Is Aegon VI fake?

[Silmarien]

I don't think there's any reason why Dorne shouldn't have known about the baby switch.

Arianne called Aegon a pretender.

& we've seen how Gilly acted when her baby was switched. Someone should have noticed Elia's change in behavior.

Responding to your spoiler

pretender just means "claimant to the throne", not a "fake"

[ARYa_Nym]

Responding to your spoiler

pretender just means "claimant to the throne", not a "fake"

It can be both.

She actually thought that it was a trap and that she would be held for ransom. Dorne didn't know anything about him.

[Silmarien]

It can be both.

She actually thought that it was a trap and that she would be held for ransom. Dorne didn't know anything about him.

You're right, but her just using the word doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

[ARYa_Nym]

You're right, but her just using the word doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

If we combine it with the other info we have from the chapter we can surmise that so far Dorne is skeptical that he is who he says he is. Pretender in this sense would have a double-meaning.

& I think when it's all said in done he might go down in history as Aegon the Pretender after Dany exposes him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The matter is ex-Hand Griff is pretty darn certain that "young Griff" is indeed Aegon Targaryen. Griff is a POV character and therefore can not lie.

Of course, as ex-Hand Griff was exiled prior to the Trident and consequential murder of Aegon, there are plenty of rooms of opportunities for Varys/Illyios to do switch and bait.

Oh I don't doubt that Connington thinks he's real, because he wants to believe it. "Aegon" was already a few years old before Connington ever saw him; he had nothing to do with the alleged baby switch. But he's taking Varys' word for it. So there's no reason why Connington can't be truthful in saying he thinks Aegon is real, even if Aegon isn't.

People have long suspected that Aegon/"Aegon" would pop up eventually, given that Martin only confirmed that Rhaenys was definitely killed. As soon as his plot cropped up, all I thought of was Perkin Warbeck.

[Raksha the Demon]

I personally think that...

1. Young Griff will eventually be revealed as a non-Targaryen, the son of Illyrio and Serra, but he won't know. He might still survive, either on the Iron Throne or as Prince of Dragonstone. Or Connington, who does find out the truth, might kill him in a fit of rage and then regret it.

2. Young Griff will be killed or blinded or something else unpleasant; after which it will be revealed that he truly was Prince Aegon.

Though part of me kind of hopes that l'il Griff ends up on the Iron Throne for keeps, marries Sansa, they become King and Queen of the South; while Daenerys either vegetates in Essos or dies valiantly fighting Others. But I doubt that GRRM will be that kind to the kid.

[Silmarien]

If we combine it with the other info we have from the chapter we can surmise that so far Dorne is skeptical that he is who he says he is. Pretender in this sense would have a double-meaning.

& I think when it's all said in done he might go down in history as Aegon the Pretender after Dany exposes him.

I hope so! I'm happy to hear of this development in the next book.

[Tini]

How? Dany is in no better position to expose him as a fake than the rest of the population in Westeros. There is no proof one way or the other.

[ARYa_Nym]

We'll just have to wait to read how she does it. RN, it's a mystery just like how is Jon going to be resurrected or how are the Others going to get past the Wall.

The dragons won't be something to go by because they'll kill you if you have dragonblood or not.

Since GRRM has hinted at a second Dance of the Dragons I can't decide if he'll die or not. I don't think he'll get fed to Drogon like Rhaenyra did but I can see Connington killing him. If he wants to get back at Varys and Illyrio for betraying him he might see killing Aegon as a way to do it or maybe his thought process won't be that rational.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We'll just have to wait to read how she does it. RN, it's a mystery just like how is Jon going to be resurrected or how are the Others going to get past the Wall.

The dragons won't be something to go by because they'll kill you if you have dragonblood or not.

Since GRRM has hinted at a second Dance of the Dragons I can't decide if he'll die or not. I don't think he'll get fed to Drogon like Rhaenyra did but I can see Connington killing him. If he wants to get back at Varys and Illyrio for betraying him he might see killing Aegon as a way to do it or maybe his thought process won't be that rational.

It never occurred to me that Connington might be the one to kill Young Griff out of spite, but it makes a lot of sense.

How? Dany is in no better position to expose him as a fake than the rest of the population in Westeros. There is no proof one way or the other.

As for the "proof" of Aegon's fraud or legitimacy, all I can say is that if either of those matter, Martin has probably thought of some way to prove it. Same thing with Jon's parentage. "How will people know?" If it's meant to be important, it's meant to have a means of proof. Just because it isn't obvious to us now doesn't mean it isn't or won't be there eventually. It occurred to me that, for example, Bloodraven wargs Balerion, who would have been a kitten and alive at the time of the Sack. Might he possibly be able to corroborate the switch, or lack thereof?

