NBA 2011-2012 Season

[Slurktan]

One of the games that I saw that Lin won was against a full strength world champion Maverick team that was on a 7 game win streak. He is an incredible talent. Three games in the NBA may be a fluke, but you don't do what Lin has done without being the real deal. I never said that he should be MVP. I only said that he has the potential to get there. Especially in Dantoni's system. You know, the same system that allowed a little white guy who could pass and shoot to win two.

Are you seriously comparing Lin to Steve Nash? Are you fucking high?

I guess that's fair, but 1) Isiah Thomas and 2) the game has changed. The new rules that favor offense make it easier for athletic scoring point guards to have a greater impact on the game.

The Pistons won because of defense, Isiah only scored 19 a game. Yes he was their top scorer though but there is always one exception to the rule. the rules have been changed for almost a decade and yet still no scoring PG has won it.

[Caliban2]

The Pistons won because of defense, Isiah only scored 19 a game. Yes he was their top scorer though but there is always one exception to the rule. the rules have been changed for almost a decade and yet still no scoring PG has won it.

Your logic makes no sense. So because Derek Fisher is terrible you have to have a terrible point guard to win a title? Tony Parker is a scoring PG. And for that matter what conventional stockton type point guard has been winning NBA titles?

[Arakasi]

Arak

I see what you mean, there is definitly that desire for non-blacks to break though in basketball though. Not sure how you extend that to boxing though, with the Klitschko brothers' dominance this last decade or so. It's not like there's any more need for a big white hope there is there?

True that that the Klitschkos have broken that to a good extent, but heck there is a long thread going throughout Boxing history of looking for the next great white fighter. Just look at the Rocky movies and what fame they drew.

As for Lin, remember he is playing in an extremely PG friendly system. Give Wall, Irving or Rubio that much freedom to move around and shoot and I'm sure they'd put up comparable if not superior numbers to Lin.

[add-on]

He's the savior of the New York Knicks, the team in the biggest market with the most passionate fans.

And here we have the part of the narrative that actually pisses me off. I get that it's a huge city and the fans are great. I get that Knick fans have had nothing to cheer about since Grandmama and Allan Houston. But lots of places have passionate fans. Lots of cities have great fans. Lots of cities have had to endure long stretches of futility. You are not the only thing that's real. Shut the fuck up and stop throwing fucking superlatives around.

It is annoying.

The Pistons won because of defense, Isiah only scored 19 a game. Yes he was their top scorer though but there is always one exception to the rule. the rules have been changed for almost a decade and yet still no scoring PG has won it.

Maybe so. But now we're in something of a golden age. 3 of the 4 teams with the best chance to win a championship this year (IMO, obviously) are being at least co-lead by scoring point guards. Those teams being the Thunder, Bulls, Spurs and Heat.

[Arakasi]

Rubio's problem as David Thorpe has pointed out is his shooting. It is extremely inconsistent because he doesn't have a repeatable delivery and form down. He needs to fix that to be an end of game threat, but as a 6'5" shooter going against PGs who will on average be much shorter than him, I don't doubt he will improve that aspect of his game. The rest of his game from his passing ability to his defensive ability are already great, he just needs to spend a lot of time in the gym this summer working on his shooting mechanics.

[add-on]

Rubio's problem as David Thorpe has pointed out is his shooting. It is extremely inconsistent because he doesn't have a repeatable delivery and form down. He needs to fix that to be an end of game threat, but as a 6'5" shooter going against PGs who will on average be much shorter than him, I don't doubt he will improve that aspect of his game. The rest of his game from his passing ability to his defensive ability are already great, he just needs to spend a lot of time in the gym this summer working on his shooting mechanics.

First off, he's totally 6'4". Why must you exaggerate?

Second, his shooting was also the major knock against him 2 or 3 years ago when he entered the draft. It's been a consistent problem and one that he has consistently not handled. Sometimes it isn't that easy.

Also, I think you're overstating his defensive ability as he lacks the quickness to stay with the more athletic point guards that are currently in the process of overrunning the league.

[Arakasi]

Okay only 6'4". I also think that where he was playing there wasn't so much a need to work on that part of his game. I think he can work on it more now. Well he'll have to.

