellisandra's chapter, she thinks something about The Great Other being beyond the wall surrounded by darkness. Bran is told something very similar about how he'll some to embrace the darkness in his final chapter.

All series we've known that a big good (well warm at least) vs evil confrontation is coming. We suspect that Dany / Jon / whoever is Azor Ahai, but there's hardly any debate on who the enemy is. Surely Bran is a prime candidate for what would be the ultimate tragic role, duped into becoming the ultimate bad guy due to his desire to be whole again.

Of course, the Old Gods being 'evil' then starts to have knock-on effects with the Starks and their Dire Wolves, which is where it really starts messing with your head.....

2) I'm placing my 2 cents on Aegon being the offspring of Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark. Jojen's story of the tournament at Harrenhal seems so important to me. Pretty much he only character we haven't met from it is Ashara. She also gets mentioned by Barristan a couple of times towards the end of DwD, so somethign is being hinted at.

We've been told that she killed herself after a still birth, but as her body was never found, its pretty suggestive that she's still alive and significant. If she is Lemore, as has been theorised, the question then becomes what is she doing? The answer could be that she's taking care of her conviniently violet eyed son.

And as to the Ned link, we know that she and Ned were interested in each other. Accepting that Jon is who we think he is, Ned has never actually denied fathering a bastard at any point (although I'd assume that he thought 'Aegon' died at birth. Maybe he did, but Jon isn't him. The key argument for me though is this; wouldn't it be cool? I mean seriously, Ned Stark's son being the fake pretender to the throne. Imagine the irony, and there've got to be a few mega twists coming up. :P

I'd be interested to hear what people who are clued up on the time-lines think to this.

3) I've read a few threads suggesting that Mormont and his raven were warged, but there's very little evidence. Its tenuous, but in the prologue to DWD, Varamyr thinks that it would be comforting if his wolves ate his body after his death. About 50 pages later (sorry no book to hand) Jon contemplates how the raven ate Mormonts face after his death. As I said, tenuous, but I noticed it and it does help build a case.

This makes no sense. You might want to read more carefully.

The Great Enemy is a being/creature already in action, not being trained to be in action. We already know the Others are active and fighting mankind. They very obviously dont have a leader in training, but rather a leader in action.

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When I first started reading these forums about bran being evil or on the others side I was like no way. I like bran and dont want it to be true. But when you take that out of it, It got me to thinking.

Lets look at what Grrm has did to his main people so far.

jamie starts out bad turns good

tyrion starts us out thinking he tried to kill bran turns good

theo starts out good then betrays everyone

cat starts out good then turns in to uncat

mel is supost to be evil then we get her pov and she dosnt sound that bad

little finger starts out helping ned then betrays him

I could keep going there are tons of more examples GRRM likes to switch it up on us make us like a person we like or hate them then switch it 180 on us. So I could see him switching bran to the evil side or going somewhere we didnt think he would go.

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Bran certainly isn't evil, but he certainly is remarkably uninformed about what he's getting into, so could easily be duped. Very good point about Summer.

I had thought about whether the Other are evil or just on the opposite side to flaming Jesus. But if it comes down to plumging the entire world into an endless winter of freesing darkness, then I think they need to be popped into the bad-guy pigeon hole.

Its all fun and games at he moment and to be honest I'd rather not have too definate an idea of what will happen because I want GRRM to take me there. Having said that, The Dark Tower series would have been so much better if SK had taken my Concentric Pizzas theory on board. :P

Winter is coming whether the White Walkers are there or not.

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+1 to Shadow Raven and DurararaFTW on the genetics and coloring. Gender doesn't matter. The known Targaryens kept their coloring through inbreeding, which seems to suggest those genes are more recessive. That inbreeding also led to abnormalities/disorders like Bloodraven's albino coloring, Maelys the Monstrous partially absorbing his twin and being born with 2 heads, and probably contributed to Aerys' insanity.

The pay off with Aegon being Ned's son is that...well I've just said it, he's Ned's son, the son of what we all assumed would be the principle character.

As a character he would also be perfectly opposed to Jon Snow. For me its a lot more satisfying than him beig some random unheralded Blackfyre, or worse still a genuine Aegon who's come out of nowhere.

What you're saying has a nice symmetry to it, but I'm still leaning toward Dany as his foil. She's gone from royal birth to persecution, being "sold" to Drogo, and has emerged a Queen. Jon's always been looked down upon for being a bastard, chooses his own "exile" to the Watch, then gives up his claim to Winterfell when Stannis offers it to him.

