Heresy 2

[kissdbyfire]

Agreed on Mother.

As to the rest:

Essentially all I'm doing in the first place is compressing the sequence of events into a more realistic timeline, pegged to the ancient history of Britain which Westeros resembles in so many ways.

As to the Pact, no, what I'm suggesting is that because they were losing the war against the First Men, the Children unleashed the Long Winter. This forced the First Men to agree the Pact and the Winter was then contained by the Wall.

What I'm then suggesting is that the War for the Dawn wasn't connected with the Long Winter but was the legendary version (out east) of the Andal invasion of Westeros

I see. But I don't 'see' it, really. Even though I firmly believe the 'histories' as we've heard them are not precise, I don't think they would be that far off. I mean, the Battle for the Dawn not being connected to the Long Night is a stretch, IMO; it being instead connected to the Andal invasion simply makes no sense in my view. Why would the Andals - since it was them who recorded these events - twist them in that specific manner (changing the BftD from Long Winter thing if it had been something so different)?

[Black Crow]

Well in the first place as I suggested in an earlier post there's the simple matter of how you can calculate time without records. 12,000 years ago takes you back in real history to the start of the Neolithic period or just before. The Andals knew that the First Men arrived a long time before they did but there's no way they could set a date on it. 12,000 years, or 8,000 years is just a made up number signifying a very long time ago.

As to the War for the Dawn, again as I said before, the crucial thing here is the forging of Lightbringer and the use of iron weapons which first came to Westeros with the Andals.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... a battle for a dawn seems pretty much the same to me as a battle to end a long night. When you're close to the Arctic you loose daylight in winter. So a long night could mean the same as a long winter. I think they meant the same, but they (Andals, First Men, Children) saw it from different perspectives. As Ygritte told Jon: it depends on where you stand.

[FanTasy]

As to the War for the Dawn, again as I said before, the crucial thing here is the forging of Lightbringer and the use of iron weapons which first came to Westeros with the Andals.

Yes, but there can be doubt if Lightbringer is a forged iron sword. It could be no sword at all.

We are told that there was a guy who forged a sword. But that could be a translation to more modern concepts, to make later generations understand something that happened before iron blades were forged.

[kissdbyfire]

Well in the first place as I suggested in an earlier post there's the simple matter of how you can calculate time without records. 12,000 years ago takes you back in real history to the start of the Neolithic period or just before. The Andals knew that the First Men arrived a long time before they did but there's no way they could set a date on it. 12,000 years, or 8,000 years is just a made up number signifying a very long time ago.

As to the War for the Dawn, again as I said before, the crucial thing here is the forging of Lightbringer and the use of iron weapons which first came to Westeros with the Andals.

I agree with you when you say the Andals had no way of knowing the precise dates; 12,000 or 10,000 etc. And I have said I believe these official histories to be inacurate, but there are two points here... one that FanTasy already made: The Battle for the Dawn translates, to me, as The Battle that Will End the Long Night. :-) Simplistic? Maybe, but I think it's correct as well. The second point is, even though the Andals couldn't know the exact dates of events so far back in the past, I would imagine they relied on some sort of evidence when writing their histories; maybe some of them had knowledge of runes. What's the origin of the maesters? Or, if not the maesters, I imagine they would have had scholars like archaeologists, geologists, etc. Not with those titles, just people with knowledge in these matters. Of course, this is just a major assumption of mine... But I think the Andals brought modern technologies and knowledges to Westeros. Not that it was good, and they were probably the worst thing to happen to the continent. I think of the Andals as the most similar to modern men in our times, actually. Does that make any sense at all? I know you won't agree, and that's cool. I'm not trying to convince you, just wanted to know if I made any sense; I tend not to late at night after a few single malts.

:cheers:

apologies in advance if it's poorly written on top of not making sense. It's the booze, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

As to Lightbringer, we hear the exact same tale about twice only, once from Saan, and once from Melisandre. To be taken not with a grain of salt, but rather a bucket of it!

