LuisDantas Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Here's a good description of Nixon:The last line reminds me of GRRM's description that Stannis will "break before he bends".True. And I suppose you could call both men "focused", but I think that is a misleading emphasis. "Crippled" is a more accurate word. Actually, "conflicted due to their core hypocrisies" seems just about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I think of the three Baratheon brothers as parallels to Edward IV, Richard III and George, Duke of Clarence.Robert: Edward IV, a charismatic warrior-king who eventually descended into hedonism. Held his two brothers together; they hated each other. There were family power struggles while he was still alive and definitely after he was dead.Renly: George, Duke of Clarence. Fairly politically savvy but of a pretty weak character. He joined in dangerous political alliances with the Earl of Warwick (Britain's equivalent of Mace Tyrell) and married one of his daughters, Isabel (like Margaery). George, unlike Renly, died while Edward IV was still king. He was supposedly drowned in a barrel of wine.Stannis: Richard III. Richard was a very skilled military commander who nonetheless was never terribly popular in the south of England. He, like Stannis, went into a sort of self-imposed exile when he thought Edward IV favored George more than him. He usurped his nephews' claim to the throne (unlike Joff and Tommen, they were legitimate). Richard was a pretty hardheaded guy — he probably personally killed Henry VI, ordered William Hastings' summary beheading and had his nephews murdered. Only major difference is that Richard was younger than George, and Stannis is older than Renly. Other than that, the sets of brothers are pretty damn similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's Sty Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 This thread has made me think about the Baratheon brothers. Does anyone else think it is a little funny how sexually varied they ended up?Robert: Heterosexual Sex FiendStannis: AsexualRenly: Homosexual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Why funny? Sexuality is such a personal thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's Sty Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Just how varied they all are, not just in personality but in sexuality. People say that Renly was a lot like Robert, but I think even those two were very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBaratheon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 He's basically Inspector Javert IN SPACE on Westeros.He hold Davos in higher esteem than highborn lords.He prefers to hear the truth, even if it's unpleasant.He has sarcasm.He can sire shadow assassins.He is the rightful king.He's Genre Savvy enough to know how screwed they all are just because they're on Westeros. Besides him, only Sandor seems to be this realistic.He defends the realm while other kings are busy backstabbing each other.He endured Selyse for 12+ years. He slept with Selyse and is still alive.He survived on rats.He will never give up.But as to nobody loves him?Davos definitely does, and his deep loyalty and love and respect is what Stannis never got from other people.All the points in the above is a sign as to why Stannis is my favourite character!Stannis is a fighter, we all know he has the best claim to the Iron Throne, and through the struggles he has endured from ACOK, he has become a better character! In ACOK, he was very stubborn, and arogant, but as it progressed to ADWD, he has become more open to others opinions, rather than locking himself in a room if he doesn't get his own way!Plus, Stannis is the best chance the North has for being rid of The Boltons and The Freys! And for all the loving Stark fans, is the best character to strike out revenge and vengence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Stannis is a fighter, we all know he has the best claim to the Iron Throne, and through the struggles he has endured from ACOK, he has become a better character! In ACOK, he was very stubborn, and arogant, but as it progressed to ADWD, he has become more open to others opinions, rather than locking himself in a room if he doesn't get his own way!Plus, Stannis is the best chance the North has for being rid of The Boltons and The Freys! And for all the loving Stark fans, is the best character to strike out revenge and vengence!Loving Stark fans want Starks and loyal Northmen to strike out for vengeance. Certainly there was a window when Stannis was able to draw together elements of the disarrayed North, but between winter, rumours that Rickon lives and the widespread attitude of the North remembers, that window seems to be closing.And has Stannis really shown so much character development? He brooded on Dragonstone, he brooded on the Wall, and he appeared to be doing no different at the snowed-in village. True, most commanders do not share details of their plans with their armies; but he left his troops on the outside with neither personal loyalty to him, nor confidence that he had any plan to sustain them.Reasons for liking Stannis, off the top of my head:1. Unintentional Hilariousness. Perhaps more so than I've ever seen, in any other form of literature. ("I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy;" "Laws should be made out of Iron, not out of pudding." "Lord Gunther said it was brilliant. I could show the man the contents of my chamber pot, and he would say the same thing." "I would have more milk from her, and less talking. She was hired for her teats, not her tongue." (Heh. This last one especially sounds pretty fucking hilarious out of context.) "Robert could piss in a glass, and they would call it wine..." "The father is the girl's own father? We are glad to be rid of the whore, then. I will not tolerate such abomninations here, for this is not King's Landing!") And many, many only slightly lesser lines.Good stuff.We need to start a thread of "Stannisisms", seriously.All that talk of presidents? This list reminds me of a poster I had as a student of 'Bushisms'. That was hilarious too, but didn't make me a fan of him.The rest of that list; pathos, mystery, complexity, make chapters with Stannis interesting to read - but they don't make the man likeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlayedMan Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Because