[The Bloody Boar]

Well, I think he is fake because I don't think anybody could have foreseen that Tywin was going to kill Rhaegar's toddler children (Rhaenys was 3, Aegon <2). Even if they had, the logistics of a "baby swap" are a nightmare - all the servants would have had to be dismissed or trustworthy (most people will eventually talk, especially to to curry favor with a new king). And, Elia would have had to go along with the plan. How would Varys convince her to do this?

You're kidding? When rebels are coming to take the throne, them killing all your kin is the most predictable thing out there, and swapping a baby is easy to do, and convincing a mother you need to save her baby when it's in danger is easy!

I can only think of 2 reasons why people think Aegon is a fake, given that he looks like a Targ and silver hair and purple eyes aren't exactly common features. And also given that he's with Jon Connington, who is beyond a doubt real and a friend and contemporary of Aegon's father. Anyway, the 2 reasons are:

1. The mummer's dragon reference from the lady from Qaithe.

2. People can't believe someone that important would be introduced so late into the game.

2. is only an emotional reaction. 1. is subject to interpretation: Aegon might not be a genuine Targ, or he might be a bastard scion of the house, or he just might turn out to be another weak link like Viserys (not a psycho, I mean, just not a shaker and a mover).

[The Bloody Boar]

You're right, but her just using the word doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

Pretender pretty clearly means a fake. Ever heard of the Old Pretender and the Young Pretender in English history? It's not a label you give to someone who's claim you think is valid.

[The Bloody Boar]

Well besides the reasons Silmarien laid out, there is the additional repeating by GRRM of the history of the Blackfyre rebellions, and the fact that Illyrio's lover was a woman named Serra who had the Targ features of purple eyes and silver blond hair.

So the odds that 'Young Griff' is in fact the last scion of the Blackfyre rebels disguised as a Targaryen go way up in my book.

Ooh. Would this explain Illyrio's mysterious motivation? Why he cares about who sits the Iron Throne?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You're kidding? When rebels are coming to take the throne, them killing all your kin is the most predictable thing out there, and swapping a baby is easy to do, and convincing a mother you need to save her baby when it's in danger is easy!

I can only think of 2 reasons why people think Aegon is a fake, given that he looks like a Targ and silver hair and purple eyes aren't exactly common features. And also given that he's with Jon Connington, who is beyond a doubt real and a friend and contemporary of Aegon's father. Anyway, the 2 reasons are:

1. The mummer's dragon reference from the lady from Qaithe.

2. People can't believe someone that important would be introduced so late into the game.

2. is only an emotional reaction. 1. is subject to interpretation: Aegon might not be a genuine Targ, or he might be a bastard scion of the house, or he just might turn out to be another weak link like Viserys (not a psycho, I mean, just not a shaker and a mover).

1. I think the argument is, Varys (who told Aerys not to open the gates) had no proper way of knowing if or when the city would actually fall and as such, it would've been hard to pinpoint exactly when the baby switch would've been necessary. As others have mentioned, Aegon would have had so many different people around him at all times that it seems impossible for a switch to occur with no one noticing or tattling. A lot of Aerys' servants might have spilled the beans on a baby switch to save their own skins, yet no one did, not even lying about it.

2. Him looking like a Targ doesn't mean much in that part of the world, given the Blackfyre possibility. Just saying "he looks like a Targ so he must be a Targ" isn't enough.

3. Personally I think the mummer's dragon has multiple meanings: He's Varys' dragon who's also fake. I will play the devil's advocate though, and say that one doesn't necessarily have to mean the other. Quaithe's prophecy could be construed as Aegon being fake, but if you take "mummer's dragon" to merely be possessive, that doesn't have to be the case.

4. I think that, narratively, the "too late to introduce him if he's that important" argument has at least some merit. Ideally readers should have some kind of emotional or personal investment in characters, and with Aegon, there isn't any, really.

5. I'll counter and say that the only evidence that Aegon is real is because a group of guys — one who's known to be a professional liar with a possible dynastic interest, another with a vested emotional interest and another with a possible financial and dynastic interest — say he is. Beyond that, what evidence is there, really?

Ooh. Would this explain Illyrio's mysterious motivation? Why he cares about who sits the Iron Throne?

Yes. ;)

[Lord of the Night]

Well, I think he is fake because I don't think anybody could have foreseen that Tywin was going to kill Rhaegar's toddler children (Rhaenys was 3, Aegon <2). Even if they had, the logistics of a "baby swap" are a nightmare - all the servants would have had to be dismissed or trustworthy (most people will eventually talk, especially to to curry favor with a new king). And, Elia would have had to go along with the plan. How would Varys convince her to do this?

Why did Elia "fight like a tigress" against Ser Gregor to save....a peasant child switched with Aegon, not even her own son?