[Bran Vras]

Oral History can not be transmitted over thousand of years. This is even more or less said in the books (by Sam I think). But I would rather take the history lesson given by Maester Luwin et al as accurate. Otherwise, no speculation is possible. (You can reason with a little amount of solid information. You can reason with a lot of semi-reliable information. But you can't reason with scarce and unreliable information...)

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

The Long Night from the description (dark/nighttime, cold, etc. ...) first reminded me of similar things we have records in our own history: Volcano Eruptions (or meteorites or...)! The really big ones blew so much ash and stone into the athmosphere that "the sky darkened" and temperatures fell until the ash had settled down again. These are world wide phenomena and differ naturally from the size of the explosions. One of the dino apocalypses is the most poignant example, but several of these also happened in Human time. There's the predecessor of Krakatoa around 500 AD, connected to the whole "Charlemagne didn't exist, these three hundred years were imagined afterwards"-theory (which is of course not true, but was popular), there's Krakatoa itself, which was smaller, but from which we have detailled reports and measurements.

So, could it be something like this? Meaning that while the "invasion" of Force B raged and drove A back, this event X (first doom of valyria? ;)) happened, lowering temperatures and thus helping Force A since they had the knowledge (plants, crops, knowledge of hot springs, etc. ...) to survive in this sort of winter and the pact really is more of a "sharing" like Thanksgiving? But it's not like the Children created the Long Night.

Totally crackpot?

[hotweaselsoup]

The Long Night from the description (dark/nighttime, cold, etc. ...) first reminded me of similar things we have records in our own history: Volcano Eruptions (or meteorites or...)! The really big ones blew so much ash and stone into the athmosphere that "the sky darkened" and temperatures fell until the ash had settled down again. These are world wide phenomena and differ naturally from the size of the explosions. One of the dino apocalypses is the most poignant example, but several of these also happened in Human time. There's the predecessor of Krakatoa around 500 AD, connected to the whole "Charlemagne didn't exist, these three hundred years were imagined afterwards"-theory (which is of course not true, but was popular), there's Krakatoa itself, which was smaller, but from which we have detailled reports and measurements.

So, could it be something like this? Meaning that while the "invasion" of Force B raged and drove A back, this event X (first doom of valyria? ;)) happened, lowering temperatures and thus helping Force A since they had the knowledge (plants, crops, knowledge of hot springs, etc. ...) to survive in this sort of winter and the pact really is more of a "sharing" like Thanksgiving? But it's not like the Children created the Long Night.

Totally crackpot?

No, not crackpot, except that I believe that GRRM has stated that the wonky seasons are a result of magical forces. Otherwise, I would agree that a "long night" is an apt description of the fallout from a massive volcanic eruption (or nuclear winter, for that matter).

Which leads me off on another tangent (I just can't seem to stay on-thread, apologies) about the Azor Ahai prophesy. It seems to me that it's a very eastern prophesy - even the name Azor Ahai sounds more Ghiscari than anything - and it seems pretty clear that Melisandre has been trying to manipulate her surroundings to fit the prophesy. Casting Stannis as Azor Ahai, making the fake sword, interpreting the War for the Dawn as a battle against the Others, etc. But the prophesy is all about bringing light against darkness - in the original prophesy that we hear from Mel, is there any mention of cold? That seems to come later, once she has determined that it's the Others that Stannis must battle, right? So it got me to thinking that maybe the original Azor Ahai, as a saviour figure bringing light, was not prophesied for Westeros, but for the slaves in the mines of Valyria? Mines in the depths of the earth are dark, and full of terrors. Melisandre is petrified, above all else, of darkness. Could she have been sold as a slave to the mines? It would certainly explain her absolute terror of the dark. Is Azor Ahai a Spartacus figure, a freer of slaves?

