The Official Appreciation Thread for Sansa, Queen in the North v. 3

[littlespider]

And when I say Virgin Queen I really don't mean sexless or with out marriage or love, QE1 had sex and lovers, what she had that Sansa hasn't gained yet is power and choice.

Yeah, we really don't know if QEI had sex or lovers, but I'd bet money that she did. And I think Sansa could market herself as this kind of single ruler and have a romantic plotline.

And if she chooses I think it may be just as her father stated, Brave, Genital, Kind, and Worthy of HER!

You are absolutely right. Whomever Sansa ends up with must be hung like a frakking mastodon. Like, a real knee-slapper.

Best. Typo. Ever.

[Alexia]

Yeah, we really don't know if QEI had sex or lovers, but I'd bet money that she did. And I think Sansa could market herself as this kind of single ruler and have a romantic plotline.

I'd bet money that she did too. I don't believe that Elizabeth was really a Virgin, at all, but she was a master marketer.

Best typo ever, indeed. :lol:

[Grail King]

QON, Lady of the Vale, Riverrun, and she might not want this but Queen of Westeros.

Or GRRM could really mess our minds and sacrifice her, she becomes a total slave to LF.

It's his book, I want to be optimistic.

[Miryana]

I don't think that Sansa will end up as a Virgin Queen; I think she does want children eventually. Besides, I believe that one of the reasons Elizabeth I opted not to marry is that she was the frequently bastardized daughter of a tyrant father who killed two of his wives, one of them her own mother - not a model for a successful marriage. I think Elizabeth was frightened of the idea of marriage, and being subject to the whims of some man. Sansa can remember her own parents, who did have a successful marriage and a good life; and hope that she will have the same.

I remember reading a biography of Elizabeth that quoted her favourite Leicester's claim that she'd been saying she wouldn't marry since they were children. Losing her mother and later, when she was old enough to understand things better, getting a nice stepmother who was also beheaded must have made her wary, to put it lightly. As you say, at least Sansa has Ned and Cat as a positive example.

(I have a whole post to write on ships where the shipper is invested in the male characters i.e. Tyrion/Sansa and often Jorah/Dany, to the deliberate exclusion of the female character's wishes, often accompanied by rage that she doesn't recognize said male character's greatness, but I have work to finish up so I will write my epistle later)

I like Sansa and dislike Dany, but in both cases my response to this kind of attitude is the same. Tyrion/Sansa is my "flames on the side of my face" pairing even over Sansa/Littlefinger because of the times it's been presented as something Tyrion is entitled to for not actually going through with the wedding night rape.

Sansa might mellow a bit about romance and sexuality; if, please the Seven, she's able to get some months or a couple of years of not being afraid of being killed or raped or molested by various power players and could enjoy being a pretty young girl, Alayne or Sansa, at a court with eligible bachelors, not making commitments, but scouting the field. I don't know that Sansa will have that luxury, though.

Continuing the Elizabeth theme, people commented often that even though she always found a way to dodge marriage in the end, she loved the courtships that preceded formal commitments.

[brashcandy]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery Raksha:

20 10 Two-Legged Sentient People With Whom I Do Not Ship Sansa Stark

1. Sandor Clegane: A controversial choice for many many valid reasons. The Hound is not what any one would consider an ideal candidate for a young girl as innocent, and mild-mannered as Sansa Stark. But there is an undeniable "something" between them. Call it chemistry, fatal attraction, perving, whatever you like. There is something about Sandor that does not frighten Sansa, and she is more open and frank with him than anyone else would dare to be (well, besides Arya). He seems to appreciate her essential goodness, despite mocking it, and GRRM has invested some serious suggestive foreshadowing in their relationship. Who knows what will happen, but the point is that it very well could.

2. Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff: I think when he first appeared everyone thought now here's a pretty good option for Sansa Stark! He's perfect on paper. True heir to the throne, but forced to grow up in exile. Given the best of educational opportunities, taught to value the smallfolk and see kingship as a duty, not a right. Good looking, age appropriate, and not married to his aunt as yet! What more could shippers want? Well, besides the incredible elephant in the room concerning Aegon's legitimacy, there's the issue that he's too much of a faitytale prince, destined to shine brightly, but to fade quickly. Sansa herself is wary of these type of men, and it's arguable that GRRM is too. Sansa's entire arc has been about learning not to trust in appearances, and if she ended up with Aegon, in my view I would wonder what that entire lesson was about.

