Most Competent / Incompetent Characters

[Baitac]

Right because I'm sure you knew how to perfectly read and analyze people during incredibly tense and emotional situations at age 12.

There you go with your southron opinions. In this setting many of the pivotal characters are teens and pre-teens and they have acted with courage during stress. Senseless on the other hand lied to her father, stood against her sister, and basically murdered her direwolf

[Baitac]

You would think that if a girl is good hearted and doesn't know about the malice in the world, when confronted with an ugly reality, she would seek the guidance of her family over lying, a lie that she stuck with even when told that the wolf would pay with her life.

Clearly she learned a lesson about sticking with your family after that fiasco. Oh, I forgot! She didn't! Things were peachy at Kings Landing so when stupid daddy wanted his children to get the hell out Dodge, she stuck by the family again and ratted daddy out about his plans to the Queen. I swear, her actions were invaluable in things turning all Rains of Castamere for the Starks.

[Sigur]

Arrrrggh. Seeing so many people list Doran Martell as incompetent drives me insane.

The outcome of a plan does not dictate whether it was a good one or not. Given certain inputs and resources, you have to make a decision. Sometimes you are given the wrong inputs and what appears to be correct is not. The man is infinitely more patient than everyone around him, despite being in constant pain and likely near death. His hand hasn't quite been played yet either, so I'm not sure how he's to be judged right now anyway.

He kept Dorne completely out of the war that encompassed the rest of the continent and muses at whether having no dornish blood spilled is his 'greatest achievement or his greatest failure'. To even understand how it could be either shows a great level of competence, I think, even if he is not sure which one it is.

Not rushing off to war after Oberyn gets himself killed despite everyone around him losing their shit seems fairly competent to me as well.

He is able to resist the incredible pressure from those around him and make logical, future-minded decisions. He seems to be one of the more competent people in the series to me. Some may not think to put him on their competent list, but I just can't fathom labeling him as "incompetent".

[Evamitchelle]

The difference between Roberts bastards are the Great Bastards, is the latter were legitimized by the king, therefore, they did have just as much right to the throne as the trueborns.

Even without an official legitimization some of Robert's bastards could prove very dangerous for the Kingdom, especially one like Edric Storm who has two highborn parents and has been officially recognized by Robert as his son. For example if the Lords wanted to get rid of Tommen as King they could easily turn towards one of Robert's bastards (presumably the official one aka Edric) and use them to gain political power.

Arrrrggh. Seeing so many people list Doran Martell as incompetent drives me insane.

The outcome of a plan does not dictate whether it was a good one or not. Given certain inputs and resources, you have to make a decision. Sometimes you are given the wrong inputs and what appears to be correct is not. The man is infinitely more patient than everyone around him, despite being in constant pain and likely near death. His hand hasn't quite been played yet either, so I'm not sure how he's to be judged right now anyway.

He kept Dorne completely out of the war that encompassed the rest of the continent and muses at whether having no dornish blood spilled is his 'greatest achievement or his greatest failure'. To even understand how it could be either shows a great level of competence, I think, even if he is not sure which one it is.

Not rushing off to war after Oberyn gets himself killed despite everyone around him losing their shit seems fairly competent to me as well.

He is able to resist the incredible pressure from those around him and make logical, future-minded decisions. He seems to be one of the more competent people in the series to me. Some may not think to put him on their competent list, but I just can't fathom labeling him as "incompetent".

The way he handled the Arianne-Myrcella situation was pretty poor IMO. First by not telling her anything about his grand plan to marry her to Viserys (when she was 13 it was understandable, but at 23 it's just stupid) or why he's just proposing to marry her off to 80-year-old minor Lords like Walder Frey. Then when he hears about her plan to abscond with Myrcella he just lets her ride in the sunset for a few days when he could have just stopped her before she even left, which resulted in Myrcella's face being maimed.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Or as ser barristzan said:

doran martell hides his secrets a little bit too well.

but at least his enemies AREN'T EVEN AWARE of his plans and they aren't able to use his mistakes to their advantadge.

and this is IMHO worth a lot

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

We'll have to wait to be certain, but Marsh effectively signed his own fucking death warrant at the end of ADwD!

