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Devouring their children: Portrayal of mothers in ASOIAF


Queen Cersei I

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1. The reason I brought up my opinion that they are not being punished is because I didn't think your explanation for how they were "punished" held much water, as if this was an intent on the part of the author to say something nasty about women and mothers, rather than an observation of what actually happens very often in societies with strict gender roles (I know from personal experience growing up in a culture more restrictive of women). I think there are other instances where you can accuse GRRM of being unfair to women and I would agree with you, like the general treatment and writing of Cersei.

Cat, Lysa and Catelyn are all similarly presented IMO as being overly concerned, almost to hysterical levels with the fates of their children, in particular with their first born sons. We see an early sign of this in Cat's case with Bran, after he has his fall and she refuses to leave his side to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. My contention is that these women are shown to be "devouring their children" (supporting the case presented in the OP) in one way or another. Lysa Tully perhaps is the clearest example of this: Robert's breastfeeding seems to be more about feeding her, than it is him: feeding her loneliness, her fears, her need to feel safe and protected. With regards to the punishment each of these women receives - it has to do with the madness each one arguably descends into. In fact, there is a troubling connection throughout the series between motherhood and madness. As I said in the earlier post, I consider Lady Stoneheart to be a punishment for Cat herself, and Cersei's walk of shame, along with Lysa's out of control behaviour that leads to her being pushed through a moondoor.

2. Regarding Lysa, we actually have no freaking idea how Jon Arryn parented, all we see is Lysa. What we do know, is that Arryn wanted to foster Robert somewhere else, and to tell you the truth, I think that would have been one of the best things for him, provided that house had a maester who could deal with his health issues. Lysa breastfeeds him still, she has coddled him into a spineless, characterless coward, an heir with no understanding of how to behave among people of his class, with no ability to make sound decisions, even as a kid. Lysa's behavior wasn't overcompensation of anything Arryn did or suggested, as implied by the fact that she was breastfeeding her walking, talking child before she took him away in order to prevent him being fostered.

There is simply not enough evidence for either side to prove its case, but I still believe that Jon Arryn was not very attentive to Sweetrobin. I'm not suggesting that he was deliberately negligent, as he did try to have the boy fostered out, but Jon was not only a very old man, he was also caught up in very important business as Hand. Finding out about Cersei's incest, and trying to keep a hand on a kingdom in debt would have taxed anyone. Still, Lysa's overcompensating - whether we attribute it to her disconnect from Jon Arryn or her own insecurities, seems clear to me.

3.Cat was actually a pretty good mother imo. But no, she wasn't overcompensating because of Ned's affection for Jon. I don't think anyone can convince themselves there was a real threat Ned might actually put Rob aside for Jon. Her feelings toward Jon are the worst part of her personality. She is paranoid because she refuses to see him or get to know him as a person. If she did she might actually find out he's a sweet kid who loves his siblings and would never steal their birthright. Any overcompensation on Cat's part is not because of Ned, it's because of her own paranoia and distrust.

You'll get no argument from me here. I do think it was because of Cat's own paranoia and jealousy, but this still doesn't negate the fact that her fears were very real to her. As for her overcompensating, it's my own personal belief for at least part of the reason why she refuses to leave Robb during the war, but it's a pet theory that I'm fine if no one else subscribes too :) I don't think Ned can be completely let off the hook though. There is an argument to be made that his refusal to tell Cat anything about Jon's parentage only fuelled her paranoia and animosity towards Jon.

Once again, it's called realism, and gender roles and how those roles affect how women in those roles relate to people around them is the crux of this argument imo. I think in this case, Martin is being very feminist in pointing out what happens with ambitious and energetic personalities when they're pinned into this role as wife and mother only. It not only adversely affects the women, it affects their children, and society in general.

I'm not really attacking Martin as I'm trying to think through how he portrays motherhood in the text. I think there a definite pattern in the relationships these three women have with their children that needs highlighting and at least debating.

I have a genuine question for you. If you still see this honest portrayal as "punishment" for these women, then how would you have portrayed them? Is the ideal portrayal one where women fitted into restrictive roles always manage to do the jobs given to them perfectly, demonstrating that even when you oppress them, they're awesome? That's not the truth, and that doesn't further any good cause.

As I've said, I'm concerned with the motherhood = madness equation that has been presented with regards to these three mothers. As the three most prominent mothers in the text, their portrayal is deceptively similar and disturbing in its final outcome. Both Cersei and Lysa are shown to be inherently unstable/mad, and morally corrupt/evil. Cat may not be either of these things in life, but even she doesn't escape them in death. There's been lots of debate on the board about whether Lady Stoneheart is truly evil or mad, and whilst I don't think she embodies either quality distinctly, her essential depiction is still that of an avenging monster, filled with hate and a singleminded quest for revenge.

