NBA 2011-2012 Season

[Arakasi]

Rubio for me. He is a better defender than Irving because of his size. I think Irving will always be the better scorer, but in the long run I'd take Rubio if only slightly.

And while Caliban is coming off as sort of a tool here, Lin is by no means a MVP candidate or anywhere close to being on any best guard list. The guy is averaging over 6 turnovers a game. It's a great story no doubt, but if he wasn't in NY or he was black it wouldn't be as big a deal. (I think basketball like boxing has the same sort of "big white hope" thing going with it. Although in this case its more like "big not black hope" which is kinda sad, but thats how it goes.)

[Minaku]

Well, I haven't said he's going to be MVP or anything. I think he's talented. I think he needs more work. I like his potential, and I love that he's on the Knicks. That good enough?

Here's a nice article from the NYT on Lin. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/sports/basketball/the-evolution-of-jeremy-lin-as-a-point-guard.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all

[Howdyphillip]

I have a very intersting question. If you were able to choose from one of these 4 young PGs, who will you choose?

1-Kyrie Irving

2-John Wall

3-Ricky Rubio

4-Jeremy Lin

I think that Lin has tremendous upside. He has the potential to be a MVP one day if he can learn to hang on the ball. After that, Irving would be hard to pass up. The other two are really nice players, but I don't think they will be anything more than good players

[Ashkan Stark]

Well Rubio's is a pass-first player and he is pretty good in passing but when you don't put fear in D with your range from 3pt line or with attacking the rim, you are not a complete player. In terms of ball handling, Court vision and IQ it is very hard to say which one is better but I want to yell you about another big factor which is leadership. You can see it in Kyrie's eyes that he is a leader. In his first year in Cleveland he is now the leader of his team and the Cavs are very better that what most people expected.

There are lots of articles about Kyrie's rookie season that is better than CP3 and LBJ, you can read a few on ESPN.

Lin is playing well on Knicks roster and I think it is because of coach D'Antoni's system. And the turn overs problem, man it is a very big hole in Lin's game. in the game against Heat you saw the direct harm of that.

John Wall is a great player but he is not a great leader like Kyrie. Wizards team is very better than Cavs but look at them with Wall and look at Cavs with rookie Kyrie.

[Biter]

Wizards team is very better than Cavs but look at them with Wall and look at Cavs with rookie Kyrie.

In what ways are the Wizards better, considering that they're 7-26 and the Cavs are 13-18?

[Ashkan Stark]

Just look at their roster. They have a good center, they have better options at SG with Nick Young and Crowford(Cavs has Parker and Thompson) Blatche is better than Jamiso. Lewis and Vasely and Booker are better overall than Gee, Omri C and Eyenga.

The only position that Cavs are better is at PG with Kyrie and Sessions against J.Wall.

That is how I see it.

Don't let me start on Timberwolves roster. They are very talented and very strong but they are only 17-17, but yeah their division is very strong and there is a lot of good teams in it

[Calibandar]

Arak

(I think basketball like boxing has the same sort of "big white hope" thing going with it. Although in this case its more like "big not black hope" which is kinda sad, but thats how it goes

I see what you mean, there is definitly that desire for non-blacks to break though in basketball though. Not sure how you extend that to boxing though, with the Klitschko brothers' dominance this last decade or so. It's not like there's any more need for a big white hope there is there?

[Caliban2]

I have a very intersting question. If you were able to choose from one of these 4 young PGs, who will you choose?

1-Kyrie Irving

2-John Wall

3-Ricky Rubio

4-Jeremy Lin

How am I the unreasonable one here? Irving has the potential to possibly become a top tier or best PG in the league. John Wall posesses tremendous physical skills and if properly developed could become a perenial all star. Rubio has been good but has done nothing to belong in the same comparison as Kyrie. Kyrie played like 10 college games and came into the NBA and is already the leader and star of a team challenging to make the playoffs. I expect Kyrie to be a perennial all star by the time be is Rubio's age and a legit MVP candidate by the time he is Lin's age. You have the list in order, and to be honest the discussion is a slap in Irving's face.

And you know whatever about Jeremy Lin. Like i said he seems like a good guy and none of this is his fault. Its just wierd to me you can build a hype machine on a 23 year old like this in about 10 games and have people actually take it seriously. I guess if you dont have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Like i said he seems like a good guy and none of this is his fault. Its just wierd to me you can build a hype machine on a 23 year old like this in about 10 games and have people actually take it seriously. I guess if you dont have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true.

