Violence! Rape! Agency! The rapiness that comes before

[Sci-2]

On Tyrion/Tysha: the biggest issue I have with it is that Tysha's rape serves as a way to define Tyrion, but it doesn't actually do anything about her. She's a prop. It's a cheap stunt and it's a very common way to ploy sensitivity onto a male character by virtue of showing how much they have suffered because of their lover's horrible plot, blah blah blah. It's cheap, it's exploitative and it's all super rapey. If you want that whole thing to be even more grimdark, you can just have Tyrion be forced to kill Tysha. Or you could just...not. This has similar explanations in plot and story to other fantasy stuff - GRRM was exploring what it really meant in caste back then, how if you were on the bottom rung things just sucked ass and it was dangerous to mingle with the upper rungs, etc, but it's also about Tyrion being made edgier and more sympathetic by raping someone else.

My main concern about this is what it's meant to lead to for the plot, or alternatively what it is meant to lead to for Tyrion's character. A repentant arc? Some sort of self acceptance? Eternal brooding and self-loathing? (I guess for the latter, at least he is not an elf or a vampire.) At present, it's just a lament that keeps going on with no resolution an no forward momentum except for the brooding, the self-loathing and woeful comments. I fully expect Tyrion of the next installment to have to excuse himself mid-dialogue with "Sorry, need to have a small break for some urgent brooding."

I may be biased here, both by being a straight dude and also because I once had to deal with situation where one sister, after being molested, having molested her younger sister.

I think the key thing for me here is that Tyrion is a child when these actions take place.

I think the question of Tyrion's complicty, and his confusion about his complicity, is what Martin is showing us. His guilt, his promiscuity, his attempts to create genuine relationships from superficial sexual transactions -> All real effects of childhood sexual assault.

I'd separate it from say Jorgen in Prince of Thorns, where the traumatic experience is impetus/excuse to write a sociopathic child.

Now I am far removed from the reality of children and violent conflict, but the thing that makes me feel Jorgen is less than stellar as a depiction is my reading of the autobiography A Long Way Gone, specifically a scene where the author along with other children kill the enemy children and then high five each other as if they were in a basketball game. This reality, that they are children and forced killers, is missing from Prince of Thorns which is why, despite any other qualities the book has, it is hard not to think of it as exploitative of the "abuse makes children into monsters" trope.

Now where might Tyrion's arc lead. I'd like to think Martin will present us with an some, even fleeting, examination of how one can return to a sense of positive self-worth after the effects of sexual assault.

Note I realize that there is a big question - where is Tysha in all this - and I retract my earlier statement that her absence might serve to focus on the psychological effects of a child being forced to rape, for all intents, another child.

[Contrarius]

Similarly, the comments by Richard Morgan have made me fairly unlikely to buy more of his books, and I'll recommend to other friends of mine that he writes things that are not very LGBT friendly (or are outright hostile) and tend to be pretty sexist in tone, and the money should be spent elsewhere.

IMHO such a recommendation would reveal more about your ignorance of his books than about Morgan himself. ;)

Do you even realize that, of three protagonists in The Steel Remains and The Cold Commands, one is a gay man and a second is a lesbian female? Do you even realize that a significant percentage of The Steel Remains is spent in describing ways in which the gay man, and other gay men in the society, have been persecuted for their sexual orientation?

Have you actually read these books, or is that just your knee jerking?

When I say 'should', please read it, Contrarius, as this: if the author/publisher/distributor wants to keep getting my money, they should be aware of these things in their works and make honest efforts to mitigate them.

If you mean it that way, then say it that way.

[ZombieWife]

Stop beating it and move on.

Fixed for dirty-factor.

:drunk:

[ZombieWife]

Raping Tysha (Tyrion's story) is just as much about who Tywin Lannister is as it is about who Tyrion is (was and will become). Again, to say, "Well he could have just had her kill the woman instead," is a pretty weak prescription here. It wouldn't have the same impact, imho. Not the same at all.

[Verboten]

So the gay characters in Morgan's books are absolute irrefutable proof against any possible prejudice in those books of any kind? Oh tokenism, is there nothing it cannot solve?

[Axiomatic]

Tokenism? 66% of the MAIN CHARACTERS are gay, and you're talking tokenism?

[Richard]

Couple of end notes:

@ Chaldanya

I must confess that I'm confused by your reasoning here.

Yeah, sorry, was in a hurry and probably abbreviated too much there; what I mean is that the Bechdel test demonstrates how another major aspect of life (women talking to each other about things other than men) is also self-censored out of the Hollywood landscape. Screenwriters learn to avoid it (as they do any male black/female white sexual dynamic) because they know it'll make their work harder to sell.