3. Harry the Heir: This is the guy that LF has offered to Sansa, and if that alone isn't enough to make us suspicious, he's also the father of two bastards already. He may be a perfectly nice guy, but the hints of wild behaviour and certain ambition do not inspire much confidence. I would hope that Sansa is able to avoid this one.

4. Edric Storm: A chance for a do-over with Robert's real son. He might not carry the Baratheon name, but he does have the blood, and this would be a bittersweet marriage to honour the linkage between Baratheon and Stark Houses that was first envisioned by Robert and Ned. However, Edric is currently in Lys, and I don't see how he and Sansa would connect anyways.

5. Podrick Payne: Sweet, shy Pod, can't speak a clear sentence, but brave and trustworthy. Again, just going on pure qualities, he would make a sweet husband for any woman. However, I can't see Sansa ever thinking of him in a romantic way. She would value his kindness and sweetness, but she herself is becoming a lot more authoritative, and besides, Pod is too insignificant a character.

6. Sweetrobin: Yes, her cousin. It wouldn't be a love match - at least not on Sansa's part - but it would enable her to get free of LF's control and to have some power and influence over the Vale and potentially Riverrun. In time, when he grows up, Sweetrobin might even be a tolerable guy, not so spoilt and sickly as he is now.

7. Willas Tyrell: The "what could have been" option. Had it not been for LF, Sansa may indeed have married Willas and made a happy life with him. She had already come to terms with his physical disability, and she was prepared to be a good wife to him and make a happy home. And people think Sansa is shallow! Anyways, Willas will most likely marry Myrcella Baratheon now, and in retrospect, the Tyrells are the not the type of in-laws one wants.

8. Trystane Martell: I know you crossed him off your list, Raksha, but I still think they could make a good couple despite the heat and sand of Dorne. They could live in the Water gardens which sounds like a lovely palace and would undoubtedly suit Sansa's tastes and sensibilities. What little we know of Trystane he sounds quite nice and now that the planned union between him and Myrcella is off, he's a free agent.

9. Edric Dayne: Lord of Starfall, Dayne is both noble and age appropriate. He's also shown his courage and loyalty in battle as the squire to Beric Dondarrion. The only problem is that his whereabouts are currently unknown to readers. He may still be with the BWB now though, and Martin may be planning a re-emergence in TWOW.

10. Sansa Stark! The final ship is with Sansa herself! But I hasten to add that this is not necessarily as a Virgin Queen scenario, although it could be. Rather, it may simply be the choice that allows Sansa the most autonomy and happiness in the changing world of Westeros, and she could still have many lovers as suited her needs. Sansa has grown so much throughout the series already, and has learnt to be self reliant and independent, that shipping her with herself isn't such a terrible prospect at all. I think the old Sansa has a lot to be proud of in her new self.

[Grail King]

I'd bet money that she did too. I don't believe that Elizabeth was really a Virgin, at all, but she was a master marketer.

Best typo ever, indeed. :lol:

Just caught it. :blushing:

FIXED!

[littlespider]

I remember reading a biography of Elizabeth that quoted her favourite Leicester's claim that she'd been saying she wouldn't marry since they were children. Losing her mother and later, when she was old enough to understand things better, getting a nice stepmother who was also beheaded must have made her wary, to put it lightly. As you say, at least Sansa has Ned and Cat as a positive example.

Elizabeth was also intelligent enough to have observed her sister's disastrous reign and marriage and learned from it. And it's arguable that she knew that bringing a husband into her situation would have screwed her reign because (1) political allegiances would be affected, most likely between nations and (2) she was 1000% more intelligent than any of these ambitious bootlickers (Leicester included, though being a knee-slapper he doubtless had his uses at one point) that fawned after her.

So, while she may have been messed up to an extent on relationships, marriage, and the like, by observing her parents, I think the more important aspect of her refusal to marry was her political acumen.

Hmm. She was also accused of treason. So is Sansa.

[Alexia]

Elizabeth was also intelligent enough to have observed her sister's disastrous reign and marriage and learned from it.

Didn't Mary's marriage screw up her reign because she tried to declare Phillip (?) the King of England as her husband, or something like that, in addition to his kingship in Spain? And then there was her attempts at forcing Catholicism back on England...