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Cat, Lysa and Catelyn are all similarly presented IMO as being overly concerned, almost to hysterical levels with the fates of their children, in particular with their first born sons. We see an early sign of this in Cat's case with Bran, after he has his fall and she refuses to leave his side to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. My contention is that these women are shown to be "devouring their children" (supporting the case presented in the OP) in one way or another. Lysa Tully perhaps is the clearest example of this: Robert's breastfeeding seems to be more about feeding her, than it is him: feeding her loneliness, her fears, her need to feel safe and protected. With regards to the punishment each of these women receives - it has to do with the madness each one arguably descends into. In fact, there is a troubling connection throughout the series between motherhood and madness. As I said in the earlier post, I consider Lady Stoneheart to be a punishment for Cat herself, and Cersei's walk of shame, along with Lysa's out of control behaviour that leads to her being pushed through a moondoor.

There is an argument to be made that his refusal to tell Cat anything about Jon's parentage only fuelled her paranoia and animosity towards Jon.

Thanks for clarifying on the devouring children thing. Those are some really interesting parallels between the mother characters and I'm going to have to mull that over for a bit before I decide what it might mean. Completely agree that Ned probably caused a lot of unnecessary problems by keeping Cat out of the loop about Jon. It was her business to know the truth, even if Ned thought the secrecy would protect her. I do understand the difficultly of making a decision that could have endangered Jon as well though.

What has Cat done that she must punished beyond death? Be a ***** to Jon? So the **** what, most characters hav done worse, nearly all of them are allowed to rest in death.

I didn't think anyone had said Cat deserved to be punished. We're debating whether her fate is intended as punishment.

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Agree, of course I meant the personal private history of the author

I would argue that GRRM is not trying to tell us anything about mothers. He's telling us about this medieval fantasy world and how the people live there, including how mothers function, or do not. He's created a particularly vivid world. Look at all the interest, the fans, the number of posts. Stasis is inherently uninteresting. Health and function and rational behavior... again, uninteresting, so GRRM shows us a world of people unhealthily consumed by ...whatever their passion is. Love is distorted. Faith is distorted. Honor is distorted. When the dysfunction mirrors our own experience of life and our emotions, it's compelling.

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While I agree with this I can also think of a lot of strong women as well such as Brienne, who may not be mothers but are very strong good people.

Yeah but Brienne, Asha, Arya... well they take on male roles don't they.

They are not scary mysterious and all devouring feminine, but rather men without the physical strength.

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Both Cersei and Lysa are shown to be inherently unstable/mad, and morally corrupt/evil. Cat may not be either of these things in life, but even she doesn't escape them in death. There's been lots of debate on the board about whether Lady Stoneheart is truly evil or mad, and whilst I don't think she embodies either quality distinctly, her essential depiction is still that of an avenging monster, filled with hate and a singleminded quest for revenge.

Hmmmn. Well, in general I like UnCat. IMO, she is not being punished, she IS punishment. Vengeful spirits are a regular feature in fantasy, and she and her family certainly deserve vengance, so I don't think her current state is a comment on motherhood. The people who inflicted injury on the Starks and Tullys were no more reasonable than UnCat is now. UnCat is also 10 times more effective in her undead state than she was alive, perhaps because because she is so singleminded. So I actually think that being UnCat is a reward because it allows Cat, and therefore the Starks and the Tullys, to get the satisfaction they couldn't get in life.

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Yeah but Brienne, Asha, Arya... well they take on male roles don't they.

They are not scary mysterious and all devouring feminine, but rather men without the physical strength.

'Male' roles? Am I a man suddenly? Does having a certain personality type change my gender? What exactly do you mean by this?

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'Male' roles? Am I a man suddenly? Does having a certain personality type change my gender? What exactly do you mean by this?

Alright, a woman competing in a male arena: fighting soldiering etc, is always going to lose because quite frankly we lack the upper body strength (sob genetics), so she still retains the weakness and vulnerability of being a woman, whilst losing what is scary about women (sexuality, beauty and femininity that enables women to control men).

where as women like Cersei and potentially Sansa, are potentially much more dangerous because they are not competing in a race they cannot win, but rather using completely different weapons that men are vulnerable to...

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I don't think that a woman using her femininity to control men means that she will win. There will always be someone younger and prettier than you. In Hollywood, the other woman is usually less attractive save for Angelina Jolie. It's not about looks. It's about how the woman makes him feel.

Cersei couldn't keep Robert under her control and now she can't even keep Jaime. & the worst thing about traditional femininity is that looks fade and after a certain age a woman can't bear children. In an age like Westeros she could easily be seen as useless.

Asha can hold her own in battle and Brienne has taken down a few people despite not being as strong as a male.

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True, but Theon was his heir regardless, and his dismissive attitude is therefore strikingly strange, even if we can understand it.

I think that's a good point. Especially if we consider how fucked up the relationships between Balon, Victarion and Euron and Aeron are.