Not sure where I'm going with this, other than I think there's a whole underworld - under the ice, under the hills, caverns, tunnels, wormways, crypts, under the sea, down the mines - that might be coming into play in the next couple of books. It makes sense, if you go for that yin yang thing :D

[Eyron]

Arianne says something very poignant during her little "let's crown Myrcella" fiasco during AFFC: "One day the singers will make all of us immortal." Obviously she's not talking about the Children or the Others, but I do think it's an interesting turn of phrase, since singers have repeatedly been associated with granting "human" immortality via songs of heroic exploits, and now we know the long-lived Children "sing the songs of earth"; nobody knows what the Others call themselves, or what the Giants call them---they could easily be considered to "sing the songs of ice." (In fact, Leaf's little exchange with Bran is rather striking, because she mentions the Children/singers, the giants, mammoths/direwolves/western lions . . . but nothing about the Others/White Walkers at all. We don't know what the Children call them. We don't even know what the Children call themselves, only what the giants call them.) The whole religion of the old gods seems geared toward the propagation of life---when people "die" they go into the trees, streams, rocks, etc., they don't leave this earthly plain and go to a heaven/hell/world of the stars/etc. When the Kindly Man asks Arya "Do you know of any folk who live forever?", the implication GRRM could easily be hinting at is, yes, we do---the Others (and possibly the greenseers), neither of whom appear to die (at least, not of what we would consider 'natural' causes).

I completely agree, the songs give us immortality, we had a little "group-hug" moment about that in the "Did Jon find the horn of winter" thread. :) The peoples "without history" as in written records depend solely on stories and songs, and by songs we remember our heroes forever for example.

I also think the Children know that the dead go on as spirits (sort of) in nature, continuing the cycle of life, like "recycling" not only of matter but also of the mind. The interesting part is that the Children know this, because they can communicate with animals, nature, and earth, and they would not want their brothers, the giants, mammoths, aurochs, direwolves and so on to die out from another long winter. They would not want them turned into wights. (I don't beleive that the wights go back to normal)

A reason for Leaf not mentioning the Others specifically could also be that the Others are men, or were originally. She goes on to say that in the world that men have made, there is no place for them or us. (I don't have the exact quote) Like discussed in the first heresy thread, she seems to be talking about the old species and her own kind having no place in the world that men made.

The world that men made seems to me to mean civilization, hierarchy, war, agriculture, technology and everything that removes us from the nature that gives us life and eventually in our attempts to do this we end up seeking to prolong life unnaturaly, some even seek even immortality of the flesh as well as the mind, which is as far from nature as we can come - we don't give our matter back to nature and we cling to our mind. That is the big difference between the Children and men using sorcery to become immortal. The men cheat death, whereas the Children surrender their flesh and give their mind up to the "hive-mind" or collective in dying I believe. The ability to become part of the trees and the godhood of the Children do not make themselves immortal, your mind would be "dissolved".

I have a feeling that we will not see the end of the old species in this story or see them "sail away into the sunset", like we did the elves in the LotR series, since it would be much more interesting to tip that on it's head and see them rise and take a place in the world that men made. With the help of Bran of course.

The other option is that they indeed die out forever. But if that happens I am sure the consequences will be dire for men, indirectly because of the Others (they will move things along for sure) but primarily because of the Children's song ending. The song they sing for earth are of monumental importance I think. Hence my signature below :) From the giant's song but still a big hint in my opinion. Perhaps this is what we are seeing now, the dwindling of the Children leading to inbalance. And perhaps that is what happened in the Long Night, and that was why there was a pact (including a marriage, hostages, oaths what have you) to ensure their continuation in Westeros, we can't be sure about those timelines.

Benerro says, in ADWD, that death itself will bend the knee to AA, and all those who die in his/her service will be reborn. (He also says that AA will bring a summer that never ends, but maybe the Red Priests mistranslated there, and it really refers to "a winter" that never ends?) If the Others are actually trying to preserve human existence during the Long Night via wightification, as the wights can "survive" in conditions that humans cannot (yes the current wights are dead, but the line between dead and alive might be far less clear with wights made while winter magic grows), I don't know if we can call their methods inherently evil, especially as humans themselves seem so very keen on murdering and raping and flaying each other. The only thing the Others have done to people so far is kill them, which humans themselves frequently do, and then raise them, which humans practically never do.