Why the hell do Varys and Illyrio care that much about a dynasty that they are not connected to (Targaryens)? Why did Varys feed into Aerys' madness if he wanted to protect the Targaryens?

Also, YG was introduced in book 5 out of 7, and we expect that somebody we've known from Book 1 will be playing a major part in the ending of the novels and in who gets the Iron Throne (after the Others are defeated, or sorted out).

ETA: Also, I think partially it is based on the fact that Tyrion guesses YG's age to be "around 15", while Aegon son of Rhaegar should be closer to 18 (and you can usually tell the difference between those two ages, but not always, of course).

No but there was the case of Robert who might very well have killed Rhaegar's children himself if he had too. Rhaegar was dead and they needed some way to keep the Targaryen dynasty alive, and to keep Viserys off the throne, so they switched the baby. And it does mention that very few people had actually seen Aegon as a babe and those few people who had, the Kingsguard, Aerys, Rhaella, were all trustworthy to keep the secret, though I doubt Aerys was told. And even then at a certain age babies do look a lot alike, so somebody who has never seen the child can't exactly say whether or not it is in fact Aegon. Gregor Clegane wouldn't have bothered to check for purple eyes and silver-blonde hair, he just ripped the kid away from Elia's grasp and smashed him. His eyes would have been pulped by the blow and he likely had no hair at all. So how else could he have been identified. DNA Testing doesn't exist in Westeros, if it did that would solve a hell of a lot of problems.

Elia would have gone along with it easily, mother's instinct to protect her child. What is the worst that could happen. She holds onto a peasant child for a few months until Robert is killed and the rebellion ends, while Aegon is safe with Jon Connington across the Narrow Sea. Rebellion ends and he brings the kid home safe and sound. But if the rebellion doesn't end Aegon will be killed to make sure that Robert can claim the throne, if not by Robert himself then by somebody. Robert would not have had Elia killed but Gregor Clegane didn't care. And if she didn't fight to protect the child even Clegane might have noticed something was wrong, what mother wouldn't fight to defend her child from him. He would have told Tywin Lannister as much and Tywin would have immediately figured it out. He might still have presented the fake baby but he would have been alert and searched to find the boy, and have assassins deal with him quietly.

Illyrio cares because Varys cares likely enough, they are good friends. Varys cares because he knew Rhaegar would serve the realm best, he likely didn't give a damn about Aerys but he wanted Rhaegar on the throne. With Rhaegar dead Aegon is the best choice, and as Varys says Aegon knows that ruling is not a right, its a duty. Thus he is the very best choice in all of Westeros for a king. Likely Varys never thought a rebellion on the scale of Robert's would have been possible, Aerys was like to die young and Rhaegar would have healed all the wounds of the realm. He probably thought most would be content to wait until Rhaegar took power.

Just because a character arrives late doesn't mean he can't play a big part. And considering how big TWoW And ADoS will be, I think Aegon will get to play a big role in coming events.

Guessing somebodies age like that isn't a reliable method. Aegon is likely young looking for his age, there are eighteen year olds who can pass for fifteen or sixteen due to their boyish appearance. Tyrion is likely judging on those features and guessing.

LotN

[Jamie Lannister]

I doubt it. Varys isn't an idiot; and when he was talking to Kevan, he was addressing a dead man. What did he have to gain by lying about Aegon's authenticity in front of him?

[corbon]

I've been going through some topics here on the forum and I noticed a lot of people seem to think Young Griff is an imposter. I've read ADWD and maybe I missed something about this. Can anyone please tell me why people think he is fake. Is there some evidence of this somewhere or at least hinted at it in the books? I personally hope he is real and kicks some ass in TWoW.

This is also my first post here so apologies in advance for crappy wordscrafting.

Most of the reasons given so far are rubbish. That is to say, they might be a reason why he could be fake, but they are far too weak to 'demand' he cannot be real. Baby swaps certainly are doable, and not all that difficult when one has 'command' of the secret tunnels and passageways that riddle the Red Keep. Given Aerys' state of paranoia and increasing madness Varys may have been preparing to save Rhaegar's heir regardless of the Lannisters.

And one thing Varys has been consistent about, is his goal is 'for the good of the realm' - controlling the upbringing and education of a future ruler does that, and the Targaryens, have two sides to their coin - brilliance as well as madness.

And the one time a holder of secrets can afford to tell the truth is to dead men.

The 'mummer's dragon of Quaithe's warning is also not, in itself, a point to Aegon being fake. It could equally be the dragon of a mummer (Varys) as a fake dragon.

The strong piece of evidence that points to Aegon being fake is Dany's triple 'slayer of lies' prophecy. The third lie is a paper dragon on poles being cheered by a crowd. (Dany (not the prophecy) calls it a mummer's dragon, which leads people to connect it to Quaithe's warning, but it is a different and independent source which may be referring to the same prophetic unit.)