That's not a sign of incompetence. Marsh knew the consequences of his actions - in his mind, he was sacrificing his life and his honor "For the Watch!"

[Alexia]

There you go with your southron opinions. In this setting many of the pivotal characters are teens and pre-teens and they have acted with courage during stress. Senseless on the other hand lied to her father, stood against her sister, and basically murdered her direwolf

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Southron opinions... :rofl:

[littlespider]

Wait, so like, Sansa warged Ned when he went to kill Lady?

Bad. Ass.

[Skeksi]

I think Sansa definitely messed up in AGoT, and showed some very bad judgement, and to a certain extent, I don't think all that should be wiped out by the excuse of her age, when many other young characters act far more wisely, show better judgement, or, in some cases, get blamed for being absolute turds (see: Joffrey) despite their young age.

That said, however, I think she's definitely grown from that point. Over the series, she's learned to be a lot more careful about who she trusts, she's been developing her courtly skills to keep her alive in KL, etc. I wouldn't label her as one of the most incompetent in the series, definitely not, but there is, I think, an argument to be made for her being pretty incompetent in AGoT, from not learning from her earlier experiences in the book.

[Baitac]

Maybe I wouldn't have disliked Sansa as much if I had not been so emotionally invested in the Starks. I found that her actions were so egregious, and the repercussions so serious that I couldn't and haven't been able to get past it. The fact that her younger sister has been so incredible as a character and as a Stark hasn't helped me overcome my views. That being said, I agree that she is so very slowly maturing. Maybe she will stop being other people's pawn at some point.

[jblair]

How in 7 hells??.....

I think it might be a *bit* unfair to hold Renly responsible for not anticipating a sorcerous assassination. Take that away and he was nearly unstoppable at that point of the game.

Competent: The Blackfish, Osha, Asha Greyjoy, Doran Martell, Wyman Manderly, Bronn, Queen of Thorns, Roose Bolton, Brynden Rivers, Margaery Tyrell, Sandor

[Raksha the Demon]

Maybe I wouldn't have disliked Sansa as much if I had not been so emotionally invested in the Starks. I found that her actions were so egregious, and the repercussions so serious that I couldn't and haven't been able to get past it. The fact that her younger sister has been so incredible as a character and as a Stark hasn't helped me overcome my views. That being said, I agree that she is so very slowly maturing. Maybe she will stop being other people's pawn at some point.

At the age that Sansa is in AGOT, Arya may be less naive, but she also becomes a murderer; knowingly assassinating someone she did not personally know, someone who had not done anything to harm her. I don't think Arya has such an incredible character; she's an extremely troubled, angry little girl who has traded her developing Stark ethics for safety and the power of being able to kill people. I don't entirely blame her; Arya was very young, and was on the run, placed in terrible danger, with no one to give her proper moral guidance, for a long time. I don't consider her moral judgment to be mature; which is why she still gets a pass from me. If Arya is still assassinating people for money or the approval of her teachers at the age of 18 or 20, then I will write her off as a symbol of the tragedy of war.

But Sansa's actions in AGOT also get a pass from me. She did not realize that begging her future mother-in-law to help her stay with her betrothed because her father was planning to send her away would result in anything other than her being allowed to stay with Joffrey. I think Sansa would have done an end run around Ned if Catelyn was there; and begged Mommy to persuade Daddy to let her stay with the Boyfriend. Only her mother wasn't there. Who did Sansa look on as a mother-figure, a great lady and moral authority to be admired, to emulate? Her future husband's mother, who was also the queen and thus would have some standing with which to persuade Sansa's father to let Sansa stay with Joffrey.

Sansa was, of course, terribly wrong. She was also eleven years old, spoiled and sheltered. I blame Ned far more than Sansa; and of course; I blame Cersei and Joffrey and others even more. Why didn't Ned have a talk with Sansa after Lady's death, about the importance of family loyalty and speaking the truth? He knew she had lied about not remembering. They had what, three weeks on the road between Lady's death and the arrival in King's Landing? Ned didn't want to bother Sansa because she was depressed. I think Ned felt plenty guilty himself and couldn't bear to confront the situation by discussing it further with Sansa; but it needed discussing.

