The Green Grace is the Harpy

[iamthedave]

So, your solution is...don't bother? Maybe Dany is a ham-fisted idiot for trying to change things, but I admire her for trying. Martin, too, I think:

I'd admire her far more if, when told for the thousandth time that her fight is in Westeros, Dany turned around and said 'I don't care about Westeros, about some throne I've never seen. My people need me and will need me until the day I die. This is my place, and this is my fight. This is bigger than me and my dead family.'

What's always bugged me about Dany's 'anti slavery quest' is that it feels like a side project, something she's keeping herself busy with while she gets the goods to invade Westeros.

Basically, anybody with her amount of power can fight against wrongs they perceive in their vicinity. Even Jaime Lannister does this on a small scale, and he's at least 6/10ths asshole. I don't see Dany doing anything else here. She was upset by the Unsullied so decided to free them, and happened to run through a couple of other slaver cities because they were in the way. She didn't take a moral stand at any point. She didn't choose to stay in Meereen to ensure a peaceful transition between a slave-society and a free one. Her rationale is explicit: "How can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?"

[hotweaselsoup]

I'd admire her far more if, when told for the thousandth time that her fight is in Westeros, Dany turned around and said 'I don't care about Westeros, about some throne I've never seen. My people need me and will need me until the day I die. This is my place, and this is my fight. This is bigger than me and my dead family.'

She may yet come to that conclusion. I hope she does, but you're asking her to have an epiphany that undoes everything that she's ever known about herself and her history. If it happens, it will be hard-won - so I'm not sure why she's being judged as wanting for not having this realization spring fully-formed out of her head, at this point in the game?

What's always bugged me about Dany's 'anti slavery quest' is that it feels like a side project, something she's keeping herself busy with while she gets the goods to invade Westeros.

That's your interpretation of it. Maybe it feels like a side-quest to you, because up until now you've been expecting her to make her way to Westeros? I don't see Dany as a dilettante - I truly feel that she takes her responsibility to her "children" very seriously - but it seems that you think that she's play-acting at being a queen? Strange, because the main sense I get from Dany is that she feels it to be her duty to make sure Meereen doesn't go the way of Astapor, and that the crown she wears is a burden to her (much in the same way that Jon feels burdened by his role as Lord Commander.) Do you think she likes the road she's be set upon?

Basically, anybody with her amount of power can fight against wrongs they perceive in their vicinity. Even Jaime Lannister does this on a small scale, and he's at least 6/10ths asshole. I don't see Dany doing anything else here. She was upset by the Unsullied so decided to free them, and happened to run through a couple of other slaver cities because they were in the way. She didn't take a moral stand at any point. She didn't choose to stay in Meereen to ensure a peaceful transition between a slave-society and a free one. Her rationale is explicit: "How can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?"

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument here. Are you saying, basically, that Dany is little more than an entitled, petulant teenager who pretends to care about the slaves, but really just sees them as a means to an end? If so, then we're just reading different books, I guess.

It's interesting how people interpret Dany's character so disparately. Either Martin is doing a terrible job in writing her, or a brilliant one. Can't decide yet!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Strange, because the main sense I get from Dany is that she feels it to be her duty to make sure Meereen doesn't go the way of Astapor, and that the crown she wears is a burden to her (much in the same way that Jon feels burdened by his role as Lord Commander.) Do you think she likes the road she's be set upon?

The biggest difference that I see here is that Jon was elected Lord Commander. He didn't ask for it, he didn't really seek it at that time (he may have wanted to "try out," but certainly years and years down the line) and he didn't campaign for it. He got it because Sam pulled some strings behind the scenes.

Dany, on the other hand, actively sought to conquer these cities. So in that sense, I have less sympathy for her "burden" than I do for Jon's, given that her burden is a result of a choice that she made for herself. You can disagree, but yes, I most certainly see a distinction between the two of them.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument here. Are you saying, basically, that Dany is little more than an entitled, petulant teenager who pretends to care about the slaves, but really just sees them as a means to an end? If so, then we're just reading different books, I guess.