Yet you want to crown Irving after a sampling size of what, 34 games?

[add-on]

I have a very intersting question. If you were able to choose from one of these 4 young PGs, who will you choose? 1-Kyrie Irving 2-John Wall 3-Ricky Rubio 4-Jeremy Lin

I would take Irving by a hair over Rubio. Love them both. The other guys aren't in the same league for me right now.

I'm curious why you think Irving is a better leader than Rubio.

I guess I'm not totally sold on Irving being a better leader than Rubio. I think they both have great leadership qualities. But the argument is likely that Rubio has Love and a couple other veteran guards to help him lead in Ridnour and Barea, whereas the only player who could have helped Irving shoulder the load (Andy Varejao) is once again sitting with injury.

I would also take Rubio. Scoring is not particularly important for a point guard.

I think 'not particularly important' is a little strong. Maybe scoring isn't the essential characteristic of a good point guard, but players like Rose, Westbrook, D Will, Paul, Nash, Ty Lawson and Tony Parker have shown that being a point guard who can score at will is hugely beneficial to a team.

So I think your point is overstated.

Also, for as little as Rubio is scoring, he's doing it pretty inefficiently. 37.5% from the field with a true shooting percentage of 49.4 which is tied for 46th out 61 point guards who have registered enough playing time for Hollinger's interns to track their stats.

Then again, that puts Rubio right about on par with what Jason Kidd was doing his rookie year, so take that last point with however much salt you usually put on your tater tots.

Before I move on, one situation I would definitely take Irving over Rubio is in crunch time. Irving has already proven he can hit a shot with the game on the line. That takes a lot of confidence. Confidence that you have in yourself and confidence that your teammates and coaching staff have in you.

Conversely, in the T-Wolves last game against the Jazz, Adelman had Ridnour and Barea in when the game was on the line instead of Rubio. If you can't count on your star to get you a bucket when it matters, is that really the guy you want to build your team around?

Well, I haven't said he's going to be MVP or anything. I think he's talented. I think he needs more work. I like his potential, and I love that he's on the Knicks. That good enough?

I think Arak's MVP comment was more directed at Howdyphillip, who has now said that twice in this thread. I think what you said is fair.

I think that Lin has tremendous upside. He has the potential to be a MVP one day if he can learn to hang on the ball.

You sir, are just plain out of control with this nonsense. We've seen Lin play twelve games. Only twelve. Declaring anyone a potential MVP after a sample size that small is a bit ridiculous, but here are some other reasons to not get so caught up with Linsanity.

The system. D'Antoni's offense is built to make point guards look great. Raymond Felton was an All-Star last year. Ask Triskele how that's working out.

The schedule. Out of Lin's 12 games, only 4 of them have come against teams with winning records and one of those games was against a listless, injured Hawks squad. Out of Lin's 12 games, 8 of them have taken place at home in front of some of the best basketball fans in the country (it hurt me to type that).

Injuries. Well documented, Lin started this run without Melo and STAT. That has helped him to log the 5th highest usage rate in the NBA. For context, that means Lin has been using a higher percentage of his team's possessions than Derrick Rose or Kevin Durant. With Melo and Stoudemire returning at full strength, Lin will see that percentage shrink. That doesn't mean he won't continue to impact the game and be a good player, but it does mean his stats will likely decrease considerably.

Those three factors combined to make the perfect opportunity for Jeremy Lin to blow up the way he did. Obviously, he couldn't have done it without some talent, but as the season goes on the second two factors will cease to work so favorably for him and Lin will regress to the mean.

I watched Wall play a lot of games in college, and he seemed like a can't-miss pro. How is he doing?

Sebastian Pruitti from Grantland has had a couple of good articles outlining Wall's struggles as a pro. Basically, Wall seems hell-bent on proving to everyone that he has a jumper when it's pretty clear he hasn't developed that part of his game yet. He takes an inordinate amount of jumpers when dribbling off screens when he should be driving to the basket, where he excels. Conclusion seems to be that Wall is still a freak athlete who has yet to figure out how to best use his skills at the NBA level.

Also, I think Wall's lack of development has a lot to do on where he ended up being drafted. More on that below.

Just look at their roster. They have a good center, they have better options at SG with Nick Young and Crowford(Cavs has Parker and Thompson) Blatche is better than Jamiso. Lewis and Vasely and Booker are better overall than Gee, Omri C and Eyenga. The only position that Cavs are better is at PG with Kyrie and Sessions against J.Wall. That is how I see it.