Was the marriage itself the problem, or the greater religious issues and the amount of power she gave her husband?

Just caught it. :blushing:

FIXED!

NOOO!!! It should have remained for posterity!

[Grail King]

NO, I don't like to embarrass myself for posterity, my kids do that enough thank you very much. :drunk:

But still listed under littlespider.

[littlespider]

Didn't Mary's marriage screw up her reign because she tried to declare Phillip (?) the King of England as her husband, or something like that, in addition to his kingship in Spain? And then there was her attempts at forcing Catholicism back on England...

Was the marriage itself the problem, or the greater religious issues and the amount of power she gave her husband?

Yes and yes. The sad fact is (and this seems to be true for Westeros as well) is that these royal marriages rarely can be separated from the politics that produce them.

[1234567]

Mary's marriage also suffered from repeated failed pregnancies and that her husband began to take an interest in Elizabeth (she reminds me of Lysa in this).

Sansa has had her romantic dreams crushed, but also her dreams about the South. It was the fairytale courtly land that she aspired to go to, that turned completely sour. She has been badly treated and manipulated by Southorners. She may come to think that while the courts and castles and people of the South are game players, while the environment she grew up with had better people in it. I do think it is telling that she fantasizes about Sandor, who looks more like a first man than an Andal.

She may have had her dreams about the South crushed but she may instead realize there is more to offer in the North. Including the possibility of love fir it's own sake.

[Miryana]

Both Mary I in England and Mary Stuart in Scotland had trouble because of their husbands. Mary I wanted to give her husband more power than the English would accept, and Mary Stuart had one husband she realised too late was too stupid to be made king and another who had too much power over her. Since Elizabeth had to prove she could rule well despite being a woman, it's no wonder marriage was a risk she wasn't willing to take when you consider what the other female monarchs of the island had faced or were facing; at least it later worked out for Victoria and Albert.

I would like to see Sansa happily married not just because she likes romance and children, but because this is a feudal setting and I would like her to also "win" at the game by having heirs. If Edmure were to be killed in revenge for the likely Stoneheart-led massacre of Freys and Lannisters at Riverrun, I wouldn't mind Sansa taking the Tully name and passing Riverrun on to her children.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't really want her with Highgarden either after what was done to her.

And Rickon will only become Lord if he is named such. Seeing the girls seize power would be immensely satisfying, especially if they refuse to turn power over to younger and less qualified siblings for no reason other than the presence of male sex organs, and if we got a Virgin Queen scenario Rickon's children would be Sansa's heirs.

I'm not sure that the girls would be able to successfully hold lordship of various domains when they have living brothers - except for Dorne - Westeros is still very backward in that regard. Also, Winter is here; and physical strength and warrior skills will be sought after in lords - Sansa may have the heart of a wolf, but she does have the body of a young woman who is not a warrior. (Arya might be thought to be more desirable as a Lady of Winterfell than Sansa, it depends who gets there first with the most effective allies and personal charisma, I guess). Elizabeth I of England could serve as a focus for the military efforts to fight the Spanish Armada; but England was no longer strictly feudal at that point; and she didn't have to face a Fimbulwinter and waves of zombies poised to invade from Iceland or Scotland. And even Elizabeth waited her turn for the throne until after her younger brother and older sister had died.

I would like to see Sansa as a powerful woman, so no one can boss her around and bully or threaten her again, at least not successfully. I hope that GRRM lets her grow up to be someone who is both powerful and sane and compassionate when she can be.

[littlespider]

I'd love to see a political upheaval whose endgame involves inheritance and rulership based on birth order rather than gender. Think about all the women right now who are in a fine position of power to make this happen.

And speaking of Victoria and Albert: how's this for a potential development? Female rulers having their spouses as consorts rather than fellow rulers.

[Alexia]

I'm not sure that the girls would be able to successfully hold lordship of various domains when they have living brothers -

Then she can imprison Rickon in Winterfell and keep him out of the hands of any of the lords who would try to use him to take power away from her. :P

I really think that either she or Jon will have Winterfell in the end. The North wants a Stark, and she's a Stark and soon would be old enough to rule herself instead of being Manderly's puppet. If she's smart and plays her cards right, I think she could do it.

[Grail King]

Than you are having the Starks fight each other, I think they are level headed enough to choose if they have too.