That humans do equally evil things, or worse perhaps, does not make the Others' actions less evil to me. I believe the Others are raising an army of dead, without consent. If those dead are regaining more and more of themselves it just makes it more terrible in my opinion. If Coldhands is the future for mankind, I can't see that as a good thing.

If the Others don't know anything about magics effects on the world and want to help mankind to survive and there is no alternative known to them - I agree their intentions are not evil. The method on the other hand...

To me intent requires some control over the process, so they would not have to raise everyone. I do not think they can control it though except it seems they can delay the rising, so they are actually just bulldozing their way through the north making wights left and right, not caring how many limbs are still on your person. I can imagine how pissed I would be when my "mind" started to come back in the normalization process, if I had no body. Having to go look all over the north for that body, which also would be moving about aimlessly, and the trouble of getting someone to carry me around. Perhaps to find my body had been eaten by some stupid direwolf... Or that my head just would not grow back on my neck. Or just waking up to die again since a head and a body don't survive being separated. If the plan is to save people why do the other wights rip them apart when they can just kill them neatly.

OR they are not making the wights at all, it's just a hazard of winter itself and that white cold we hear so much about, making winter the threat that kills you - but also not the threat but in fact the solution... No I don't think so.

What Benerro says seem like PR to me, and he is a R'hllor priest so I don't put any trust in his words, but if he is right and we reverse it to mean the long winter, I could accept a second life given by the Others only under some circumstances, and only if it is not actual physical immortality we are talking about, but a second life.

If a winter that will last a generation is coming, and if wielding Ice magic is not dangerous on a grand scale (and of course this would mean fire magic and all other kinds of elemental magics in extension are not dangerous either), if Ice magic does not have any "deteriorative" or rather amplifying effect on the seasons (that should be known by the ones wielding it before they use it) and there is no alternative way to survive, like going south or overseas, and those who want to be subject to this consent - yes then I think it is OK. Even Benerro say "those who follow him", not every dead body in Westeros.

If a winter that never ends is coming - it would all be pointless and cruel since the next generation can't survive. That would take more than wightification ending in normalization.

Of course one could argue that nobody knows how long this winter will be, and we can't use hindsight logic here but men survived the last winter so there is no reason to suspect they would not this winter without wightification, unless it IS known to the Others that this will be a winter that never ends - making wightification for survival pointless IMO.

Or do you mean that the wights eventually become White Walkers, with wighthood as a really long incubation period, eventually having their minds back and their reproductivity restored?

I don't believe that is what is happening, so I can't base my arguments on those premises, even though I find it very interesting to discuss this. I think magic and immortality are essentially harmful and I don't think that the power of ice magic is growing at the same time as the long winter descends for the purpose of humanity surviving in this story. I don't think the wights are the future, or that the White Walkers are trying to save mankind.

Maybe you are right and that is the twist that we all have a feeling is coming. I would not like it much, and I don't think it would be a good way to go storywise since the "low scale" of magical elements would go out the window IMHO, making everyone a wight or undead. I had a hard time with Uncat and UnBeric, and I see Coldhands as nothing but tragic. That the First Men or the Starks were responsible for starting the Long Night a long time ago, and that the ghosts are awaking in the north are sufficient twists according to me, and I am open to many and more things too.

Purely philosophically I think that if men can kill and resurrect without consequence, mankind will have no respect for life or death. One can argue that is already the case, but if we take out death as a factor it would be the end of hope for a better world in my view. Nihilism here we go! Not what I expect from GRRM at all, but I don't know him...

Edit: ooops sorry for the slightly long post...

[Aluminum Link]

As to the Pact, no, what I'm suggesting is that because they were losing the war against the First Men, the Children unleashed the Long Winter. This forced the First Men to agree the Pact and the Winter was then contained by the Wall.

