Jump to content

Boarders Writing a Novel, Take 6


Starkess

Recommended Posts

Congrats den!

Anyone have suggestions for curing writer's block? Haha.

Listen to some music. It sometimes works for me. Sometimes. :P

Got some writing done in the past few days. Not much, but it's a nice development after so much erm... nondevelopment. Today, I finally realized that I have to start writing down the history of my world. It's been in my head primarily, but that's not the best place to keep facts and dates and names straight, so I just had to buckle down and do it. I started work on a timeline and I've discovered how much information I have for dates nearer to the story and how ancient history is looking incredibly empty. It's taking quite a bit of time (hah!) to get it all put down, but it actually feels like I'm not accomplishing much of anything even though it's probably a really good idea that I do this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone have suggestions for curing writer's block? Haha.

Threaten to go on a camping trip to Cader Idris. Always works for me.

Dackad, ancient history generally is pretty "empty", as in not well understood, compared to modern. Unless you just want to be certain in your own mind what happened, you can handwave gaps away pretty easily. Look at the RL reaction to ancient times outwith the Judeo-Christian trait of tracking all history via the Bible: past ages of demideity heroes and gods-on-earth turn up all over the place, from the Americas to Australia via Europe and Asia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, don't fall to far into the history trap. It has relevance, for sure, but keep in mind the most important dates and make up others as you go. You can always retcon on a redraft if you have to, but most likely there is only so much history that you are going to mention in one book in any case. Especially ancient history.

I spent a great deal of time on the ancient history of my world. Then i realized that my massive series - book one would have been 800 pages - was probably too big to find a publisher right away. So i wrote a new book set in the same world. Slim and trim, and very little ancient history has been mentioned. The really nice thing is that i have a wide range of recent history, and characters, from the first book that i can disperse throughout this new book. Meaning that when my original series gets published, the reader can look back this current book and see characters mentioned in advance. In fact, i'd like to write two or three or four books in that world in advance of the main trilogy/whatever it takes.

It's also given me the benefit of being concise, in the new book, not having so much history. As much as i wanted to argue otherwise, there is really only so much ancient history that is directly relevant. Think of massive batles, ancient empires, and legendary heroes or villains. You do not even have to give definitive dates for them.

Again, like so many have said, focus on the writing and the rest will fill itself in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, third draft of the book is done. Overall, i reigned in the book considerably.

First draft of the book was 197,322 - Third draft: 181,123

First draft of the prologue: 8700 words - Third draft: 4,031 - Technically the second draft, i suppose, as it only got 2 treatments.

So, in total, i manged to cut 20,549 words. Zombiewife had suggested 30,000 words, which i tried to reach. I managed to get the main body of the work down to 177,000 words...but i changed the sex of one of the secondary POV characters (Talvonan - if you are curious, Zoe). But in changing the secondary-POV characters sex from a male to a female, so that i could have a female POV in the book, which i felt was very important, i had to add. Talvonan previously was a nice character, but a little bland. Changing the sex, considering the cirumstances, absolutely required a bit more time spent with the character. And the result, i feel, is awesome. The character breathes and comes alive, and should the book ever get published and they want a follow up, she would become one of the main-POV characters.

So now, final read through by my proof reader at the same time as i'm going to send it to a girl that does professional editing. It needs to be done, and i've recognized that i'm really not the one to do it.

Taking a breath of fresh air from this book, now, i'm moving on to the next one. It has some cross-over, but is set in a different world. I have spent a considerable amount of time creating a living breathing world for what i hope is a series of books, but i wanted to do something a little more fantastical. If the book i just finished, The Scar, does not get published i will work on this one. If it does, i'll put this to the side and work on a sequal to the Scar.