he's awesome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Poem Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Apple Martini compared Stannis Baratheon with Richard III, but everyone's point of view for this monarch based on Sheakspeare's play and it based on Thomas More's book, but - Thomas More was five years old - FIVE - when Richard III died in the battle and his all long life lived under the Tudor's rule. How could he to be objective in this matter, I don't know.I was reading some book about Richard III earlier and it ... I meant Richard III seems to be better person and king than his brother Edward and Henry VII.Edit: I hope it was'nt big offtop.I like Stannis Baratheon, because he will be the best king and his personality is FULL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 To the extent that it is possible to talk objectively about monarchs and politicians, it seems to be easier when you have the benefit of hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Night Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 The reasons I like Stannis Baratheon...He believes in unbending justice. While I am usually on the opposite side of the fence, (Chaos and evil!), I respect that he refuses to bend or manipulate justice to placate simpering lords and vapid ladies who want to get something out of him. He doesn't play the game of thrones the same way others do, he does it straight up and doesn't bother with the political crap that the others ensnare themselves in. And unlike Eddard Stark he recognizes that honour is good, but can be a hindrance and you should know when to operate without it, when to bide your time and when to pick the right moment.His deadpan humour is hilarious. Tyrion and Jaime have the witticisms and character studies of others that show them in a funny light, but Stannis gets the uncomplicated yet hilarious humour. He can simply say something that another would say in anger or sarcasm and make it funny just by not allowing emotion to enter it.He is willing to hear things he doesn't like and deal with them in a calm manner. Dany, Cersei, Robb, Joffrey and Renly all are, or were, incapable of this. They are, or were, utterly disinterested in hearing things that didn't benefit them or another's opinion on something if it disagreed with them or seeing the truth and not trying to ignore it because it isn't what they want to see. Stannis at first was the same but his trials have made him willing to listen to others, take advice and recognize the value of a dissenting opinion.He is a real warrior. Dany has never touched a sword in her life and would never do so, Robb was more of a battlefield commander same as Tywin Lannister, Renly was something of a decent jouster, Joffrey was a coward and Tommen is a boy. Stannis is a real warrior and commander, he knows how to fight and can defend himself quite well. Which is the main reason I don't believe Ramsay Bolton's BS letter about killing him, Ramsay couldn't hope to cut through even the weakest of Stannis's knights let alone the man himself.He knows that good acts do not erase evil acts. Other kings and queens are willing to pardon murderers, rapists, thugs and madmen if they can get something out of it. Stannis believes that you should pay for what you do, no matter how much money you offer to throw at him, how many swords you offer to pledge to his cause, or how influential you are. If you have performed an evil act, you should pay for it and accept it.LotN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horik of House Carl Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Stannis has very strong emotions, as others have said, his bitterness, his desires to be loved, his jealousy of Robert. All of which are understandable (but not admirable).I thought Stannis had the personality of a lobster. I think Stannis has 3 emotional states: neutral, annoyance, and anger.He exploded at Davos because Davos directly undermined his authority and possibly ruined his plans. He didn't want to kill Davos for that, but felt that he was probably obligated to.He judges things by self-interest just as much as any character in the book, not on merit. You think Imry florent got made admiral of his fleet based on merit?Davos was certainly a merit based appointment. The decision to go to the Wall was definitely not out of self-interest. In fact, Stannis doesn't even want to become King. He feels that he is obligated to take the throne.No offense, but this post seems to indicate a lack of familiarity with actual CEOs. The apprentice is a show, the winners don't really get anything, nor are the contestants representative of anything other than trying to get ratings. The only actual CEO on screen is Trump, who is the opposite of a robot, and is buffoonish in his over the top persona.I would respectfully disagree. People like Trump and Branson are extremely flamboyant for CEOs, that's why they always get the media's attention. Most CEOs are more like Tim Cook of Apple... boring, boring, boring. But very efficient, roboticaly efficient.Management guru Peter Drucker has worked with countless CEOs over several decades. He says that CEOs don't need to be charismatic or loved and in fact most aren't. They simply need to get the job done.http://www.amazon.com/Effective-Executive-Definitive-Harperbusiness-Essentials/dp/0060833459/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324391810&sr=8-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBaratheon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Davos was certainly a merit based appointment. The decision to go to the Wall was definitely not out of self-interest. In fact, Stannis doesn't even want to become King. He feels that he is obligated to take the throne.Surely if Stannis never wanted to become The King, he could have easily let Renly have shot at it! :dunno:I don;t think Obligation is the only reason Stannis wants to take the Throne! There is always more to something that complex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_s_6 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Because a man like Davos supports him. And no, it's not about Davos. It's what he sees in Stannis that I admire. For a man to gain the support of one of the more beloved characters in the book... it really