R+L=J v.18

[zmflavius]

I haven't read the predecessors of this thread but i wonder how R+L=J believers explain the fact that Jon looks more like Ned than any of Ned´s true born sons but has absolutely none of the distinctive Targaryen features. I know Lyanna was a Stark and it´s not that unusual to look very much like your uncle but if your father has silver hair and purple eyes you are bound to turn out not looking like "You have more of the north in you" then your half siblings whose mother is from a place down south while you have lineage from old valyria a totally different continent.

For a similar reason that Baelor Breakspear had coal-black hair, and looked nothing like a Targ.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I haven't read the predecessors of this thread but i wonder how R+L=J believers explain the fact that Jon looks more like Ned than any of Ned´s true born sons but has absolutely none of the distinctive Targaryen features. I know Lyanna was a Stark and it´s not that unusual to look very much like your uncle but if your father has silver hair and purple eyes you are bound to turn out not looking like "You have more of the north in you" then your half siblings whose mother is from a place down south while you have lineage from old valyria a totally different continent.

No actually you're not bound to turn out not looking like "you have more of the north" in you then your half-siblings, particularly when your potential father's family is dominated by ressessive features. The Targ look was completely obliterated from Rhaeyns - Rhaegar's daughter with Elia - and she entirely favored her mother's dornish coloring. Given that the Stark traits of dark hair and dark grey eyes are more dominant, it isn't a surprise that Rhaegar's features might have lost out again when it came to a child with Lyanna. Furthermore just because Ned and Lyanna were siblings didn't necessarily mean that their kids would necessarily get the same mix of dominant/resessive genes for their own coloring. Clearly Ned's northern genes won out in Arya, as she is the one who is always said to resemble Lyanna and Jon, just not with the other children, Catalyn clearly won the genetic lottery with the other kids. There was also no guarentee that Jon would actually only favor his mother's side so in that respect Ned got very lucky in that there was no question from looking at him that Jon was of Stark blood. But the fact that he resembles the Starks with no trace of Targ blood does not disqualify him in any way from potentially still being half-Targ.

[Ygrain]

I haven't read the predecessors of this thread but i wonder how R+L=J believers explain the fact that Jon looks more like Ned than any of Ned´s true born sons but has absolutely none of the distinctive Targaryen features. I know Lyanna was a Stark and it´s not that unusual to look very much like your uncle but if your father has silver hair and purple eyes you are bound to turn out not looking like "You have more of the north in you" then your half siblings whose mother is from a place down south while you have lineage from old valyria a totally different continent.

Our secretary has two daughters, the first is very much like her, the second looks none like her at all and took somewhat after the father. The RL apparently does not care what kids "should" look like.

As for Ned's family, the boys did take after Catelyn but you are leaving out Arya, with her distinct Stark looks - which, by the way, come down from lord Rickard.(long, stern face). So, if Jon=R+L, he took after his grandfather.

[Morte]

Beside Jon _does_ look different, he seem to be more slender, graceful and lean than the other Stark boys, so he might got that from Rhaegar?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Beside Jon _does_ look different, he seem to be more slender, graceful and lean than the other Stark boys, so he might got that from Rhaegar?

Good point. Again since I just picked up GOT to reread, I caught the Jon/Robb description by Bran in one of the first chapters and while Robb is always described has having a lot of pure strength, Jon is graceful and fast and that does sound more like Rhaegar. As does his personality, more quiet and refelctive than Robb (though that could also just be having been raised by Ned who is similar).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I haven't read the predecessors of this thread but i wonder how R+L=J believers explain the fact that Jon looks more like Ned than any of Ned´s true born sons but has absolutely none of the distinctive Targaryen features. I know Lyanna was a Stark and it´s not that unusual to look very much like your uncle but if your father has silver hair and purple eyes you are bound to turn out not looking like "You have more of the north in you" then your half siblings whose mother is from a place down south while you have lineage from old valyria a totally different continent.

Jon actually has the "Stark look," which Ned also shares. There's also a neat associative logic going on. Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya. Ergo Jon looks like Lyanna. Four out of Ned's five kids with Catelyn look very little like him and resemble the Tully line more. Doesn't mean they're not Ned's kids.