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I've got a couple of theories and an observation that I think are worth mentioning. My copy of DwD is with a friend so i'm struggling to source quotes:

1) I think Bran may turn out to be the Great Other. All along, there's the assumption that the 3-eyed crow is good because, well, because Bran likes him, and if Bran likes him he must be good, because we like Bran. Similarly, we assume that the Old Gods are good because the Starks like them, and if the Starks like them......

How can he be a being at least 8000 years old

The problem here is that we've seen no evidence what-so-ever that the old Gods and the Weirwoods are anything but freaking sinister. We know that the weirwoods are linked to human sacrifice and we know that they look pretty evil. Now before anyone picks me up on how GRRM plays against stereotypes and appearances, I actually think he doesn't. There are many minor characters who look evil, and who are evil. He uses appearance as short-hand a surprising amount.

We only saw a human sacrifice through weirwood 'eyes' we dont see anything about a religion demanding such sacrifice

We now know that the 3-eyed crow is actually a gentleman of seriously dubious reputation, who has a servent who is a wight (warging into him perhaps) and who is gradually being taken over by a tree. We know that Jojen is having some serious troubles in that cave, and that the Children of the Forest aren't exactly friendly. In Mellisandra's chapter, she thinks something about The Great Other being beyond the wall surrounded by darkness. Bran is told something very similar about how he'll some to embrace the darkness in his final chapter.

Mellisandra has got pretty much everything in her visions wrong so far, so not a good judge of visions. the 3-eyed crow in the D&E stories comes across as quite reasonable the young Egg seems to like him as to embracing the darkness well if your future seems to be living in a cave linked to tree roots embracing the darkness is kinda essential.

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I find it highly unlikely that Bran will become evil. Reading these posts have put a crazy idea in my head. I wonder if Bran being told time and time again that he will fly doesn't mean a raven but maybe warging an ice dragon. In GRRM's The Ice Dragon they only appear in the north in extreme winters. Bran's window toss and journey to find bloodraven happen as winter is drawing close. Maybe in the dream he had Of the Land that's Always Winter scared him so much because for that instant he made contact with it? Crazy idea, i know, but it would be pretty sweet.

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  • 5 months later...

I think the central conflict in ASOIAF is between Bran and Jaime (I've said as much in a thread I posted a while back titled "Jaime & Bran", if anyone cares to check it out). For some reason, people seem convinced that the story is all about Dany and Jon Snow, even though the event that kicks the story into motion is Bran's defenestration. So, in my opinion, the story began with Jaime vs. Bran and will end that way.

As for Aegon, I like the idea that he is Ned Stark's kid, however, I go back and forth between Jon Snow. The fact that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna seems so obvious, it's almost too obvious, as if it's a diversion.

Plus, I wonder how much impact the show has? In the books, Jon is described as having dark brown hair, but on the show it's almost black, and much darker than Ned's hair (which, in the books, is described as the typical Stark color). If Lyanna's hair was similar to Ned's, then Jon should either have brown hair, or crazy Targaryen hair. Yet, his hair is black. Granted, that could be nothing more than a casting decision for the TV show, but something just doesn't add up to me with Rhaegar.

And yes, being a huge fan of Dunk & Egg, I already know about Bittersteel; a Targ bastard who had black hair. Yet, his mother of was House Bracken, which is described as swarthy. The Starks may have brown hair, but they aren't described as swarthy. So, I wonder where Jon Snow gets his looks?

Perhaps I'm over thinking it, but I've never fully subscribed to R+L=J.

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In the mythology of Ragnarok (which I just posted, by the way), Bran is equivalent to the wolf Fenrir, who is a son of Loki (Bloodraven). In Norse mythology, Ice & Fire do not fight each other (i.e. Others vs. Dragons), rather they unite together and wage war upon the Gods.

I think the Others (Sons of Craster = Sons of Muspell) are the Ice Dragons, and Jon Snow (Surtr) will shatter the Wall (Bifrost Bridge) and lead them into the realm of men (Ragnarok).

As for the Others plunging the world into darkness, Bran has stated on several occasions that he feels much more comfortable in the dark (foreshadowing).

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Thus far the others have only attacked members of the night's watch.

The only people they do not attack is Craster and his daughters. Presumably because Craster gives up all his sons in sacrifice. One of the main motivations for the wildling attack on the wall was that the wildlings were trying to flee from the others. Jon's motivation for allowing them through the wall was to deny the others the massive army of undead that they would have after killing the wildlings.

We only saw a human sacrifice through weirwood 'eyes' we dont see anything about a religion demanding such sacrifice

Exactly, we saw someone executed in front of the heart tree. We don't know anything else about it.