I think it's a little of both. I think she actually does care about the slaves, but yes, I do get a petulant, entitled teenager vibe from her at times. In the case of the Unsullied, she had a definite motive other than being anti-slavery — she needed an army and could use "slavery is evil!" as a convenient way to get out of paying for it. Why hire sellswords when you can double-cross some cartoon villain slavers, not have to give up anything and still get your thousands of super soldiers? I think she's genuinely shocked that the Harpy is making things so difficult for her. She has the love of her freed slaves, certainly, but I'm wondering if that experience won't set her up to think that adoration of her should be freely/easily given. What will she do when/if she lands in Westeros and that adoration isn't forthcoming? The slaves love her because she removed them, at least temporarily, from lives of bondage. The Westerosi aren't slaves and are much less likely to see her arrival as some sort of blessing.

It's interesting how people interpret Dany's character so disparately. Either Martin is doing a terrible job in writing her, or a brilliant one. Can't decide yet!

I think it's the latter. If there's a character that EVERYONE loves or EVERYONE hates, they can't be terribly complex.

[Torben]

I think it's the latter. If there's a character that EVERYONE loves or EVERYONE hates, they can't be terribly complex.

Well, I neither really hate nor love her. I see her flaws, but I can also understand where they come from (an abusive upbringing, being sold of like cattle, while at the same time everyone tells her she is special and great and above everyone else - it's actually a surprise she has retained a sense of sanity at all) and she is really acting like a teenage girl, but one with enormous powers. The latter I think is interesting and I didn't yet see this point strongly made here: Has it anyone occured that Dany's actions are really like those if an idealistic teenager that gets upset at all the injustice in the world and imagines he had superpowers so he could set everything right? I genuinely felt like that when I was a teen, and I assume it is the same with most people. Just that Dany really has those superpowers (read: Dragons), except, and that is the irony, that superpowers cannot make everything right, because the world is far more complex than teenagers (and many adults, for that) imagine. This plotline reminds me of the "Watchmen" comic, which made a similiar point.

Also, for all the clever points that GRRM seems to have inserted into Dany's plot so far (on the difficulties of transferring values into another cultures, the futility of superpowers, etc.) I actually cannot believe that the conclusion of her arc would be - as some of the fanboys here seem to believe - to fly on a dragon to Westeros to end Cersei's tyranny (which she hasn't even heard of over the course of six books!) and kill all the Others (which she likewise hasn't even heard of over the course of so far!) to be the hero of the day. That would just be totally retarded.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also, for all the clever points that GRRM seems to have inserted into Dany's plot so far (on the difficulties of transferring values into another cultures, the futility of superpowers, etc.) I actually cannot believe that the conclusion of her arc would be - as some of the fanboys here seem to believe - to fly on a dragon to Westeros to end Cersei's tyranny (which she hasn't even heard of over the course of six books!) and kill all the Others (which she likewise hasn't even heard of over the course of so far!) to be the hero of the day. That would just be totally retarded.

I don't see this happening, either. I think she's more likely to use her dragons to fight off Aegon than to fight off the Others. Assuming she maintains control over all three of them, which I think is assuming a lot.

[iamthedave]

She may yet come to that conclusion. I hope she does, but you're asking her to have an epiphany that undoes everything that she's ever known about herself and her history. If it happens, it will be hard-won - so I'm not sure why she's being judged as wanting for not having this realization spring fully-formed out of her head, at this point in the game?

Right, so we can't discuss the character as she stands, and must only speak of a hypothetical Dany who may or may not ever exist at the end of the books? How can we do anything but judge the character as she stands, with the information given us by the books that have been written?

That's your interpretation of it. Maybe it feels like a side-quest to you, because up until now you've been expecting her to make her way to Westeros? I don't see Dany as a dilettante - I truly feel that she takes her responsibility to her "children" very seriously - but it seems that you think that she's play-acting at being a queen? Strange, because the main sense I get from Dany is that she feels it to be her duty to make sure Meereen doesn't go the way of Astapor, and that the crown she wears is a burden to her (much in the same way that Jon feels burdened by his role as Lord Commander.) Do you think she likes the road she's be set upon?