I think while yes he might have some issues against the Rose/Westbrook types, he does have some advantages in how much length he has as a defender due to his size. And if that gets to be a problem they can just have him guard other team's SG and get an athletic SG in who can guard PGs. Unlike most other PGs he actually has the size to defend SGs.

[add-on]

I think while yes he might have some issues against the Rose/Westbrook types, he does have some advantages in how much length he has as a defender due to his size. And if that gets to be a problem they can just have him guard other team's SG and get an athletic SG in who can guard PGs. Unlike most other PGs he actually has the size to defend SGs.

Yeah, I got to watch D Rose torch him in person at the Target Center earlier this year, so guarding 2's might be a better option for Rubio. Then again, he is one skinny motherfucker at this point, so that 2-guard is just as likely to take him into the post and obliterate him. I...I just don't think his defense is that much of a strength.

[Arakasi]

He's second in the league in steals already. The guy has good instincts and length. He needs to work on his speed (to guard quick PGs) or his strength (to guard SGs) but I think he has the physical tools and basketball IQ to do it. It's still his first season and usually it takes a couple years for players to blossom as defenders.

[add-on]

He's second in the league in steals already. The guy has good instincts and length. He needs to work on his speed (to guard quick PGs) or his strength (to guard SGs) but I think he has the physical tools and basketball IQ to do it. It's still his first season and usually it takes a couple years for players to blossom as defenders.

Yes, and last year Monta Ellis was third in the league in steals. The year before that, Monta Ellis was second in the league in steals. Nobody's putting him on any NBA All-Defense teams and they shouldn't. Good instincts and a willingness to jump passing lanes don't always make great defenders.

[Howdyphillip]

Are you seriously comparing Lin to Steve Nash? Are you fucking high?

I promise you that I have watched more games Steve Nash has played than you... Unless you are his family or something. The skill sets are incredibly similar between Lin and Nash. Of course Lin isn't there yet, but he has the potential.

[BLU-RAY]

Gah, board just ate my huge post. Anyhow, Lin has some of the skillset of Nash. This post is about why considering him a potential MVP is insane.

In the '04/'05 and '05/'06 seasons (Nash's MVP seasons), the APG leaders included Nash (twice), Kidd (twice), Brevin Knight (twice, who the fuck is Brevin Knight?!), Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Baron Davis, and Stephon Marbury (!!). Nash had pretty much no competition for the title of "best point guard" (which you obviously have to be if you're going to win an MVP as a PG). When is Lin ever going to be the "best point guard" over Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Kyrie Irving, Ricky Rubio, John Wall, and (if he ever learns how to shoot a J) Rajon Rondo? Not going to happen.

Nash was considered pretty clearly the best player on those Suns teams. Can you really think Lin will ever be considered a more important Knick than Carmelo (or Amare, I guess)? Over the course of a full season? That seems super unlikely to me.

Finally, even if those were to occur, he'd still have to beat out LeBron, D-Wade, Kevin Durant, Kevin Love (down the road), Dwight Howard, and the various other random MVP candidates who come up in a random season.

Lin winning an MVP would probably require an airplane crash for the US Olympic team for two consecutive Olympics... and he'd still have to deal with Rubio.

ETA: Note: Lin is actually older than: Durant, Westbrook, Rose, Kyrie, Rubio, Wall, and Love.

[Slurktan]

I promise you that I have watched more games Steve Nash has played than you... Unless you are his family or something. The skill sets are incredibly similar between Lin and Nash. Of course Lin isn't there yet, but he has the potential.

That promise is based on what? How the fuck would you know how many games I've watched over Steve Nash's career? No the skill sets aren't "incredibly" similar. Why can I say that? Because Steve Nash has two hands. Until Jeremy Lin can learn to go left he can't compare to anyone great, period.

[Slurktan]

Your logic makes no sense. So because Derek Fisher is terrible you have to have a terrible point guard to win a title? Tony Parker is a scoring PG. And for that matter what conventional stockton type point guard has been winning NBA titles?

Derek Fischer was not relevant to the Laker titles. I didn't say you can't win without a mostly functional PG, which you clearly can given that the Lakers, Bulls and Spurs (pre Parker) all won titles. PG just isn't as key to championship NBA teams historically as say a scoring wing and bigs. And thus a Scoring PG is not something to build a championship team around.

