Is Tyrion really the Valonquar?

[ckal]

No problem, thanks for the edit. I should be getting ADWD in the mail any day now so I'm sure I'll meet him soon.

[JimWolf]

My vote is for Jaime. "The things I do for love..." Cersei would absolutely threaten anyone that Jaime chose over her. Jaime would certainly kill Cersei to protect someone he loves. I don't think his former feelings for Cersei would stop him.

[7V3N]

My vote is for Jaime. "The things I do for love..." Cersei would absolutely threaten anyone that Jaime chose over her. Jaime would certainly kill Cersei to protect someone he loves. I don't think his former feelings for Cersei would stop him.

Be careful not to let kinslaying TV Jaime blend with the book Jaime (not saying you are, just gotta watch for it). I personally do not think Jaime could kill Cersei unless she directly threatened somebody like Brienne. Then the words will repeat: "Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Moon Boy for all we know."

I personally think it is Sandor.

[FacelessDude]

I agree with most in that Jaime is the valonquar. I think he will kill Cersei in book 6 or 7.

[JimWolf]

Be careful not to let kinslaying TV Jaime blend with the book Jaime (not saying you are, just gotta watch for it). I personally do not think Jaime could kill Cersei unless she directly threatened somebody like Brienne. Then the words will repeat: "Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Moon Boy for all we know."

I personally think it is Sandor.

No worries on that score. I won't see season 2 until it comes out on blu-ray in March.

[Horza]

I don't think Jamie or Tyrion are particularly satisfactory (or interesting) candidates. UnTommen is my guess.

[7V3N]

No worries on that score. I won't see season 2 until it comes out on blu-ray in March.

Oh well, uhhh. Spoiler alert :P

[S N Black]

I don't think Jaime killing Cersei would ruin his self-discovery. He's already kicked her out of his life essentially. Plus, he'd be doing the realm a huge favor. I agree with the notion Jaime is possibly the real valonquar since Tyrion is the obvious choice to Cersei but that would be way too easy in this series.

I agree. Tyrion would be the easiest choice, and GRRM seems to avoid the obvious at all costs. I can see "the new Jaime" being driven to kill Cersei just for getting as out of hand as she has constantly been doing since book 1 and prior.

[Maybelle]

OK, if Sandor Clegane survives he is The Mountain's little brother, at least in comparison. At his last appearance* he hadn't quite expired and you can't count anyone out unless you know they are dead once and for all time. Arya didn't give him the coup de grace. How many time has Beric come back? Catelyn?

And he has a thing for Sansa.

Another possibility, Bran in his wolf form.

*As of AFFC

I like that - excellent! Does he have to strangler her? I'd rather see her burn.

[Ashara's daughter]

I'm almost positive it's Jaime, that would utterly redeem his character

[HarrStark]

I hope it is Arya but Jamie would be fantastic in killing her as redemption for all that he has done in past tenths. He is trying to redeem himself, I wont go into it just incase people have not read the books up to adwd (only 300 pages left of that myself so please don't spoil them for me).

As a side note he should write a book about Arya learning her trade and then going making her death wish come true. she may be at the black temple and trying to become a fm but we know she will be Arya stark when she is done. Stick them with the pointy end.

[SharpSara]

A lot of people believe Jaime will turn out to be Cersei's valonqar and will be the one to kill her, me included.

The prophecy did refer to "the" valonqar and not "your" valonqar, so it could be anybody's little brother, however, Jaime killing his sister would be the one that makes most sense, drama-wise.

I'd like for Arya to kill her as well. She's been referred to as a boy many times and Cersei has been in her prayers for a long long time now, so who knows ? I personally would like that.

great point about Arya being called "boy!" That would be great!

[Margaret Ballinger]

I don't belive it's Tyrion, and I have doubts about it being Jaime. He saw his light go out in a dream while sleeping against a weirwood. Cersei had a light too and she told him when his light went out he would also die. She left with her light. Then his went out.

Also Cersei has to lose 'everything that she holds dear.' And Jaime is her brother after all. She has to mourn for him, not be killed by him. She has to lose everything, her children, her position and her home, everything will be stripped away from her before the little brother comes. I don't know who it will be but I noticed whenever something tragic happened to Cersei there is always some symbolism going on.

At Joffrey's wedding, right at that....moment:

"Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her,. . ."

~Tyrion - A Storm of Swords

Also when Cersei is told the news about Tywin, again right at that certain moment:

"A moth had gotten into the lantern Ser Boros was holding; she could hear it buzzing and see the shadow of its wings as it beat against the glass. . ."

And a little later when being escorted:

". . .and she could still hear the moth fluttering wildly inside Ser Osmund’s lantern. Die, the queen thought at it, in irritation, fly into the flame and be done with it. . ."

. . .but their words made no more sense than the buzzing of the moth.

~Cersei - A Feast For Crows

[MoseStark*]

^ Interesting, I like the theory!

I think it will be Jaime, I have that feeling that maybe his thoughts about her, Moonboy and the Kettleblacks will turn him crazy and that he wants it to be over with. On the other hand, valonquar means little brother and Tyrion is not only the younger sibling, he is very little...