I address you to her last chapter, where it seems very strongly to me that she's decided her fight is in Westeros, these aren't her people, and this isn't her fight. If that chapter wasn't written specifically to be an 'epiphany' chapter, then Martin never will write an epiphany chapter ever again in his writing career.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument here. Are you saying, basically, that Dany is little more than an entitled, petulant teenager who pretends to care about the slaves, but really just sees them as a means to an end? If so, then we're just reading different books, I guess.

No, I just don't see her as taking a great moral stand the way some people like to pretend. Dany has not decided her role in life is to be the ender of slavery, she's happened to beat up some slavers because they were in her way, and then decided to stay and try to rule a single city to see if she could handle seven kingdoms. I'm not putting my own spin on things, she said that in almost those exact words at the end of... Storm of Swords, was it? Been a while since I read them all, I forget the order.

To me it so far reads like Martin wanted to give Dany an easy, moral-clear series of opponents to face, free from all the complexities and grayness that dominates Westeros, so he throws cartoonish, blatantly evil slavers in Dany's way, complete with grotequeries so we can't help but notice how evil they are and cheer her on for her inherent goodness as she fights the evil slavers. But just because she's beaten up a few slave cities does not make her the great campaigner for social justice that some of her fans like to paint her as. That will only emerge in Winds of Winter.

When Dany beats the Yunkish host, and has her ships, and the option is clear to go to Westeros, that is when we'll see who she is. That is when Dany either shows us she never truly cared about SLAVERY (which is different from the specific slaves who have sworn themselves to her), or that her experiences in Meereen have hardened her heart and made her decide that this needs to end and she's the one who can do it.

Right now all I can go off is her behaviour in Dance and her final chapter, neither of which convince me that her anti-slavery crusade was - as I said - anything but a side project and the result of her happening to need to go through some slave cities on her way to the nearest port.

[The Storm Queen]

Well, I neither really hate nor love her. I see her flaws, but I can also understand where they come from (an abusive upbringing, being sold of like cattle, while at the same time everyone tells her she is special and great and above everyone else - it's actually a surprise she has retained a sense of sanity at all) and she is really acting like a teenage girl, but one with enormous powers. The latter I think is interesting and I didn't yet see this point strongly made here: Has it anyone occured that Dany's actions are really like those if an idealistic teenager that gets upset at all the injustice in the world and imagines he had superpowers so he could set everything right? I genuinely felt like that when I was a teen, and I assume it is the same with most people. Just that Dany really has those superpowers (read: Dragons), except, and that is the irony, that superpowers cannot make everything right, because the world is far more complex than teenagers (and many adults, for that) imagine. This plotline reminds me of the "Watchmen" comic, which made a similiar point.

Also, for all the clever points that GRRM seems to have inserted into Dany's plot so far (on the difficulties of transferring values into another cultures, the futility of superpowers, etc.) I actually cannot believe that the conclusion of her arc would be - as some of the fanboys here seem to believe - to fly on a dragon to Westeros to end Cersei's tyranny (which she hasn't even heard of over the course of six books!) and kill all the Others (which she likewise hasn't even heard of over the course of so far!) to be the hero of the day. That would just be totally retarded.

I really like your approach to Dany. To me her story is actually rather tragic. She has promising talents, can adapt to circumstances in a short amount of time etc.. But unfortunately her abusive upbringing had left a deep mark on her. If I remember correctly, up to SoS Dany refuses to face the fact that Drogo bought her like a slave.

I suppose that you can interpret the Essos-Plot and especially Meeren in three different ways.

I. A mere "side show" to prepar Dany for war and rulership before she has to face Westeros. I hate hate hate this and hope Martin is not going for this angle. It is cynical and feels like lazy writing

II. The teenager with superpower approach you suggested. I have to admit that I never saw it that way but it makes a lot of sense, especially given Dany´s abusive background in addition. It would make sense for her to project her sufferings (which she never wants to reflect directly) onto another repressed group.

III. The subversion of the classic white-person-saves-uncivilized-savages-for-their-own-good narrative.

[iamthedave]

I really like your approach to Dany. To me her story is actually rather tragic. She has promising talents, can adapt to circumstances in a short amount of time etc.. But unfortunately her abusive upbringing had left a deep mark on her. If I remember correctly, up to SoS Dany refuses to face the fact that Drogo bought her like a slave.