Add on,

The Bulls are not a contender regardless of their regular season positioning. They won't ever win with their lack of shooting/inside play. Defense can only take you so far. Westbrook co-leads the Thunder in his mind at least. Definitely the Spurs at this point but we'll see how much TP gets the ball down the stretch if Ginobili is playing. I'd put the Lakers ahead of the Bulls certainly as they still have their size/Kobe.

[Young Wolf]

Actually D Fish has hit some really key shots for the Lakers in their many championship runs. .4 second shot over San Antonio...granted they lost to the Pistons that year. I'd put D Fish up there with Robert Horry in terms of hitting some really key shots but still a role player.

I get what you're saying Slurk, but he once was relevant.

[Sir Thursday]

I'm not sure I totally agree with some of the points add-on made against Rubio.

- For most of the season, Rubio has been finishing the games. At one point he had played the most 4th quarter minutes of any player in the NBA. So saying he's not clutch seems wrong to me. Here's one example of him making a big shot in crunch time:

(and I realise that that isn't the be all and end all of the argument, but it's at least some evidence in his favour).

- Last time I checked, Rubio had very good defensive stats. You may not rate steals as a good indicator of defensive prowess, but per Basketball Reference, Rubio's Defensive Rating (an estimate of points conceded to the player he is guarding per 100 possessions) is 100. In comparison, Kyrie Irving's Defensive Rating is 108. Rubio has long arms and is very good at hassling his man and poking the ball away. In the games I've seen him play, he has covered his man well and generally been very annoying on the defensive end.

I haven't seen enough of Irving to be able to make a complete comparison between the two, so I can't really say whether I'd take one or the other if I was starting a franchise, but I've got to say the attributes Rubio brings to the table match what I want from my PG. Outside shooting is a very useful tool and one that will take a PG over the top, but court vision to me is a more fundamental building block.

ST

[Ashkan Stark]

IMO Irving is an All-around basketball player but Rubio is not all-around. In Rising Stars Challenge Irving was very great and Kenny Smith said that he will be an All-Star player in the next 2 or 3 years. I think that shows what a great player Kyrie is. Rubio is very good but Irving is better.

@Sir Thursday :

Dude Kyire's court vision is as good as Rubio. He is a great passer but right now he gets less assists than Rubio because Cavs needs him to be a score-first kind of player. If Cavs get better next year(drafting a good SF and singing a good SG will help) you will see Kyrie's APG will rise and maybe even higher than Rubio. I think he will be an All-Star next year.

Comparing Nash and Lin is just stupid.

P.S: the combination of Kyrie and Wall will be great. Put Wall at PG and Kyrie at SG and they will give you a strong playoff team.

[Exa Inova]

Hai guys,

long time no see.

stop hatin' on the young buck, he is just excited.

and yes; Lin is no Nash and wont be. But also yes; Mike D'Antoni's philosopy is the (main?) reason Lin could/can blossem. Most other coaches would get fits over his to's.

And no, he wasnt overlooked, other teams just had players that better suited their needs, I mean, he got a chance to work out but was cut for various reasons.

But still, bottom line: Lin, enjoy! Few get a chance to shine in the bright lights of the Big Apple!

And another thing: whats this non sense: "To make an NBA roster at 6'3 means you are extremely gifted, an extremely hard worker, and possess an incredibly rare combination of will, toughness and heart."

At what point did 6'3 become a rarety in the NBA?

[Commodore]

wrong knee!

[Howdyphillip]

Comparing Nash and Lin is just stupid.

Care to elaborate a bit? Saying that is stupid without giving any reasons for you thoughts is a little vague.

I am not saying that Lin is better than Nash, only that they have a lot of things that are comparable. The question, was which rookie or sophomore PG you would take. I said Lin because his skill sets are an awful like Nash.

Nash is not the fastest player on the court, but he is one of the quickest in his moves the same can be said for Lin

Nash has an ability to find the open guy off the dribble and so does Lin

Nash has a killer three point shot, and so does Lin

Nash can take over a game on the scoreboard when he needs to, and Lin just gave us a good sample size that he can do the same.

If the question is who is the better basketball player and I answered Lin over Nash, that would be stupid. I would take Nash hands down right now because Lin needs to grow into his game, but to say that they are incomparable is a little short sighted in my opinion. What PG would you compare Lin to?