@ Verboten

Also Richard a thicker skin would serve you well.

Since my work isn't under discussion (or at least wasn't when you posted this), I'm unclear what you mean by this.

@ Kalbear

the comments by Richard Morgan have made me fairly unlikely to buy more of his books, and I'll recommend to other friends of mine that he writes things that are not very LGBT friendly (or are outright hostile) and tend to be pretty sexist in tone, and the money should be spent elsewhere.

Is that censorship?

No, it's not. But the part I've bolded is either sheer ignorance or bare-faced lying. (Cold Commands just made Amazon's 2011 best gay and lesbian fiction of the year list; both it and Steel Remains have been enthusiastically and positively reviewed in the gay press and by gay reviewers on-line.) And thus you showcase exactly the kind of fatwa-style hysteria I worry about. You are prepared to either lie outright about or condemn without knowledge an author simply because you disagree with him.

Things that make you go hmmm........?

[Grack21]

Most people on that thread argued that it wasn't rape but rough sex that she'd consented to : "I had time only to nod once, in acknowledgment or permission" and "Yes, I'll have you" a few lines before.

Yeah. No. Gross.

[Contrarius]

So the gay characters in Morgan's books are absolute irrefutable proof against any possible prejudice in those books of any kind?

Of course not. And if you can intelligently argue to us, using details from the book itself, the ways in which Morgan supposedly shows an anti-LGBT bias, I'll be happy to listen to your arguments. But I'd take a large bet that you can't. ;)

Oh tokenism, is there nothing it cannot solve?

ROFLMAOPIP!!!! :D :D :D

As Axiomatic pointed out -- **2/3** of the main characters in these books are gay -- and now you're trying to accuse Morgan of tokenism???????

[Sci-2]

Admittedly, I am curious about more takes on Richard's TSR and TCC, specifically from the LGBT community.

Without targeting Richard, I will say a book can be 100% filled with characters of any specific group and still be tokenism.

The idea of tokenism (IMO) is that the inclusion, regardless of portrayal, is seen as something to be thankful for. By this logic 80s movies where they are criminals, threats to white women, and dependent on whites to find their moral center was a political positive for the African American community.

[Grack21]

I'm tempted to bring this up on the Outlander thread but I don't know if i can without looking like a troll, and hell, I'd be trolling a little bit myself, I admit.

I mean, apparently a woman's fantasy is to be raped til she likes it by Scrooge McDuck? *shudder*.

Like I always say....Magneto was right.

And now I have to go buy TSR, I'm too curious now.

[Verboten]

I've read the Steel Remmains and was not satisfied with the way it handled it's gay characters. Start a new thread if you're interested, I don't want to derail the conversation further.

[Axiomatic]

Sciborg2, do you not comprehend what the meaning of the word "main character" is?

[Verboten]

Sciborg2, do you not comprehend what the meaning of the word "main character" is?

Are you a part of the LGBTQ community?

[Contrarius]

And now I have to go buy TSR, I'm too curious now.

Great. Maybe it's just me, but I have this funny quirk that makes me believe people should actually READ a book before they criticize it. And if you don't feel like giving the author money, for heaven's sake just check it out of the library.

IMHO these are "tough" books -- tough issues, tough details -- and folks who are easily offended should probably not read them. But, in case you haven't noticed yet -- I like them quite a bit. :)

[Contrarius]

I've read the Steel Remmains and was not satisfied with the way it handled it's gay characters. Start a new thread if you're interested, I don't want to derail the conversation further.

Why would a discussion of TSR derail this conversation? In case you've forgotten, this thread is about violence, rape, and agency in "gritty" fantasy -- and it has already included extensive discussions of sexism and lesbianism. TSR fits our preceding discussion on all fronts.

So, Verboten -- in what ways, specifically, does Morgan reveal an anti-LGBT bias in TSR??

[Contrarius]

Are you a part of the LGBTQ community?

Why in the world should that matter? Does Axiomatic not get a "vote" unless he/she fits your particular criteria??

[Grack21]

Great. Maybe it's just me, but I have this funny quirk that makes me believe people should actually READ a book before they criticize it. And if you don't feel like giving the author money, for heaven's sake just check it out of the library.

IMHO these are "tough" books -- tough issues, tough details -- and folks who are easily offended should probably not read them. But, in case you haven't noticed yet -- I like them quite a bit. :)

Well, I read and enjoy Bakker(ironically which I started reason for the reason I felt I needed to read them before I could really criticize them) so I doubt its that "tough". :P

[Axiomatic]

Also, no, I am not a member of the LGBTQ community.

[Verboten]

Start a new bloody thread about homosexuality in fantasy. Gratuitous violence and rape are not the same as gay characters.