I suppose that you can interpret the Essos-Plot and especially Meeren in three different ways.

I. A mere "side show" to prepar Dany for war and rulership before she has to face Westeros. I hate hate hate this and hope Martin is not going for this angle. It is cynical and feels like lazy writing

II. The teenager with superpower approach you suggested. I have to admit that I never saw it that way but it makes a lot of sense, especially given Dany´s abusive background in addition. It would make sense for her to project her sufferings (which she never wants to reflect directly) onto another repressed group.

III. The subversion of the classic white-person-saves-uncivilized-savages-for-their-own-good narrative.

Evidence suggests he's NOT going for option 1, despite what I've said so far. We've had it prophesied that she'll 'go east in order to go west', which seems to imply she'll tromp around Essos more before going to Westeros, and that she may in fact take that stand I'm talking about.

Though how she gets to it from where she ended Dance, I don't know. I see nothing whatsoever in her last chapter that fills me with a sense of hope. The words 'The dragons know who you are, do you?' Do not portend goodness from me. Being 'known' by bloodthirsty, burninating wild animals is a very bad sign if it means what it seems to. Martin's dragons are hardly noble, intelligent, discerning creatures, after all.

Besides, something's sure to come of that Volantis bit. I'm just not sure how exactly.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Yeah, I thought that Barristan had been more suspicious and just reread his last chapter and ... he isn't, really. He's still assuming it's Hizdahr and/or a dude.

Your reasoning for why Dany would trust the Green Grace makes a lot of sense, and like you said, she was already betrayed by one maternal type.

Also, if Dany ends up losing Westeros and/or getting killed because of Olenna Tyrell, my head will explode from the awesomeness. :bowdown:

I don't want Dany to win Westeros at all. She seems incredibly slow and childish (Barristan's remark on her preference over analogical mud to fire.) And I think the only reason why she's gotten so far is because of everything handed to her. She was married to Drogo, gifted with eggs, and she thinks it's her right to sit the Iron Throne, not her duty, which is the major difference between her and Aegon. If she didn't have the dragons, she would be nothing. And she handles nearly every situation terribly.

My best hopes is for Dany to make it to Westeros, have Aegon be bonded to Rhaegal, (Jon to Viserion?) and then die in one battle or another. I won't try to predict what will happen though, Martin is notoriously unpredictable. I mean really, before ASOS came out, do you think anyone could have predicted that Robb would have died even though he was undefeated?

[Ladywhiskers]

The Green Grace echoes the words of the Yunkai'i. From the lips of the Yunkai'i, Barristan wouldn't even consider it, but from her lips the words have more weight.

How could she have known about Hazzea, the girl Drogon ate? The audience hall was almost empty by the time he displayed her burned bones, and Dany paid him one hundred times the worth of a sheep for his silence. Her bones were put in the Temple of Graces, and candles were lit for her name, but the information about how she died was not supposed to leave the the audience hall. I know, there' still a chance Dany told the Graces, but wouldn't that make it more difficult to keep it a secret?

Perhaps the Harpy arranged the death of the girl to begin with, to frame Drogon and make Dany dungeon up the other three? This was the best hope of controlling and overpowering Dany--strip her of the dragons. So why not convince her that they were out there killing kids?

How to get the father to go along with it? Easy. Threaten to do in the rest of the family unless he followed instructions.

Why not make a bigger deal of it? To give Dany the illusion that she's in control, so that she voluntarily locks up the dragons. I'm sure they hoped that she'd declare open season on Drogon, too. I think the Harpy is behind it, and I do believe the Green Grace is the Harpy.

[Ladywhiskers]

I don't want Dany to win Westeros at all. She seems incredibly slow and childish (Barristan's remark on her preference over analogical mud to fire.) And I think the only reason why she's gotten so far is because of everything handed to her. She was married to Drogo, gifted with eggs, and she thinks it's her right to sit the Iron Throne, not her duty, which is the major difference between her and Aegon. If she didn't have the dragons, she would be nothing. And she handles nearly every situation terribly.

My best hopes is for Dany to make it to Westeros, have Aegon be bonded to Rhaegal, (Jon to Viserion?) and then die in one battle or another. I won't try to predict what will happen though, Martin is notoriously unpredictable. I mean really, before ASOS came out, do you think anyone could have predicted that Robb would have died even though he was undefeated?