So, given my typical writing cycle, as long as my new business does not kill me, i think The Grey should be about six months for a first draft. Perhaps less. (As for the title, i know it is similar to the Scar, and is exactly the same as Liam Neesons new movie, but rest assured, my main character will not be punching wolves with duck tapped alochol bottles. The name is one that i've been kicking around for awhile, as was the Scar, so fuck China Mieville and that Russian guy that just published a book with my name)

The new series is a mix of genres. There are guns, but they are completely fueled by magic, and it takes place on continent sized floating islands that exist in an infinite alternate dimension, which is actually a prison for an ancient race of demons called the Dem'tokk. This endless void of grey is called the Faded Tiers. So, it uses the magic system i've developed for my previous works on my main world, but changes them according to the new physics of the universe it inhabits. So it's magic, with some western, with some steampunk, i suppose.

I would explain more, but for some reason i can't think of a great many people sharing the more intimate details of their books in here. I'll try to keep my natural enthusiasm in check.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dackad, ancient history generally is pretty "empty", as in not well understood, compared to modern. Unless you just want to be certain in your own mind what happened, you can handwave gaps away pretty easily. Look at the RL reaction to ancient times outwith the Judeo-Christian trait of tracking all history via the Bible: past ages of demideity heroes and gods-on-earth turn up all over the place, from the Americas to Australia via Europe and Asia.

Yea, don't fall to far into the history trap. It has relevance, for sure, but keep in mind the most important dates and make up others as you go. You can always retcon on a redraft if you have to, but most likely there is only so much history that you are going to mention in one book in any case. Especially ancient history.

Yeah, you're both right. Not sure why I got so hung up on this, but, well, I did. Such is my fate. :D

Congrats Arthmail, always nice to hear when someone in this thread makes some big progress. Good luck on the getting it published part!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, third draft of the book is done. Overall, i reigned in the book considerably.

First draft of the book was 197,322 - Third draft: 181,123

First draft of the prologue: 8700 words - Third draft: 4,031 - Technically the second draft, i suppose, as it only got 2 treatments.

Nice effort. :cheers:

But isn't even 177,000 still unpublishably long? I was under the impression anything more than 120,000 is a no no, even for epic fantasy.

(I'm aiming for 100,000 myself).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice effort. :cheers:

But isn't even 177,000 still unpublishably long? I was under the impression anything more than 120,000 is a no no, even for epic fantasy.

(I'm aiming for 100,000 myself).

I've heard varying accounts. But i'm writing a book, dammit, not a novella. Haha.

I've heard the number is 200,000. But ultimately, it will come down to how good the book is, not how many words it is. For myself, with what has happened to likes of Michael J. Sullivan, i'll honestly go the electronic route if things do not pan out with an agent and a publisher. Sell enough copies of an e-book, and traditional publishers will take notice.

I suppose that ultimately i am not worried. My main proof readers loved it, and Zombiewife was nice enough to read it and send me back a 5000 word response - which she would not have done if there was not some merit to the work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word count wars have gone on for years. Some people preach it as gospel that 120,000 words is the max that a first time author can submit with any kind of success. It's true that 120,000 is a safe number, but there have been 200,000 word books published by first time authors in the last five years or so. So, it's not unheard of.

The best advice I've seen is to write and polish it the best book you can. If that means you can tighten it down to 130k, then do it. If it takes north of 200k, well just be aware that the odds are stacked against you, but a great story breaks all "rules" in publishing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word count wars have gone on for years. Some people preach it as gospel that 120,000 words is the max that a first time author can submit with any kind of success. It's true that 120,000 is a safe number, but there have been 200,000 word books published by first time authors in the last five years or so. So, it's not unheard of.

The best advice I've seen is to write and polish it the best book you can. If that means you can tighten it down to 130k, then do it. If it takes north of 200k, well just be aware that the odds are stacked against you, but a great story breaks all "rules" in publishing.