[the Scorpion Knight]

2. Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff: I think when he first appeared everyone thought now here's a pretty good option for Sansa Stark! He's perfect on paper. True heir to the throne, but forced to grow up in exile. Given the best of educational opportunities, taught to value the smallfolk and see kingship as a duty, not a right. Good looking, age appropriate, and not married to his aunt as yet! What more could shippers want? Well, besides the incredible elephant in the room concerning Aegon's legitimacy, there's the issue that he's too much of a faitytale prince, destined to shine brightly, but to fade quickly. Sansa herself is wary of these type of men, and it's arguable that GRRM is too. Sansa's entire arc has been about learning not to trust in appearances, and if she ended up with Aegon, in my view I would wonder what that entire lesson was about.

I think when they'll meet (and they will) she'll have a minor freak out

mean seriously put Aegon, Robb and joffrey next to each other and the contrast and similarities are scary

[Lummel]

I think it's quite easy to imagine Sansa ruling the North, maybe at first as regent for Rickon or even in her own right.

We've got Alys Karstark as the dominant partner in a political marriage, Bear Island is ruled over by Mama Bear Mormont (well actually in the name of her youngest daughter at present), male heads of household are being thinned out by the war and should Dany land and rule as rightful Queen of Westeros there will be a prescendent from the very top of society.

If you want to get historical Sansa could play Bess of Hardwick to Dany's Queen Elizabeth I.

[Raksha the Demon]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery Raksha:

20 10 Two-Legged Sentient People With Whom I Do Not Ship Sansa Stark

1. Sandor Clegane: A controversial choice for many many valid reasons. The Hound is not what any one would consider an ideal candidate for a young girl as innocent, and mild-mannered as Sansa Stark. But there is an undeniable "something" between them. Call it chemistry, fatal attraction, perving, whatever you like. There is something about Sandor that does not frighten Sansa, and she is more open and frank with him than anyone else would dare to be (well, besides Arya). He seems to appreciate her essential goodness, despite mocking it, and GRRM has invested some serious suggestive foreshadowing in their relationship. Who knows what will happen, but the point is that it very well could.

2. Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff: I think when he first appeared everyone thought now here's a pretty good option for Sansa Stark! He's perfect on paper. True heir to the throne, but forced to grow up in exile. Given the best of educational opportunities, taught to value the smallfolk and see kingship as a duty, not a right. Good looking, age appropriate, and not married to his aunt as yet! What more could shippers want? Well, besides the incredible elephant in the room concerning Aegon's legitimacy, there's the issue that he's too much of a faitytale prince, destined to shine brightly, but to fade quickly. Sansa herself is wary of these type of men, and it's arguable that GRRM is too. Sansa's entire arc has been about learning not to trust in appearances, and if she ended up with Aegon, in my view I would wonder what that entire lesson was about.

3. Harry the Heir: This is the guy that LF has offered to Sansa, and if that alone isn't enough to make us suspicious, he's also the father of two bastards already. He may be a perfectly nice guy, but the hints of wild behaviour and certain ambition do not inspire much confidence. I would hope that Sansa is able to avoid this one.

4. Edric Storm: A chance for a do-over with Robert's real son. He might not carry the Baratheon name, but he does have the blood, and this would be a bittersweet marriage to honour the linkage between Baratheon and Stark Houses that was first envisioned by Robert and Ned. However, Edric is currently in Lys, and I don't see how he and Sansa would connect anyways.

5. Podrick Payne: Sweet, shy Pod, can't speak a clear sentence, but brave and trustworthy. Again, just going on pure qualities, he would make a sweet husband for any woman. However, I can't see Sansa ever thinking of him in a romantic way. She would value his kindness and sweetness, but she herself is becoming a lot more authoritative, and besides, Pod is too insignificant a character.

6. Sweetrobin: Yes, her cousin. It wouldn't be a love match - at least not on Sansa's part - but it would enable her to get free of LF's control and to have some power and influence over the Vale and potentially Riverrun. In time, when he grows up, Sweetrobin might even be a tolerable guy, not so spoilt and sickly as he is now.

7. Willas Tyrell: The "what could have been" option. Had it not been for LF, Sansa may indeed have married Willas and made a happy life with him. She had already come to terms with his physical disability, and she was prepared to be a good wife to him and make a happy home. And people think Sansa is shallow! Anyways, Willas will most likely marry Myrcella Baratheon now, and in retrospect, the Tyrells are the not the type of in-laws one wants.