Actually, I predicted Robb was toast as soon as Lady was killed. Don't ask me why--I just started wondering which wolf was next, which led me to Robb automatically. Even though he was awesome and even though he won all of his battles. And the instant he ignored Greywind, I figured they were both toast.

I had thought Dany was out of luck when she dungeoned up the dragons, but Drogon wouldn't be captured, and the other two got free, and that gives me hope for her.

[Lady Octarina]

About the Green Grace, I always thought there was something strange about her, that she could be betraying Daenerys somehow, but the thought she was te Harpy never occurred to me. I actually thought there was never ONE Harpy, but a group of people that represent the entity somehow (a hypothesis that comes from one of the characters, I believe?). But it does make much more sense the old lady would be their leader, and it's the old tale: you'll always be betrayed by those that are pleasant to you, smile at you. It has happened to her before, it can happen once more from Dario, the Green Grace would only be a third (or THE THIRD?) traitor. The same happened to Jon, and I could bet this will happen to Aegon as well, which would be an interesting thought: the three [supposed] Targaryen, suffering from the same evil of trusting the wrong people...

Well, I neither really hate nor love her. I see her flaws, but I can also understand where they come from (an abusive upbringing, being sold of like cattle, while at the same time everyone tells her she is special and great and above everyone else - it's actually a surprise she has retained a sense of sanity at all) and she is really acting like a teenage girl, but one with enormous powers. The latter I think is interesting and I didn't yet see this point strongly made here: Has it anyone occured that Dany's actions are really like those if an idealistic teenager that gets upset at all the injustice in the world and imagines he had superpowers so he could set everything right? I genuinely felt like that when I was a teen, and I assume it is the same with most people. Just that Dany really has those superpowers (read: Dragons), except, and that is the irony, that superpowers cannot make everything right, because the world is far more complex than teenagers (and many adults, for that) imagine. This plotline reminds me of the "Watchmen" comic, which made a similiar point.

Also, for all the clever points that GRRM seems to have inserted into Dany's plot so far (on the difficulties of transferring values into another cultures, the futility of superpowers, etc.) I actually cannot believe that the conclusion of her arc would be - as some of the fanboys here seem to believe - to fly on a dragon to Westeros to end Cersei's tyranny (which she hasn't even heard of over the course of six books!) and kill all the Others (which she likewise hasn't even heard of over the course of so far!) to be the hero of the day. That would just be totally retarded.

THIS! :agree:

I like your "idealistic teen/superhero" interpreation. I'd never seen it that way, but it has always been absolutely clear to me that she never had any idea of what she was doing - improvising is her thing. And that also leads me to compare her with the other two (possible) remaining Targaryens. Aegon does everything but improvise - someone made a plan for him, and he has followed it through his whole life. Until he decided to listen to Tyrion and improvised, going straight to Westeros and starting a new war, another trial for the people he intends to protect, especially now that winter has arrived and the previous wars barely allowed them to gather enough food for the new season. In both cases, improvising may not have been the best idea, but I think it's still too soon to judge Aegon's decision or abilities. And then there is Jon... he had only one plan: living his whole life in exile in the Night's Watch. So far, it had its ups and downs (Mormont choosing to prepare him to command one day; becoming Lord Commander; a few friendships X having to join the wildlings; being considered a traitor by many, many times; the occasional stabbing at his last chapter). Of course, his plan had to adapt to new circumstances (Stannis, wildlings, LC, etc), and he has managed to be succesful much of the times he improvised, which is funny, because both Jon and Daenerys were the ones who had the best chances to test their talents and ruling abilities, and look at the results...

[David C. Hunter]

Just to let y'all know, Team Green Grace is recruiting on my campus(NYU!) I plan on joining tomorrow. I've always wanted to see pyramids.....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps the Harpy arranged the death of the girl to begin with, to frame Drogon and make Dany dungeon up the other three? This was the best hope of controlling and overpowering Dany--strip her of the dragons. So why not convince her that they were out there killing kids?