I haven't fully followed this topic and reading 500+ often-lengthy posts is not in the cards, so I apologize if this has already been discussed before.

First, I have to admit that I don't buy into the vast majority of the theories being put forward in this thread. Not saying that they're impossible, I just don't see the evidence as being substantial enough to put a lot of faith in them.

But I'm particularly confused about the point above. I don't really understand how the purpose of the Wall can be to hold back Winter or the Long Winter. Clearly areas south of the wall still experience cripplingly long winters, lasting many years, snows 100ft deep, etc. Similarly, areas north of the wall still experience summer. It's not like the climate changes dramatically from one side to the other.

If the wall were truly an ancient magical windbreak built to hold back the forces of ice & winter then wouldn't there be more physical evidence of it doing exactly that? If it can't hold back long winters (which GRRM also admits are magical in nature), how can it possibly hold back The Long Winter. Certainly the last half of ADwD seems to be suggesting that winter is hitting hard and the Long Night could be coming back despite the wall still being healthy and whole.

Conversely, the magic of the wall has been clearly demonstrated to repel the undead that live North of it (e.g. Coldhands can't pass, Jon's corpses won't rise, etc.) suggesting that that is its primary purpose, as is suggested elsewhere in the books.

In general I think any claim that contradicts what the author has included in the text requires some pretty strong evidence (R+L=J being the classic example). And I don't see the evidence in this case.

[Ser Raymun Fossoway]

Well in the first place as I suggested in an earlier post there's the simple matter of how you can calculate time without records. 12,000 years ago takes you back in real history to the start of the Neolithic period or just before. The Andals knew that the First Men arrived a long time before they did but there's no way they could set a date on it. 12,000 years, or 8,000 years is just a made up number signifying a very long time ago.

As to the War for the Dawn, again as I said before, the crucial thing here is the forging of Lightbringer and the use of iron weapons which first came to Westeros with the Andals.

which pov is the Nights KIng mentioned in?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

That's fair enough; if in real world terms you expect a 14th century scholar to be able to speak with complete authority on events which may or may not have occurred up to 12,000 years before - about 1,000 years before the start of the Neolithic Period.

Given what we do know of Mediaeval scholarship and the way that historical events which occurred only as far back as the first millenium AD were transformed into legends such as the Mabinogion, which features a High King of Britain called Bran the Blessed and significantly Bran translates as Raven or Crow. I prefer therefore to work with the clues we're given.

As for Bran the Blessed: http://en.wikipedia....ran_the_Blessed

(although I think its GRRM's little joke rather than anything significant, Bran also appears in some versions as Bron)

I need to dedicate some real time (which I don't have at the moment) to read through this very interesting thread and it's predecessor in order to post anything of substance, but I just saw this and I'm so glad someone else caught it. I used to love Celtic mythology when I was a kid so I immediately thought of ravens when Bran was introduced as a character. And then I realized that was in no shape or form an accident, when he was visited by a three-eyed-crow. Also interesting, is the prominence of ravens and the Night's Watchmen being referred to as crows.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

which pov is the Nights KIng mentioned in?

I believe it's mentioned in one of Bran's POVs in Storm of Swords, when we learn about the Nightfort stories (Night's King, Rat Cook, Mad-Axe, Seventy-Nine Sentinels and Symeon Star-Eyes).

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

People keep saying there are no COTF south of the wall, but I thought they still lived on the Isle of Faces? The possibilities of the COTF making WWs is intriguing if this is true. Maybe once God's Eye is frozen the WWs will come out. Wasn't there an Old Nan story about somebody escaping Harrenhall only to be killed by one right away? I know Harren mixed human blood in the mortar when it was being built. Maybe the same kind of magic that was used in the wall? Harrenhall could be a refuge later on. I think Lady Whent has some info about the Isle and COTF, if only she would pop up. I can totally see WWs dormant underground on the Isle just waiting for winter.