As for BR being the great other, then why are all the wights trying to kill Bran, Hodor, and Jojen when they arrive? They're already desperately trying to reach the entrance, they don't need any motivation.

I think the idea is that the Children of the Forrest are a dying race. Leaf tells bran that the giants, the mammoths, the direwolves, an the Children of the Forrest are all dieing, and have no place in the world of men. Bran also discovers that there is a room full of Children of the Forrest sitting in weirwood chairs like BR is, that appear to have been there even longer.

I think BR is the first human to take up the mantle of the Greenseer for the world of men. Since the children of the forrest are dieing out, Men must carry on the tradition . Since the Children of the Forrest are dieing out, it does stand to reason that unless another Greenseer can carry on the tradition the entire history of the Children of the Forrest would be lost, since they have no written language.

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The only people they do not attack is Craster and his daughters. Presumably because Craster gives up all his sons in sacrifice. One of the main motivations for the wildling attack on the wall was that the wildlings were trying to flee from the others. Jon's motivation for allowing them through the wall was to deny the others the massive army of undead that they would have after killing the wildlings.

Exactly, we saw someone executed in front of the heart tree. We don't know anything else about it.

As for BR being the great other, then why are all the wights trying to kill Bran, Hodor, and Jojen when they arrive? They're already desperately trying to reach the entrance, they don't need any motivation.

I think the idea is that the Children of the Forrest are a dying race. Leaf tells bran that the giants, the mammoths, the direwolves, an the Children of the Forrest are all dieing, and have no place in the world of men. Bran also discovers that there is a room full of Children of the Forrest sitting in weirwood chairs like BR is, that appear to have been there even longer.

I think BR is the first human to take up the mantle of the Greenseer for the world of men. Since the children of the forrest are dieing out, Men must carry on the tradition . Since the Children of the Forrest are dieing out, it does stand to reason that unless another Greenseer can carry on the tradition the entire history of the Children of the Forrest would be lost, since they have no written language.

So Bran would be his (Bloodravens) "heir" of the Greenseer? Thats baddass haha

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Wait, what makes you think Tar genes are particularly dominant? They feel the need to marry their cousins to keep their bloodline pure. The Baratheons were originally founded by Aegon the Conquerers bastard brother, they don't have white or purple eyes. Martells have Targ family members, they don't have purple eyes or white hair.

Then again - Velaryons have preserved their valyrian features too

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If anything, I think the story has been building to a battle thats NOT between 'good' and 'evil', one of the main themes to me is that morality is more complicated than that.

I don’t think GRRM is aiming at good vs. bad. Very few people or things are wholly good or bad and he doesn’t write them that way. Especially not his PoVs.

I think Ice & Fire/Others & R’hllor will be revealed as a yin yang thing. So they’re polar opposites or seemingly contrary forces that are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, and they give rise to each other in turn. So the danger in ASoIaF will come if they get out of balance or one overwhelms/destroys the other. So it’s not that one is good and the other evil, but that each is equally dangerous if it becomes dominant.

The natural balance isn’t being threatened by the forces themselves but by people who’ve misunderstood the state of things as a war between these forces rather than a balance. So there isn’t a great other or a fire god, but people who are able to manipulate the magic associated with either Ice or Fire think they’re being granted this power by a “god” and that they’ve been given it to fight against its polar opposite.

So Mel isn’t good or evil, but is potentially dangerous because of what she believes. I think Bran via BR is a great candidate for the dark to Mel’s light. But he wouldn’t be good or evil any more than Mel. But equally dangerous. Bran could become the “great other” Mel’s looking for and the two could clash. But they’d both be buggering up the natural order of things rather than fulfilling a prophecy or a destiny.

For a long time, since Bran started North, I’ve had a gut feeling that Jon will have to destroy Bran. In with my ying yang theory he won’t be doing it because Bran’s turned evil, but because he’s taken a path which means he’s threatening the survival of the whole world.

But that’s just a feeling. Equally it could be Bran who saves the day by bringing back balance and ends the threat of an eternal winter… his direwolf is named Summer after all.

Dany & Jon are strongly linked to Fire & Ice, and many other characters can be as well. Promised Princes & Azor Ahaies are being nominated based on these associations. But I think anybody who chooses either Ice or Fire will be a danger and so I’m looking out for the character who will combine the two. If R+L=J is true then perhaps in will be Jon…but I’m hoping Tyrion will work it out and save the day by bringing Starks & Targs and everybody else to heel.

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