Maybe it's something that George Martin wants us to theorize about and in the end make it Tyrion, with the saying that it was really obvios.

However, I'd like it to be Jaime!

[Margaret Ballinger]

MoseStark* - Me too! Also remember Bran's dream:

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

I believe that "shadows all around them" mean that he was seeing more than just the 3. They were surrounded by shadows. He wasn't seeing them that way because they were dead, or that the future was in shadow. After pondering it a while the only thing I could guess on was that shadows were servants. A shadow only follows the movenments of it's master. The shadow follows it's owner and does it's bidding. Like if you had a sidekick that followed you around like a shadow. Or that shadow of Stannis that did his bidding. So if all the serving men and soldiers surrounding Ned & Robert and the kids were shadows in that context, then the other shadows, of Jaime and the Hound, were also serving someone. Or perhaps something. Like Jaime could be serving to protect Sansa, or serving the Kingsguard. The Hound could also be acting to protect Sansa, or serving the Faith. I do not believe he will be in Cersei's trial however, it's way too soon for that. Also it has to be established that he is an 'undefeatable champion,' so it doesn't make sense to bring him out then have him taken down in the first round. But it's odd that Bran saw them both facing Ser Strong, and at that moment. It was when Cersei wanted to kill Arya's wolf, then Sansa's. It was her first act against both the Starks (Bran was Jaime's doing), and the wolves, who were sent by the Old Gods to protect the kids.

Based on Bran's vision, and he was being guided by Bloodraven I have a crackpot theory. Both of them are 'little brothers.' Either one or both of them will expose Ser Strong, and the knowledge of what she created will be her downfall. She gave all kinds of power to the Faith, and if they find out what she made, it goes against both nature and gods. Ser Strong is a reverant. In medieval times they came back to terrorize the living. It was usually a specific person, and they came back for a reason, to haunt a family member or the person that killed them or wronged them (like that movie the Crow). They are not the mindless zombie, however it was considered that they were from an unholy source and the usual action was to burn it. (Makes sense because how do you kill something that's already dead?)

I found out he was a reverant because of a line I read in the books. I didn't know what the word meant so I looked it up on Wiki.

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”

~Jaime - A Feast for Crows

That got me thinking that if only a man of faith could take down Ser Strong - it might not be Jaime. If Jaime is not the valonqar, then I believe Ser Strong will kill him. That would be the ultimate guilt trip for Cersei, that her champion kills her brother. So I could see it playing out that way too.

I have no idea who the 'moth' or what it means, I just noticed it and it gave me a weird vibe. It meant something kind of a vibe. So when I went back to Joffrey and sure enough there is a black dog that somehow had gotten into the throne room that the doors were closed and guarded. Also when she takes her 'walk' she saw things in the crowd like a grey shaggy dog that she thought it 'could be' Sansa's wolf. But maybe it wasn't. Wolves are not easily mistaken for 'dogs' and wolves are not 'shaggy'. The only person I can think of that has a big shaggy dog is Septon Meribald. None of it makes sense to me so I don't know where all this is going, but I just noticed that whenever something happens to Cersei, there is some symbolism. Just something to watch out for.

I honestly don't know who is the volonqar, I just keep an open mind about it. I just want Jaime to live, and the Hound, oh and Davos too. Those guys have been through enough! Davos & the Hound are my favorite guys.

[Forsaken Crow]

I think it's Jaime. I hope it's Tyrion, but that just seems to obvious for GRRM. That can't come soon enough though because I just finished AFFC and Cersei's thought process and actions in that book are absolutely INFURIATING and ANNOYING. She needs to get over herself.

[Seldasher]

Rickon will be the most savage bloodthirsty wild wolf if there has ever been one, and he will be THE Valonquar

(I thought it's Jamie as well but with the way his story is headed i think jamie wont make it out alive)

[rocksniffer]

it will be jamie but not until he is killed by lady stoneheart and revived by the red god...so that cersei will have lost everything and still be killed...because jamie will not really be himself... :smoking:

[First of Her Name]

So if you assume that the woman is following a normal pattern of speech, it is worth noting that she is talking about the children immediately before she talks about the valonqar -- golden will be their crowns, and golden will be their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar will wrap his hands around your neck. If I saw that sentence anywhere else, I would assume that the valonqar was the valonqar of the children, I.e., Tommen. It's got to be either Tommen or a potion, or else she would have had to have said *whose* valonqar?! not "the valonqar." Tommen the Wight? This adds a complication, because if the valonqar is a king, we also do not know whether the hands are his actual hands or his Hands (in which case, it could still be Jaime, actually). I also wonder about the drowning. Will Cersei be drowned by Aeron (or Qyburn)? Or will she be drowned some other way and revived by The Lord-of-light people? It seems to me that the rest of the prophecy is much too literal to attribute the bit about drowning to metaphor. I don't have a going theory or anything, just mulling it over.

[MegaTechPC]

While I think it would be unusually straight forward for it to be Tyrion (something GRRM rarely is is straight forward), I really don't think anybody else makes any sense. I guess we'll see!