Either this is sort of disingenuous or you are unaware that talent is only one of the things that matter. On paper, the Wizards should be one of the most exciting teams in the league. But they're not. Blatche is probably the worst offender. He's selfish, inefficient, and a huge distraction with his bad attitude. JaVale McGee is a well-meaning moron who loves his mother. Crawford and Young are black holes that need a ton of shots to get their points. Lewis is largely washed up.

It is pretty harsh to blame Wall for his team's failure. Vesely, Booker and Singleton are all potential bright spots, but it's hard to know with all the shit Washington still needs to get rid of to free up minutes for them.

And let's not forget the coach. Until a little while ago, Wall had to deal with Flip Saunders as his coach. I don't really blame Saunders for his failure. He was never meant to coach that team. Look at his track record. The KG-Sprewell-Cassell T-Wolves. The post Larry Brown Pistons. The man does well with veterans. He was brought to the Wizards when they had a decent enough veteran core of Arenas-Butler-Jamison. That fell apart and it was pretty clear that Saunders was out of his depth with the new young players. He should have been let go at least a year before he was.

Which brings me back to the four young guards. I think it was Chad Ford who said in a chat recently that one of the most important things that determines how great a player can be is the coach and system he ends up with. Look at these four. Adelman and Rubio is a dream matchup. So is Lin with D'Antoni. Even Irving and Scott is pretty good. Byron Scott did some great things with Chris Paul before CP3 outgrew his authoritarian ways.

Wall can still develop into a great player, but the Wizards need to clear out the shit and bring in a coach whose system can play to Wall's strengths.

[Caliban2]

Yet you want to crown Irving after a sampling size of what, 34 games?

Not even remotely similiar. Kyrie was a Mcdonalds all american with all the tangible and intangibles you could ask for as a 16 year old. Was the star of the US junior national teams and a top 3 college recuit in his class. Was backing up the hype before injury. He was the concensus #1 NBA prospect and taken top overall. He is currently exceeding those expectations. He is 19.

I think some people need to look at these things with greater nuance. Irving has a lifeitime of sample size. To get to the place many are on Jeremy Lin, you must ignore literally everything he has ever done until two weeks ago, and even then ignore many peripheral metrics and poor performances. I understand most people are able to couch that in "he was never given a chance", which is an absurd argument because true talents like John Wall, Derrick Rose or guys like Lamar Odom have overcome institutialized pressures, barriers and obstacles that most people cant even fathom.

Jeremy Lin played 4 years of high school ball, AAU ball, college ball and now two years of pro ball. To think he belongs in a group with #1 recruit #1 picks like Wall and Irving, or Rubio (international superstar for 5 years), you have to get swept off your feet by a polished media narrative, ignore years of information, and selectively weight only about 8 games of play.

[Slurktan]

I think 'not particularly important' is a little strong. Maybe scoring isn't the essential characteristic of a good point guard, but players like Rose, Westbrook, D Will, Paul, Nash, Ty Lawson and Tony Parker have shown that being a point guard who can score at will is hugely beneficial to a team.

So I think your point is overstated.

Meh. I just think the chances are very low that a team will win it all with a scoring PG who is their leader. That just doesn't happen. Whereas a PG who is a better passer has won many, many times. Simple choice at that point.

[Ashkan Stark]

@ add-on

Dude I agree with everything you said specially about Kyrie at crunch time and him being an All-Star.

about Washington's coaching system I agree that their system is not good and they need a better coach but I still think their overall roster is better than Cavs.

I think media has a major role on popularity of Rubio and Lin. Rubio and all those incredible assists, Lin and the hype after that sven game wining streak... media like ESPN,TNT and NBA TV likes to use these kind of stuff to bring more casual fans to the NBA. So IMO they pay more attention to those guys(like the thing that we see on Blake Griffin but not on Kevin Love) because they can gain more with the hype around them and they don't focus on Irving.

@Slurktan

Kyrie is a great passer but the thing is that Cavs right now need more points from him not assists. Maybe with a better team next year he does both parts better. In basketball at the end of the day you have to score to win, it is a lot better when everyone on the court specially your PG can score.

[Analu]

Of course Lin is overhyped. Even Lin would probably admit that he is. Who cares? He's still made more of an impact on the NBA this season than anyone in bringing in new (and old) fans, and is a great story that translates into any sport.