The thought is that Aegon is the paper (fake) Dragon and the common people will welcome his return (thus the cheering crowds) but Dany will slay that lie.

But even that is merely theory. The paper dragon may represent someone (or thing) else, or the lie could be something other than the dragon being fake.

[Lummel]

It's still up for debate, but the idea that Aegon could be real doesn't sit so well with what we know about how Varys and Illyrio didn't interact with Viserys and Dany. On the other hand their behaviour makes sense if we assume that Aegon is a Blackfyre heir and V&I are working towards a Blackfyre restoration.

It's not impossible to smuggle out a baby from Kings Landing to an unknown place but people would know, quite a few people (a wetnurse, servants, guards, the crew of a ship). If the child was Aegon son of rhaegar why bring him up separately from Viserys and Dany (and why if it's safer to keep the heirs part are Dany and Viserys left together) why take him to an unknown place rather than to the strong fortress of Dragonstone or to his relatives in Dorne? Why not establish a court in exile? It's all odd. Secrecy is only required if there is something to hide, the mere fact of being a surviving targaryen isn't enough - it's well known that Viserys and Dany live after all.

However if Aegon is a Blackfyre then it makes sense to keep him apart from other Targaryens where questions would be asked about his identity and it makes sense to neglect Dany and Viserys and it makes sense to marry Dany to the Dothraki rather than to some powerful person in the free cities who wouldn't be considered a barbarian by the Westerosi and it would explain why Doran Targaryen revenge plan didn't involve Aegon or the Golden Company.

[Antonius Pius]

1. I think the argument is, Varys (who told Aerys not to open the gates) had no proper way of knowing if or when the city would actually fall and as such, it would've been hard to pinpoint exactly when the baby switch would've been necessary. As others have mentioned, Aegon would have had so many different people around him at all times that it seems impossible for a switch to occur with no one noticing or tattling. A lot of Aerys' servants might have spilled the beans on a baby switch to save their own skins, yet no one did, not even lying about it.

But if no-one comes looking for beans, why spill them? There was no reason for Tywin and Robert to go looking for irregularities. Elia was killed together with baby Aegon, why would the winners (eager to end the civil war now that they've won) suspect there might be something wrong? There's just no reason to assume they would be edgy.

Also, as reasons why a switch may have been prepared for: it's well known that Robert hated Targaryens with a passion. He had a hatred for Rhaegar that apparently preceded the Tourney of Harrenhal. And Varys know more then he needed to know of Tywin's way of reacting to slights. So there was ample reason to at least be fearful for baby Aegon's life. Elia could have fought to save the life of any doomed baby. It was "luck" that Gregor behaved like the brute he was and destroyed the head of the baby, making it impossible to tell anything by what the baby looked like. Also, Varys mentions that the switch was prepared for by going to look for a baby that could be passed of as Aegon. I forget the exact details in ADWD, but I think it says something like he bartered with a commoner to trade babies. I'm not sure but I think this is from his confession to Kevan, so why would he lie?

As a further point in favour, how hard would it really be to switch babies? Who could tell the difference? His mother, some ladies looking after him, and that's. Babies freshly born look remarkably unlike to uninterested bystanders. Guards wouldn't have noticed. Likely they weren't given the chance, because Varys could pull a swith through the tunnels. We have no record of him during the Sack after his arguing against opening the gates to Tywin.

It's still up for debate, but the idea that Aegon could be real doesn't sit so well with what we know about how Varys and Illyrio didn't interact with Viserys and Dany. On the other hand their behaviour makes sense if we assume that Aegon is a Blackfyre heir and V&I are working towards a Blackfyre restoration.

It's not impossible to smuggle out a baby from Kings Landing to an unknown place but people would know, quite a few people (a wetnurse, servants, guards, the crew of a ship). If the child was Aegon son of rhaegar why bring him up separately from Viserys and Dany (and why if it's safer to keep the heirs part are Dany and Viserys left together) why take him to an unknown place rather than to the strong fortress of Dragonstone or to his relatives in Dorne? Why not establish a court in exile? It's all odd. Secrecy is only required if there is something to hide, the mere fact of being a surviving targaryen isn't enough - it's well known that Viserys and Dany live after all.

Because if Aegon is real, he's the heir to the throne. Whatever happens with Dany and Viserys, his claim still supersedes theirs. And if they can keep "The Usurpers hired daggers" hunting after D&V, Aegon is safe. All the while that D&V are trying to stay alive, Aegon is being prepared for his task, Blackfyre or no.

[Symmy1234]

Ok if aegon is indeed a fake then why when varys murders ser kevan did he talk about aegon as a true king etc, he would have no reason to lie knowing that kevan would die.