The Targ look — silvery hair with violet eyes — has largely been preserved through luck and incest. The Targs of this timeline — Rhaegar, Dany and Viserys — are the results of incest. But when an outside element, say from Dorne or the north, comes in, it's not unheard of for those outside genes to take precedence. Rhaenys and Baelor Breakspear had Dornish mothers, and favored their looks. Why couldn't Jon favor Lyanna? As someone else noted, it's possible that Jon did inherit some of Rhaegar's traits, like his build and some of his personality, that would not be as obvious as hair and eye color.

The question of genetics and phenotypes is also interesting when you look at the Blackfyre line. Daemon Blackfyre was a bastard, but had two Targ parents, Aegon IV and Daena. If the exiled Blackfyres married among themselves and/or married people from Essos with similar coloring, it would be very easy to pass off a Blackfyre as a Targ.

[corbon]

Also we know that after the ToJ Ned took Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn, to Starfall and gave it to Ashara Dayne, why would he do that if she was already at the ToJ???

He didn't give it to Ashara, he returned it to the Dayne family. Its the famiy heirloom sword, unique and thousands of years old. They only let extra special warriors from their own family use it and they get a title to go with the honour. Giving it to Ashara would have been ridiculous, though she may have been the recipient on behalf of her family.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He didn't give it to Ashara, he returned it to the Dayne family. Its the famiy heirloom sword, unique and thousands of years old. They only let extra special warriors from their own family use it and they get a title to go with the honour. Giving it to Ashara would have been ridiculous, though she may have been the recipient on behalf of her family.

I imagine that's what he meant, surely?

[Iron Captain]

I imagine that's what he meant, surely?

That's how I read it. It was returned to the family, but he gave it to her specifically because of 1) the connection they may have had 2) the great love she bore for her brother.

[Serie]

Giving it to Ashara would have been ridiculous

how come?

[Ghost714]

I haven't read the predecessors of this thread but i wonder how R+L=J believers explain the fact that Jon looks more like Ned than any of Ned´s true born sons but has absolutely none of the distinctive Targaryen features. I know Lyanna was a Stark and it´s not that unusual to look very much like your uncle but if your father has silver hair and purple eyes you are bound to turn out not looking like "You have more of the north in you" then your half siblings whose mother is from a place down south while you have lineage from old valyria a totally different continent.

This is to all the people who say Jon can't be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, because he doesn't have the "Targ look".

The hedge knight

Page # 23

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.

“It’s said he favors his mother,” the boy reminded him. “She was a Dornish princess.”

GRRM is basically smashing that argument, when he put that in The Hedge Knight.

So we defiantly know that the Targaryen look is not always dominant. So there is no reason why Jon can't have the "Stark look", and not really any of Rhaegar's... or the "Targ look" if you will.

Little side note.

In AGoT when describing Rob and Jon, Rob was said to be stronger and the slower of the two. Jon was said to be tall and long of lemb, and the faster of the two. Jon has also been said to be a Solemn kind of guy.

I don't know how much Merritt this could have, but Rhaegar was described as, tall and long of limb and he was said to be very solemn also. It could be nothing as far as proving Jon's parentage, or maybe Jon did get some of Rhaegars attributes to, and not only Lyanna's.

[Northern Soul]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum and am finding the immense amount of theory on Jon Snow's parentage pretty overwhelming. Even the explanations on the wiki site and other Westeros sites don't seem that clear cut.

Would anyone be able to either:

- Clearly and succinctly bullet point the evidence/possible reasons for R+L=J?

- Post a link to the post/thread with the best arguement for this theory? The definitive R+L=J post, if you will.

Would be massively appreciated, thanks.

[Ghost714]

I imagine that's what he meant, surely?

That is what I meant.

I wasn't saying he gave it to Ashara for her to keep. Ned had history with Ashara Dayne, it would make sense that Ned wanted to give it to her. Because I'm sure he also wanted Ashara to hear the news from him, about the Death of her brother. I can't see Ned being the type of guy to not deliver it to Ashara personally, had he given it to some cousin or uncle or something it would be a bitch move, it's like breaking up with a girl through text....that's just not something Ned would do. He would want to face Ashara himself and let her hear the news straight from the horses mouth. He owes her that much, given they almost had a kid together. Also Ashara was Arthur's sister, and probably the only one Ned knew out of the Dayne family on a personal level.

But no, I was not insinuating that Ned gave the sword (Dawn) to Ashara for her to personally keep, he gave it to her and she represented the Dayne family.

[zmflavius]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum and am finding the immense amount of theory on Jon Snow's parentage pretty overwhelming. Even the explanations on the wiki site and other Westeros sites don't seem that clear cut.