Yea, i'm like the Han Solo of unpublished authors. Its a heavy burden, but when you shoot first, its all that matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just realized that I suck at writing men. Most of what I write is just for fun or different experiments and in this story I'm trying to give all of the pov characters unique (well hopefully) voices. This has been pretty interesting so faar and not very friustrating because most of them have well-detailed backgrounds that I can use but this one male character has no such thing and so all he thinks about are sex, booze and money. It is horrible. The other male characters are okay but they're mostly asexual so it seems ridiculous that the only heterosexual male character acts like a frat boy. /rant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just realized that I suck at writing men. Most of what I write is just for fun or different experiments and in this story I'm trying to give all of the pov characters unique (well hopefully) voices. This has been pretty interesting so faar and not very friustrating because most of them have well-detailed backgrounds that I can use but this one male character has no such thing and so all he thinks about are sex, booze and money. It is horrible. The other male characters are okay but they're mostly asexual so it seems ridiculous that the only heterosexual male character acts like a frat boy. /rant

If a character is sometimes stuck in my head, and not really making a presence on the page, i think of an actor or character in a movie and sort of model them off of that. It gives you a voice, and a style, perhaps even mannerisms that you can pick and choose from. I mean, it depends on what the characters does, but i did that for the book i just finished and its helped me immensely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you guys write so much?! I struggle to reach 80k. I'm always wanting to come up with more and failing. Blech. I'd rather have to cut than be staring bewildered at my draft wondering where to pull more plotlines from!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you guys write so much?! I struggle to reach 80k. I'm always wanting to come up with more and failing. Blech. I'd rather have to cut than be staring bewildered at my draft wondering where to pull more plotlines from!

Lack of sleep. Seriously. I usually write between 9 and 1 every night. Weekends help. No social life helps too. Writing while at social events helps too. (Google Docs on my iPhone, seriously)

Word Count: What Myr said....good story trumps all. WD started as a YA fantasy of 99k, turned into a more streamlined YA fantasy of 83k that turned into a fantasy novel of 130k. Book Two could be 176k, could be 200+k, depends on what these characters decide to do.

Arth, the "traditional publishers/e-book" thing is an extreme rarity...an extreme rarity. Just saying. I've never considered the vanity press method. It doesn't interest me. If my book doesn't have what it takes for someone to take a chance on publishing it, then it's not good enough to do so. Try again. But that's just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arth, the "traditional publishers/e-book" thing is an extreme rarity...an extreme rarity. Just saying. I've never considered the vanity press method. It doesn't interest me. If my book doesn't have what it takes for someone to take a chance on publishing it, then it's not good enough to do so. Try again. But that's just me.

It's never appealed to me either. But as a business model, publishing is fairly flawed. You have how many new fantasy books published a year? And from that, how many are from already established authors? As with any publishing, you have less than 1% that is getting published. So, between publishing houses only having so much money to risk on new authors, and having to fight the untold masses trying to get published, you have a very narrow and pathetic margin for hope of success.

Would i want to self-publish? No. I'd be so reluctant. Is not getting anything out there an option because for some reason, that year, i didn't fit into the 1%. No. Success in self-publishing is rare, to be sure, but so is getting published. There are so many factors that you cannot influence, and many have nothing to do with the quality of the work. And i do not see editors or publishing houses as the sole gatekeeper to deciding what is good in any given piece of work. I mean, even when looking at the success that Michael J. Sullivan enjoyed, the publushing houses clearly shit the bed. He was selling, if i remember correctly, something like 800-1000 copies a month, at like $6.99 as a self-published author. Other authors have pushed far more out, and some less.

I think a new model should be put in place. If an author believes enough in their work, and pays for professional editing, the publishing houses should give them a dry run in e-book form. An alternative to their mainstray authors, an option for readers. They would need to pass some sort of criteria to be put in place of course, but at that point the market could decide what they liked. If the author attracted enough interest, the conditions of the book could then be negotiated and a deal struck. This would give a clear and concise forum for untested authors, it would allow publishing houses to take more of a risk at no risk, and it would give readers a direct line to books that they might enjoy over established authors. I think, to be honest, that this would drive the sales of books for everyone through the roof.

Starkess: Like Ebenstone said, you just have to keep going. When you hate it and the words won't come, to when you love it and they fall like mana from the heavens. It is a job. It's not really a hobby like people think, because hobbies to my mind have some sort of pay off that people can see. A progress report, if you will. If i had taken up chess when i started, i would be a world ranked chess player. I could have gotten a PHD. Instead i sit alone in the dark of my office with my cat while my wife, who is considerably understanding, does something else. It helps that i own a construction business, so i can keep odd hours if need be. But devot a block of hours and write no matter what. Do not frequent this forum so much, etc. Since yesterdays post, i have four pages on the new book finished.