How to get the father to go along with it? Easy. Threaten to do in the rest of the family unless he followed instructions.

Why not make a bigger deal of it? To give Dany the illusion that she's in control, so that she voluntarily locks up the dragons. I'm sure they hoped that she'd declare open season on Drogon, too. I think the Harpy is behind it, and I do believe the Green Grace is the Harpy.

The biggest lesson of Drogon attacking the child was for Dany to realize that her dragons are wild animals, not pets and not children. Having the Sons of the Harpy roasting a child to pin it on Drogon completely undermines that lesson. So no, I don't see it. Drogon did it.

And I do still think that if the Harpy was involved, there would have been a bigger public spectacle about it, and a more vocal cry for Dany to kill the dragons, not just lock them up.

[Melifeather]

i'm convinced. :agree:

[Ladywhiskers]

The biggest lesson of Drogon attacking the child was for Dany to realize that her dragons are wild animals, not pets and not children. Having the Sons of the Harpy roasting a child to pin it on Drogon completely undermines that lesson. So no, I don't see it. Drogon did it.

And I do still think that if the Harpy was involved, there would have been a bigger public spectacle about it, and a more vocal cry for Dany to kill the dragons, not just lock them up.

Then how did GG know about it?

It could be a message that the dragons are getting too big to be considered children. I personally don't like how fast they've grown---I think it should take longer than 3 years, for Drogon to get a 20-foot wingspan and start eating horses.

And I just don't see what's in it for him, to eat a child. A sheep would have been more filling, and just as easy to catch. Wild animals turn on humans when prey is scarce, or when they themselves are disabled and can't catch normal prey, or when they're confined in a space with the human and their territorial instincts take over. None of this applies to Drogon at all. Dany was starting to suspect that people were getting paid for way more sheep than Drogon was actually eating--anyone could throw some bones in a fire and blacken them, and in a culture like Mereen's, it would be very easy to find expendable humans of all ages that no one would miss, to create a hoax with.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Given that all Mereen is now putting enormous pressure on Selmy to kill all the dragons, I still think that GG thought she could guilt Dany into giving them up, quietly and with a minimum of fuss, if she set the scene carefully and let Dany think it was her own idea. A screaming crowd would actually have the opposite effect on Dany--suddenly she'd become aware of how much she needs the protection and backup from the dragons, and become more protective of them, not the mob threatening her. But if she felt sorry for the people, she might take their side against her "children"--as in fact, she did, until someone attacked Drogon. As soon as there was a mob out for dragon blood, Dany's sympathy for "her people" evaporated, and she flew away with Drogon.

GG is a skilled manipulator. It's her job. I think she knew she was better off with Dany quietly chaining up the dragons where GG could have her people dispatch them, than openly demanding that she have them killed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then how did GG know about it?

It could be a message that the dragons are getting too big to be considered children. I personally don't like how fast they've grown---I think it should take longer than 3 years, for Drogon to get a 20-foot wingspan and start eating horses.

And I just don't see what's in it for him, to eat a child. A sheep would have been more filling, and just as easy to catch. Wild animals turn on humans when prey is scarce, or when they themselves are disabled and can't catch normal prey, or when they're confined in a space with the human and their territorial instincts take over. None of this applies to Drogon at all. Dany was starting to suspect that people were getting paid for way more sheep than Drogon was actually eating--anyone could throw some bones in a fire and blacken them, and in a culture like Mereen's, it would be very easy to find expendable humans of all ages that no one would miss, to create a hoax with.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Given that all Mereen is now putting enormous pressure on Selmy to kill all the dragons, I still think that GG thought she could guilt Dany into giving them up, quietly and with a minimum of fuss, if she set the scene carefully and let Dany think it was her own idea. A screaming crowd would actually have the opposite effect on Dany--suddenly she'd become aware of how much she needs the protection and backup from the dragons, and become more protective of them, not the mob threatening her. But if she felt sorry for the people, she might take their side against her "children"--as in fact, she did, until someone attacked Drogon. As soon as there was a mob out for dragon blood, Dany's sympathy for "her people" evaporated, and she flew away with Drogon.

GG is a skilled manipulator. It's her job. I think she knew she was better off with Dany quietly chaining up the dragons where GG could have her people dispatch them, than openly demanding that she have them killed.