Sorry if that was off topic but I see similarities between the wall and Harrenhall, so it could be relevant to look at the mythology of both places.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

People keep saying there are no COTF south of the wall, but I thought they still lived on the Isle of Faces? The possibilities of the COTF making WWs is intriguing if this is true. Maybe once God's Eye is frozen the WWs will come out. Wasn't there an Old Nan story about somebody escaping Harrenhall only to be killed by one right away? I know Harren mixed human blood in the mortar when it was being built. Maybe the same kind of magic that was used in the wall? Harrenhall could be a refuge later on. I think Lady Whent has some info about the Isle and COTF, if only she would pop up. I can totally see WWs dormant underground on the Isle just waiting for winter.

Sorry if that was off topic but I see similarities between the wall and Harrenhall, so it could be relevant to look at the mythology of both places.

Obviously, there's something up with Howland Reed, and House Blackwood... but it's not like they're 3 ft. tall elves with 4 fingers, large golden eyes and nut-brown skin. Howland and Bloodraven might be weird, but they don't have long black claws extending from their fingers.

However, I do think it's very well possible that there's a blood relation between the two (i.e. the Houses and the CotF, if that's even possible). Based on everything we know about Howland, he sounds like a very likely candidate to have CotF blood. And, House Blackwood is seemingly the only House in Westeros to have incorporated a weirwood into their sigil, so there has to be some kind of significance with that.

But as far as actual, full-blooded CotF living on the Isle of Faces... I think it's rather likely, especially if they're living under the trees as greenseers (or whatever they're called... which is what I'm assuming). However, the Children haven't been seen by Westerosis for thousands of years, so they certainly aren't making their presence known if they do live south of the Wall.

The relation to Harrenhal is interesting, because we know the Ironborn are First Men who never adopted the Old Gods. But Harren, for whatever reason, did (or, at least, there is a Godswood at Harrenhal). So there's got to be something to that.

Perhaps it's a parallel to the Night's King? Maybe Harren fell in love with a CotF and converted.

Edit: It just dawned on me that Howland attended the Tourney at Harrenhal, which is where he first met the Starks. Of all tourneys, I wonder why he chose to make his debut at that one?.... Obviously, there's something to that. I wonder if he's part of the Order of the Green Men? Or if it still exists?

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Question (a bit off topic, but not really):

When Joffrey dismissed Barristan from the Kingsguard, he joined with Dany instead of Robb. He knew full well that Ned had been named the rightful protector of the realm, as he had read King Robert's letter proclaiming him so, yet he still decided to join with the Targaryens instead of the Starks.

Was this simply due to the oath he swore to House Targaryen (the oath that he broke when it was convenient), or could it be that he had a certain distaste for House Stark, and perhaps more widely, the North in general? Because, even if his problem was with House Baratheon, why would he turn on House Stark? The Baratheons and Lannisters may have pissed him off, but Robb was trying to do "the right thing", and at the time Barristan left Westeros, he had a much better chance of claiming the Iron Throne than Dany did.

What I'm getting at is this; people in the world of Westeros seem to have a much different opinion of the Northerners than we, the readers, do. Is this due to bias on their part, or our part?

[Black Crow]

I need to dedicate some real time (which I don't have at the moment) to read through this very interesting thread and it's predecessor in order to post anything of substance, but I just saw this and I'm so glad someone else caught it. I used to love Celtic mythology when I was a kid so I immediately thought of ravens when Bran was introduced as a character. And then I realized that was in no shape or form an accident, when he was visited by a three-eyed-crow. Also interesting, is the prominence of ravens and the Night's Watchmen being referred to as crows.

I don't post here as Black Crow for nothing :cool4:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Question (a bit off topic, but not really):

When Joffrey dismissed Barristan from the Kingsguard, he joined with Dany instead of Robb. He knew full well that Ned had been named the rightful protector of the realm, as he had read King Robert's letter proclaiming him so, yet he still decided to join with the Targaryens instead of the Starks.