Would anyone be able to either:

- Clearly and succinctly bullet point the evidence/possible reasons for R+L=J?

- Post a link to the post/thread with the best arguement for this theory? The definitive R+L=J post, if you will.

Would be massively appreciated, thanks.

Here you go.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

[WhiteWolf26]

How does Ned know to find Lyanna in Dorne? Surely someone had to tip him off and that person would have knowledge of R+L's true relationship and maybe even that she is with child? That person is the key to unwrapping alot of unsaid information...that or a Howland Reed POV...

[Alia of the knife]

How does Ned know to find Lyanna in Dorne? Surely someone had to tip him off and that person would have knowledge of R+L's true relationship and maybe even that she is with child? That person is the key to unwrapping alot of unsaid information...that or a Howland Reed POV...

I imagine it was probably Ashara Dayne.

Since the TOJ was not on the map, and Summerhall would have been the first place people would look for them, it was maybe a Dayne family holding, or close to Starfall, so the Daynes, (especially as Arthur was Rhaegars best friend), took care of their needs, (i.e. supplies, midwife, etc).

In the end, with Lyanna not recovering, Arthur may have sent to Starfall for their Maester since it was critical now, and Ashara, (unbeknownst to her Brother), may have decided to tip Ned off.

If Lyanna was that bad off, out of her own love/regard for Ned, perhaps wanted to give him the chance to see her before she died, and of course, things spiraled out of control with Ned, (or Howland), killing her Brother.

It would be hard to be Ashara.

You love and are loyal to your Mistress, (Princess Elia), who is also part of the ruling house of your land, but your Brothers best friend is her Husband,(Prince Rhaegar), who is in love with the sister of the man you might happen to love too. :(

But, thats for another thread.

[Falrinn]

How does Ned know to find Lyanna in Dorne? Surely someone had to tip him off and that person would have knowledge of R+L's true relationship and maybe even that she is with child? That person is the key to unwrapping alot of unsaid information...that or a Howland Reed POV...

I imagine it wasn't all that difficult after Robert seized the Iron Throne. I'm sure there were at least a few people who knew Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy in Kings Landing, and at least one of them figured they might as well get in the new king's good books.

[Northern Soul]

Here you go.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

Thanks! I hadn't seen the Angelfire one before. It was really useful. I totally did not click this when reading on my own. It seems so obvious now!

I guess an argument not covered in the article is: what value does the revelation of Jon's parents add to the story?

If his parents are Ned and Ashara/Wylla I can't see it adding any real value at all. If it's R+L though...

This could create epic chaos if first some northern lords try to enact Robb's will and crown Jon as king in the north, then it's revealed that Jon is half-Targ and has a claim to the whole realm. Oh, and *then* he is revealed to be AAR.

That would be awesome.

After reading that article I'm basically pretty much convinced by it all, although in a way it's a shame that GRRM has wanted to make this a twist rather than just being straight about it as it makes Ned a more interesting and complex character.

As a side note I notice most of the evidence comes from AGOT, yet in the TV series there is none of this foreshadowing.

If they follow the same narrative path as the books the producers will have to shoehorn in some decent clues early enough so the audience don't feel cheated by the big reveal!

[WhiteWolf26]

I imagine it wasn't all that difficult after Robert seized the Iron Throne. I'm sure there were at least a few people who knew Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy in Kings Landing, and at least one of them figured they might as well get in the new king's good books.

People like who...? Varys? who was supposedly smuggling a Targ baby across the Narrow Sea to preserve the dragon kings? Or some highborn Dornishperson who just had one of their nobles raped and murdered along with her children? I agree that people in Westeros and especially KL are shady and capable of this but im looking for someone specifically. And if it was Ashara who squealed that would mean Ned was likely in Starfall before going to the ToJ or at least stopped searching long enough somewhere to communicate via raven. This would further prolong the timeframe of Ned lifting the siege of Storms End to when he finally gets to Lyanna. In all those discussions it was kind of assumed that he went directly from Storms End to the ToJ when this in fact could have taken days/weeks/possibly even a month or two? (long enough for Jon to be born before Robb)

[Ghost714]

I don't think Jon is older, but if he is I don't see what it changes, or why it matters. For all we know, Lyanna could have sent for Ned, knowing she would die, She needed him to take care of Jon, in her absence.

Im not saying that's how Ned knew where she was, but it might be a possibility.