is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuchandMore Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Stannis is my favortie as well....for all the reasons listed in the previous pages and then some.Except for the rightfull king part. While his claim is obvioulsy better than the incest kids, its certainly not as good as Danys....technically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBaratheon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Because a man like Davos supports him. And no, it's not about Davos. It's what he sees in Stannis that I admire. For a man to gain the support of one of the more beloved characters in the book... it really is something.Good point to raise!If Stannis is so hated by people, for being unmerciful, showing harsh forms of Justice, etc..... then how come a smuggler who has been dealt the full brunt of Stannis might grow to adore and love his liege lord that he is so willing to die for Stannis! I think Stannis lets more out than he thinks, and Davos helps to show us so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediocre cheese Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 He is a real warrior. Dany has never touched a sword in her life and would never do so, Robb was more of a battlefield commander same as Tywin Lannister, Renly was something of a decent jouster, Joffrey was a coward and Tommen is a boy. Stannis is a real warrior and commander, he knows how to fight and can defend himself quite well. Which is the main reason I don't believe Ramsay Bolton's BS letter about killing him, Ramsay couldn't hope to cut through even the weakest of Stannis's knights let alone the man himself.You know its interesting reading the stannis threads. I can't stand him personally, but its amazing how those who like him not only cite his good qualities (which do exist), but make up attributes about him, which blatantly don't exist. And this make him sound like a two-dimensional hero, as opposed to the multidimensional character he is. Stannis isn't a "real warrior" in the way robert, or rhaegar, or jaime are. This is explicitly said in the book: "Stannis was watching too, Tyrion knew. He’d never had his brother Robert’s thirst for battle. He would command from the rear, from the reserve, much as Lord Tywin Lannister was wont to do." In a battle Stannis is like Tywin, he commands from the rear, unlike Robb who fights in the vanguard and nearly gets himself killed in the battle of whispering wood, because jaime is twice his age and would have killed him in single combat. Stannis, in the battle that decided the war, never lifts his sword, he stays out of combat, and gives the vanguard command to guarard morrigen. I have no idea whether ramsay would have killed stannis (if you actually read the letter, its clear ramsay doesn't say he killed stannis, but instead that stannis is dead), but this idea that "no way could evil ramsay kill bad-ass warrior stannis" is absurd and not in keeping with the books. Its explicitly stated that stannis doesn't fight personally, but is a battlefield commander in the manner of tywin.Your blind love of the guy here is funny, because if anything the book has shown is that being a "real warrior" is not an admirable or throne worthy quality.. (in fact when davos thinks of why stannis should be king, he never mentions anything about a warrior). Robert was a real warrior, and he proved to be a terrible king who bankrupts the realm. The ability to smash in another guy's chest with a hammer has nothing to do with the ability to govern effectively. A good general in RL would never personally fight at all, because its impossible to give orders and make troop movements while your being bashed with a mace. If your right flank is being enveloped, and your commanding from the rear, ala stannis or tywin, you can redirect forces to prevent the battle from failing. If your a real warrior like rhaegar, jaime, or robert, you won't have that ability, because you won't be able to see that its happening, as your in the midst of the front lines, and likely can't see beyond your own visor.The fact that stannis is not a "real warrior" and when his army fights in a battle he does not participate is to his credit, it makes him a more effective commander, and means that if he loses a battle he can escape. (Rhaegar, Jaime, ect die or get captured when they lose battles). Stannis is probably not a particularly effective swordsman himself, but that isn't something that makes you either a good ruler or a good commander. In your haste to paint him as a two-dimensional awesome hero, you actually make something up and neglect one his better qualities. Being intellegent enough to realize your own strengths and delegating tasks to those more effective at them is key for any ruler/general. Tywin is in his late 50s, he isn't going to be much use on the front line, so he gives command to gregor (who actually is a "real warrior" and one of the most fearsome knights in the land) while he commands the rears and influences the battle as a general. Its the same with stannis, he's not a real warrior who can kill people with a sword, but he is a good general who can influence a battle in others ways. So he does that, and gives command of the vanguard to someone more suitable for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I've come to admire Stannis because he just doesn't die. The guy seems to escape everything unscathed. For anyone who plays or has played warcraft, he's the guy who has his entire base and population destroyed yet somehow manages to escape and come back to bite you.Hey! Me from a year and a half ago! I now like Stannis for different reasons. It's been good chatting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 We've never even seen Stannis fight, much like Ned and Tywin he's better as a general than a soldier : holding Storm's End, capturing Dragonstone, defeating Victarion during the Greyjoy Rebellion, subduing Great Wyk etc. Robb was one of the only characters we've seen who plays an active (and successful) part in strategy and the fighting itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 "pleasure such as [he has] never know." - it could be sex, or it could be some other type of pleasure that Davos never imagined, Could it be that Mel has access to the only known supply of chocolate in Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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