I imagine there were other ways for it to get out. Other people were still present in court, if I remember. The guy just came in at a late time, when a lot of them had left. No reason that the Grace couldn't have learned about it.

If the child is there and is easy prey and he's hungry, why wouldn't he eat the child? He gnawed on Barsena in the fighting pit, did he not? He has no obvious qualms against eating human flesh.

Like I've said before, the death of the child was a wakeup call to Dany about what she's actually dealing with — flying fire-spewing death machines that won't necessarily differentiate between humans and animals, or innocent and guilty people. It's a valuable lesson that, frankly, she needed to learn and I'm glad she learned. Having the solution be, "Oh no just kidding, it was the Sons of the Harpy framing the dragon" is just a big copout to me, giving Dany yet another "out" when it comes to taking responsibility for what she's unleashed on the world.

[Ladywhiskers]

If the child is there and is easy prey and he's hungry, why wouldn't he eat the child? He gnawed on Barsena in the fighting pit, did he not? He has no obvious qualms against eating human flesh.

Why don't lions and tigers eat people? Because it's just not worth it, unless there's something very wrong with the animal, or the animal's usual prey is too scarce. Wild predators have predictable needs, preferences, and patterns.

Barsena was already dead when Drogon decided to eat her. He was really interested in the pig. So far, although the dragons have all done a fair amount of toasting people in self-defense, none of them but Drogon has actually scarfed any of the charred remains, even though they could have. I think this is significant. We're still learning what the dragons are about. They are very dangerous animals, but I don't think they are indiscriminate killing machines. Being hand-raised by a human always makes a wild animal a little tamer, and complicates their behavior.

I think it's a great pity that Dany doesn't have more knowledge about dragons, and doesn't seem to know where she could get it. But if the whole solution is that the dragons are simply fire-spewing death machines, then how can she possibly take responsibility for them, except by killing them? I don't think it's that simple.

Before attacking the Yunkai, the dragons didn't burn anyone, in spite of daily opportunities to attack servants, passers by, etc....They only attacked on command, and only killed Yunkai, (which they didn't eat.) They killed no Unsullied and no servants or merchants or other slaves. Why? In the House of the Undying, how did Drogon know to burn the people about to harm Danaerys, but nobody else? How do the dragons know when to stop? Because they do seem to know.

None of them had attacked a human unprovoked. Rhaegal killed a lot of people when he was chained, but he had a definite reason. Neither Rhaegal nor Viserion have toasted and eaten anyone for the fun of it, or out of hunger. That's why I consider it very suspicious that Drogon appears to have done. I am not at all sure what it is that Dany has "unleashed on the world."

And I think there are some other lessons besides "dragons are very dangerous" that Dany still needs to learn, such as, "don't trust the Green Grace," and "quit being so easily manipulated," and even, "get the hell out of Mereen already."

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And I think there are some other lessons besides "dragons are very dangerous" that Dany still needs to learn, such as, "don't trust the Green Grace," and "quit being so easily manipulated," and even, "get the hell out of Mereen already."

Those lessons exist regardless of whether or not Drogon killed the child or was framed. "Don't trust the Green Grace" is still an obvious issue, independent of the dragon killing the child. As is "get the hell out of Meereen already." Neither of those lessons rely on Drogon being framed. However, the lesson that the dragons are dangerous and untamed and unpredictable does seem to rely on Drogon attacking a child with provocation.

You're free to think Drogon was framed if you want. I'm not buying it and don't see myself buying it anytime soon. I don't really even see any subtle textual indication that that might be the case.

[Lady Octarina]

@Ladywhiskers

I think the books made it clear for us that Drogon is by far the most curious of the three dragons. He doesn't accept limits, he can barely take orders, so why is it so hard to believe that he might have been curious about the taste of human meat, a meat he had never before had the chance to taste? Wild animals may not behave in that way, but dragons are much more than that: they're mythical monsters. And I can't consider the argument that we haven't seen him eating humans in other scenes as valid, because we have barely seen Drogon in the whole book - who knows how many humans he could have eaten the time he was away? As far as we know, Daenerys could find a pile of charred human bones around his new "home".