Was this simply due to the oath he swore to House Targaryen (the oath that he broke when it was convenient), or could it be that he had a certain distaste for House Stark, and perhaps more widely, the North in general? Because, even if his problem was with House Baratheon, why would he turn on House Stark? The Baratheons and Lannisters may have pissed him off, but Robb was trying to do "the right thing", and at the time Barristan left Westeros, he had a much better chance of claiming the Iron Throne than Dany did.

What I'm getting at is this; people in the world of Westeros seem to have a much different opinion of the Northerners than we, the readers, do. Is this due to bias on their part, or our part?

I really don't think it had anything to do with his perception of Ned or the north. While Barristan was pretty aghast at Robert's will being ignored, Joffrey was, at that time, still the king. Barristan had no good reason to think or know that Joffrey was a bastard, so he wouldn't have been terribly sympathetic to Ned claiming that he was. Robb, though "doing the right thing," really had no nationwide legitimacy. Similarly, not knowing that Joff wasn't Robert's son, Barristan would have no reason to aid Stannis or Renly. I think that Joffrey booting him out was kind of a wakeup call to Selmy that maybe he should never have sworn fealty to Robert, and he sought to make amends by trying to contact the "last" (known) Targaryen.

[Black Crow]

No, not crackpot, except that I believe that GRRM has stated that the wonky seasons are a result of magical forces. Otherwise, I would agree that a "long night" is an apt description of the fallout from a massive volcanic eruption (or nuclear winter, for that matter).

Which leads me off on another tangent (I just can't seem to stay on-thread, apologies) about the Azor Ahai prophesy. It seems to me that it's a very eastern prophesy - even the name Azor Ahai sounds more Ghiscari than anything - and it seems pretty clear that Melisandre has been trying to manipulate her surroundings to fit the prophesy. Casting Stannis as Azor Ahai, making the fake sword, interpreting the War for the Dawn as a battle against the Others, etc. But the prophesy is all about bringing light against darkness - in the original prophesy that we hear from Mel, is there any mention of cold? That seems to come later, once she has determined that it's the Others that Stannis must battle, right? So it got me to thinking that maybe the original Azor Ahai, as a saviour figure bringing light, was not prophesied for Westeros, but for the slaves in the mines of Valyria? Mines in the depths of the earth are dark, and full of terrors. Melisandre is petrified, above all else, of darkness.

I don't think this is off-topic at all. GRRM has certainly said that the seasonal imbalance was the result of magic, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of magic being used to bring about the volcanic eruption which produced the fallout. If that is the case then the Children are probably in the clear. What I think is more important is as you say the way that Mel emphasises the darkness rather than the cold, which is why I'm inclined to separate the Long Winter from the War for the Dawn.

The two could be connected, but I really can't see where the original AA fits into Westerosi history. Arguably of course the Long Night may not have brought a full blown Winter to Essos and beyond, and other than the curious symetry of the Nights Watch Oath to the prayers to R'hllor there's no evidence of a substantial footing by the cult in Westeros prior to the arrival of Thoros and then Mel after him. So I'd very much be inclined to locate the original AA out east rather than find that he's what the Red Lot call Bran the Builder or whoever because I also agree that the real problem with Mel is that she is trying to impose an alien solution on Westeros and will come unstuck when Winter comes and the Starks return.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The two could be connected, but I really can't see where the original AA fits into Westerosi history. Arguably of course the Long Night may not have brought a full blown Winter to Essos and beyond, and other than the curious symetry of the Nights Watch Oath to the prayers to R'hllor there's no evidence of a substantial footing by the cult in Westeros prior to the arrival of Thoros and then Mel after him. So I'd very much be inclined to locate the original AA out east rather than find that he's what the Red Lot call Bran the Builder or whoever because I also agree that the real problem with Mel is that she is trying to impose an alien solution on Westeros and will come unstuck when Winter comes and the Starks return.

I actually do think that Azor Ahai is the same person (legendary or otherwise) whom Bran knows as the Last Hero, and the legend has simply spread to the east.