So, highlight characters and the world. Have an idea of where you want to go. Most people make an outline, but i find that only works for me a little bit. And then go. Do not stop. If characters change half way through the story, if the fucking story changes half way through the story, do not go back until you are done. Change the story on the fly, and then retcon it later. Banging your fingers until they bleed against the keyboard is the way it goes. Practice makes it easier. Reading and understanding how you want to write make it easier. I've been writing for...solidly, for about ten years. But it took until 2 years ago for me to learn how to do it in a style that was my own. In that time, i rerwrote my original book and then put it aside because i doubt that i can get published as a first time author with a six part series clocking in 300k a book. So i wrote the Scar, which has taken about a year all told, with life getting in the way. It would take less if i did not own my own business, or if my cat was not so cute and insist that she needs to sit on my keyboard and purr.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I didn't mean like how do you manage to write so much physically or anything. I could produce 120k words, sure, but not on a single project. I just struggle to tell a story that's long enough to break the 80k barrier! And I finished my first novel manuscript almost 11 years ago, so I'm not sure this is something that will ever change. I'm resigned to writing slim tomes, I suppose!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I didn't mean like how do you manage to write so much physically or anything. I could produce 120k words, sure, but not on a single project. I just struggle to tell a story that's long enough to break the 80k barrier! And I finished my first novel manuscript almost 11 years ago, so I'm not sure this is something that will ever change. I'm resigned to writing slim tomes, I suppose!

Ah. Nothing wrong with that. As for me, i include the little things that make people human in each sequence, and that usually adds some words.

My greatest trick? If i don't know what to do, i add a fight. A massive battle or a fist fight, it does not matter. Blood is shed. Seems to get my creative juices jiving again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I didn't mean like how do you manage to write so much physically or anything. I could produce 120k words, sure, but not on a single project. I just struggle to tell a story that's long enough to break the 80k barrier! And I finished my first novel manuscript almost 11 years ago, so I'm not sure this is something that will ever change. I'm resigned to writing slim tomes, I suppose!

I plan and plot ahead of time so I have a frame to work from. Then fiddle around with it as needed.

It works for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding word counts and publication, most of what Arthmail said (congratulations on the successful revision, btw - Talvonan as a woman? Wow). RD is complete and polished at 134K. It could be 126K if I knocked off the last three chapters and put their rewrites in the next book as Intro to What Happened Last Time, but the book wouldn't be as well balanced. I'm shopping it at both extents to see what happens (sue me). There are no more plotlines I can remove without damaging something and I've trimmed it on the line level as much as I can. We'll just have to see what happens!

Regarding book extents in terms of writing... I've never had an issue with it, but maybe that's because I've always tended to think big: epic fantasy, space opera, they're not small-scale. One of my main aims with the backup plan is to come out with a pure space-opera-setting-action-thriller, which should be a tad shorter by necessity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding word counts and publication, most of what Arthmail said (congratulations on the successful revision, btw - Talvonan as a woman? Wow). RD is complete and polished at 134K. It could be 126K if I knocked off the last three chapters and put their rewrites in the next book as Intro to What Happened Last Time, but the book wouldn't be as well balanced. I'm shopping it at both extents to see what happens (sue me). There are no more plotlines I can remove without damaging something and I've trimmed it on the line level as much as I can. We'll just have to see what happens!

Regarding book extents in terms of writing... I've never had an issue with it, but maybe that's because I've always tended to think big: epic fantasy, space opera, they're not small-scale. One of my main aims with the backup plan is to come out with a pure space-opera-setting-action-thriller, which should be a tad shorter by necessity.

I'm terribly embarrased, i conflicted your real name with someone elses screen name for awhile. I don't know what the hell i was thinking. Thats what i get for being too lazy to go and read my messages. I'm incredibly sorry, as i confused you with Zombiewife.

Frick. As for Talvonan, yea. I think it really makes the character pop more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...