But of course the haters will come slinking out every time he has a bad game, crowing about how they were right all along. Whatever

[Caliban2]

Also, I mean no disrespect about Lin. I said "he sucks" but thats within the context of this discussion, Lin sucks compared to an actual MVP candidate, there is no debate about that. That said, I am not discounting the improbability of achieving the level of success he has. To make an NBA roster at 6'3 means you are extremely gifted, an extremely hard worker, and possess an incredibly rare combination of will, toughness and heart. Lin is in the company of athletic freaks and has shown he belongs. Like I said earlier, if you are searching for some source of ethnic pride, his basketball success and the way he comports himself in my opinion qualifies him.

As a person who dislikes crafted media narratives, i'll forcely mock this one. Linsanity is a commercial product. The same people who buy a branded product for twice the cost of the private label option of the exact same composition, will probably buy that Lin is a great player.

[Howdyphillip]

One of the games that I saw that Lin won was against a full strength world champion Maverick team that was on a 7 game win streak. He is an incredible talent. Three games in the NBA may be a fluke, but you don't do what Lin has done without being the real deal. I never said that he should be MVP. I only said that he has the potential to get there. Especially in Dantoni's system. You know, the same system that allowed a little white guy who could pass and shoot to win two.

[The Imp's Advocate]

I don't think anyone actually considers him a viable MVP candidate (right now), especially because he seems to be regressing back towards the mean.

But why do you think this is overblown hype?

He's the savior of the New York Knicks, the team in the biggest market with the most passionate fans. He genuinely turned their season around. OF COURSE they're going to make a fuss, and deservedly so. Not only that, but he came out of nowhere, from freakin' Harvard, and he's Asian-American. Lin's tapping into a big, under-utilized market. The importance of Lin isn't just his race, but his experiences. Other Asian-Americans can identify with Lin much more than they could with Yao, because Yao didn't grow up in America.

Sure, he's not the best point guard in the league right now. But there are lots of layers to this story, it's not just a "

crafted media narrative"

[Caliban2]

If you think Lin is a great story, you are right. If you think Lin is a great basketball NBA player, you are wrong. America only has the capacity to handle one or two things at the same time. Lin is currently that thing. However, America has a short attention span. The story will be over soon, and the mediocre basketball player will be all thats left. I am sorry.

[The Imp's Advocate]

It's a great story.

And he has the potential to be a great basketball player. At the very least a good role-player. Right now he's a fun, exciting, and surprisingly effective guy with some flaws in his game. I look forward to seeing what he becomes.

[add-on]

Meh. I just think the chances are very low that a team will win it all with a scoring PG who is their leader. That just doesn't happen. Whereas a PG who is a better passer has won many, many times. Simple choice at that point.

I guess that's fair, but 1) Isiah Thomas and 2) the game has changed. The new rules that favor offense make it easier for athletic scoring point guards to have a greater impact on the game.

One of the games that I saw that Lin won was against a full strength world champion Maverick team that was on a 7 game win streak.

Full strength world champion is a bit of an exaggeration. The Mavericks lost their best defensive player in Tyson Chandler, an important bench player in Barea and one of their better wing defenders in DeShawn Stevenson in the offseason. I only mention all that, because it's a bit dishonest to say the Knicks beat a full strength world champion team, when that team lost three key players and failed to replace them with anything of substance (Odom has been shit.), but it doesn't really matter because that's still only one game.

He is an incredible talent. Three games in the NBA may be a fluke, but you don't do what Lin has done without being the real deal.

I just think you and I have different definitions of 'the real deal.' I, too, think he is the real deal. Only, when I say that, I mean that he has enough talent to stay in the league for a number of years and contribute positively to whatever team he's on.

To say he has MVP level potential is a fucking joke. Even getting to the All-Star game will be difficult for Lin based on who he'll have to bypass. Guys like Rose, D Will, and Rondo. You know, guys who have performed at a high level in the NBA for years, not days.

I never said that he should be MVP. I only said that he has the potential to get there.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't help you.

Especially in Dantoni's system. You know, the same system that allowed a little white guy who could pass and shoot to win two.

The obvious (repeat: fucking obvious) difference is that Nash was already an All-Star when he joined D'Antoni's Suns in 2004, having first earned the honor a full three seasons before that.

Nash was already a great player. We barely know anything about Lin and you're comparing him to a first ballot hall of famer. You sound like an idiot.