8. Trystane Martell: I know you crossed him off your list, Raksha, but I still think they could make a good couple despite the heat and sand of Dorne. They could live in the Water gardens which sounds like a lovely palace and would undoubtedly suit Sansa's tastes and sensibilities. What little we know of Trystane he sounds quite nice and now that the planned union between him and Myrcella is off, he's a free agent.

9. Edric Dayne: Lord of Starfall, Dayne is both noble and age appropriate. He's also shown his courage and loyalty in battle as the squire to Beric Dondarrion. The only problem is that his whereabouts are currently unknown to readers. He may still be with the BWB now though, and Martin may be planning a re-emergence in TWOW.

10. Sansa Stark! The final ship is with Sansa herself! But I hasten to add that this is not necessarily as a Virgin Queen scenario, although it could be. Rather, it may simply be the choice that allows Sansa the most autonomy and happiness in the changing world of Westeros, and she could still have many lovers as suited her needs. Sansa has grown so much throughout the series already, and has learnt to be self reliant and independent, that shipping her with herself isn't such a terrible prospect at all. I think the old Sansa has a lot to be proud of in her new self.

I left many of these choices off my list because they are possibilities for Sansa-ships.

One could write a book, or at least many forum threads about the SanSan ship. As horrible as Sandor's intent was when he ambushed Sansa in her room, there is definitely a chemistry between them. She was able to gentle him; which perhaps gave Sansa, who was so isolated and helpless, a feeling of power over the viciousness of people like Gregor and Cersei and Joffrey. And Sandor always spoke truth to Sansa; which is more than most others in King's Landing did. I don't know if that means they should settle down to domesticated life later and produce Clegane Houndlings, but the Sansa/Sandor relationship cries out for resolution, continuance, or closure, in my opinion.

Sansa marrying SweetRobin would give her considerable power over the Vale, since I doubt that he would live to a ripe old age; but is he salvageable as a person; or would Sansa end up with Joffrey Lite? And could he give her healthy offspring, considering that little Robert is Sansa's first cousin and very physically frail?

I would love Sansa to become Queen of King's Landing via marriage to Aerys, if only to stick it to Cersei; but I don't think that Aerys is going to last long, as a king or a player. I could be wrong, though. They'd make a beautiful couple!

I don't blame Harry-the-Heir for siring two bastards; unless he took advantage of girls who might have otherwise refused his advances, or very young girls - we don't know much about him. As a very probable heir to Jon Arryn's fragile son, and a strong, handsome, young man, Harry might be a chick magnet, fending off girls left and right. Or he could be a potential Robert. We just don't know enough about him.

Ditto Willas Tyrell; at least he is supposedly scholarly, and also a dog breeder - which would make him my ideal man. But Sansa would certainly feel uncomfortable marrying into the Tyrells.

I crossed Trystane off my list mainly because I thought the engagement to Myrcella was still on (and I want it to be on, because I think it's the only chance Myrcella has to survive). Did Cersei or Kevan break off the betrothal? Trystane could be a great husband to Sansa; though Arianne will inherit the rule of Dorne, and her children after her, not Sansa's and Trystane's, if both ladies have children.

Both the young Edrics - Storm and Dayne - are possibilities for Sansa; but at the moment they're too far away.

I sooooooo want Podrick to be alive. We'd have to see if he eventually is able to talk to girls, particularly Sansa. She could do a lot worse; he could well be an awesome man when/if he grows up.

[Alexia]

Than you are having the Starks fight each other, I think they are level headed enough to choose if they have too.

The problem is that Rickon barely exists as a character. I would be sad to see her go toe-to-toe with Arya or Bran, both of whom I like. But we've never seen Rickon interact with Sansa and Rickon barely exists as a character. In fact, his sole purpose appears to be "future Lord of Winterfell" ahead of all the characters that we've become invested in. I don't like Jon, but I'd way rather see him as Lord of Winterfell than I would Rickon, simply because then I could get mad. Rickon... blah.

If he ends up being a plot device for his siblings characterization, when they cut him out of the succession, or something like that, this I can totally get behind. But as it is, I see no reason to support Rickon for Lord of Winterfell at all -- especially given that it looks like he'll just end up as Manderly's pawn.

Actually, I support Rickon becoming a savage cannibal in the wilds of Skagos. But not as Lord of Winterfell.