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Alright, a woman competing in a male arena: fighting soldiering etc, is always going to lose because quite frankly we lack the upper body strength (sob genetics), so she still retains the weakness and vulnerability of being a woman, whilst losing what is scary about women (sexuality, beauty and femininity that enables women to control men).

where as women like Cersei and potentially Sansa, are potentially much more dangerous because they are not competing in a race they cannot win, but rather using completely different weapons that men are vulnerable to...

I can benchpress two hundred pounds and have been able to bench 150 since the age of fifteen. I am still female I assure you. We are rare but we do exist. Arya_Nm has illustrated my views on physical attraction quite nicely.

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Hmn but that monastic idea that to be a good Septon, Maester, member of the Nightswatch or Kingsguard is symptomatic of a theme that others have pointed out: that love, the love of Rhaegar for Lyanna, the love Robert Baratheon for Lyanna, the love of Lysa for Littlefinger and Sweet Robin, the love Littlefinger for Catelyn, the love of Cersei for Jaime, the Catelyn's love for her children... causes terrible things to happen.

If these people had not loved but simply done their duty, then would any of the misery in Westeros have happened?

I think that the answer is not "do not love" but "love and still to your duty". Jon loves Robb, he loves Ygritte, but still he keeps his vows, and that is what makes him a good man.

The trouble with passion in the series is not the passions themselves, but the fact that the people who have them see that as an ultimate excuse. That goes for love, ambition, hate - whatever, it is always one big "I wanna!!!" as opposed to "i must".

This has nothing to do with the argument that Queen Cersei is presenting in the thread.These women are all portrayed as having a negative impact on their children, whilst the fathers largely escape censure. It's not as simple as saying child rearing is women's work in Westeros. It's still considered mostly women's work in our world today as well, but these women standout by their almost hysterical bonds with their children (first born sons in particular).

Fisrt of all, what do you mean by "fathers escape censure"? In what way? Bad fathers are not shown as bad? That is not true. Bad fathers are not shown from inside? That is closer to the mark, the only father-POV is Ned, and he is a good one. (I don't count Jaime, because he is not a father, he is just a sperm-donor).

Second of all, having children is not considered "women's work" in Westeros. It is considered the reason of a woman's existence. (That and giving sexual pleasure, of course, but to lesser extent). Look at the way Catelyn views other women. The first thing she looks at is the width of the hips. She sees the ability to have healthy children as the single most important thing in herself and in any other woman. That is miles away from the dispute about "who takes children to the playground".

I think GRRM's portrayal of women in general in this series is harsh, not just mothers.

I think GRRM portrayal of people in general is not to gentle.

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Alright, a woman competing in a male arena: fighting soldiering etc, is always going to lose because quite frankly we lack the upper body strength (sob genetics), so she still retains the weakness and vulnerability of being a woman, whilst losing what is scary about women (sexuality, beauty and femininity that enables women to control men).

where as women like Cersei and potentially Sansa, are potentially much more dangerous because they are not competing in a race they cannot win, but rather using completely different weapons that men are vulnerable to...

So, the right and proper role of every woman...is as a seductress. Right. I'm sure Brienne could make that work great for her if she just chose to try.

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I can benchpress two hundred pounds and have been able to bench 150 since the age of fifteen. I am still female I assure you. We are rare but we do exist. Arya_Nm has illustrated my views on physical attraction quite nicely.

You are not the only member of the female race particapating jounsting tournaments and such. To say Brienne is taking a generaly male role is not overstating things.

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I don`t see Arya, Asha and Brienne barging into men`s world and failing there due to lack of upper body strength. I think they use well/wisely what the gods have given to them. Your survival/success depends on how well you recognize and use your strengths, not how precisely you follow the recommended stereotype.

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So, the right and proper role of every woman...is as a seductress. Right. I'm sure Brienne could make that work great for her if she just chose to try.

Why pursue on foot the cheetah when you can shoot the cheetah with a sniper rifle from a safe distance?

Brienne still needed rescuing, from Rorge, and Brienne's lack of physical attractiveness is one of her great misfortunes, there is no denying that.

But even a magnificently tall woman like Brienne, is not as strong as a man of equal height.

and Asha's ability to fight against a whole bunch of soldiers is no way realistic.

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Why pursue on foot the cheetah when you can shoot the cheetah with a sniper rifle from a safe distance?

Brienne still needed rescuing, from Rorge, and Brienne's lack of physical attractiveness is one of her great misfortunes, there is no denying that.

But even a magnificently tall woman like Brienne, is not as strong as a man of equal height.

and Asha's ability to fight against a whole bunch of soldiers is no way realistic.

I agree that Asha's ability to fight may not be realistic, but either are fire-breathing flying dragons; I can live with her being able to hold her own as a fighter. Asha has not always been victorious and is currently a war-prize. I think Brienne could out-fight a man her own height, if that man has minimal fighting ability. Brienne could defeat Littlefinger even if he was taller, in a contest of arms. I do think that the average man could, with arms training, overpower the average arms-trained woman; but there are exceptions to the rule, and they would include strong, tall and agile women with great reflexes and training.

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