And why didn't Ned, knowing that Sansa was sulky and downright rebellious at the idea of leaving King's Landing and ending the betrothal with Joffrey, post Stark guards outside her door; to keep Lannisters out and Sansa in, and tell the Lannisters that she had a cold, until the hour of the girls' leaving. Furthermore, why the heck didn't Ned send both his daughters home after Cersei forced Robert to order Lady's death? Would you let your daughter marry the son of a woman who not only had a young boy slaughtered on flimsy evidence, but who made her suddenly spineless King-husband (once your best friend) have your daughter's pet, the one creature who had not been a party to the sorry incident, killed? You'd think that Ned would have figured out that King's Landing was no fit place for little Stark girls, and sent them home.

Of course, then much of the book might have been different. But as foolish as Sansa was, she was still a child when she made those huge errors in judgment; and Ned was an adult, and her father - he should have acted like it.

[puggini]

Very Competent: Tywin Lannister (Lord), Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Wyman Manderly, Bronn, Areo Hotah, Randyl Tarly, Euron Greyjoy

Mostly Competent: Ned Stark (Lord), Kevan Lannister, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Davos, Mance, Victarion Greyjoy, Sam, Aemon, Jeor Mormont, Jon Connington, Jojen and Meera Reed, Barristan Selmy

Neutral: Doran Martell, Stannis, Melissandre, Walder Frey (and other Freys), Balon Greyjoy, Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Roose Bolton, Mace Tyrell

Mostly Incompetent: Ned Stark (Hand), Brienne, Catylen, Lysa, Gregor, Sandor, Oberyn, Renly, Arianne Martell, Pycelle, Ramsay Snow

Very Incompetent: Tywin Lannister (Father), Quentyn, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, Viserys, Edmure, Joffrey

Doran Martell and Stannis are difficult to decide. Doran seems like he has a very cautious, planned approach to getting the Targaryens back on the throne, but his plan to pair with Daenerys went well... up in flames. His indecision to talk with his daughter Arianne might have directly led to Marcella getting maimed.

If you've ever played the boardgame Risk, Stannis seems to be the guy who gets crushed in the beginning of the game either by a mistake on his own part or by his own poor luck. You just can't seem to knock him out of the game, though. Often that guy comes back and wins the game by some miracle act of cunning. I feel like Stannis has been getting crushed too often in this series, and he's on the verge of a comeback.

[mediocre cheese]

If you've ever played the boardgame Risk, Stannis seems to be the guy who gets crushed in the beginning of the game either by a mistake on his own part or by his own poor luck. You just can't seem to knock him out of the game, though. Often that guy comes back and wins the game by some miracle act of cunning. I feel like Stannis has been getting crushed too often in this series, and he's on the verge of a comeback.

LOL I used to play risk with my fellow chess club members back in high school. Stannis is like the guy whose hanging on in Kamchatka after all his provinces have been taken, yet everyone forgets about him and soon he's building back up again. The problem is once a guy is down to 1 or 2 provinces it seems cruel to attack him rather than other players, in risk though, you have to go for the jugular. That way you can get their cards too.

[Baitac]

But Sansa's actions in AGOT also get a pass from me. She did not realize that begging her future mother-in-law to help her stay with her betrothed because her father was planning to send her away would result in anything other than her being allowed to stay with Joffrey. I think Sansa would have done an end run around Ned if Catelyn was there; and begged Mommy to persuade Daddy to let her stay with the Boyfriend. Only her mother wasn't there. Who did Sansa look on as a mother-figure, a great lady and moral authority to be admired, to emulate? Her future husband's mother, who was also the queen and thus would have some standing with which to persuade Sansa's father to let Sansa stay with Joffrey.

Sansa was, of course, terribly wrong. She was also eleven years old, spoiled and sheltered. I blame Ned far more than Sansa; and of course; I blame Cersei and Joffrey and others even more. Why didn't Ned have a talk with Sansa after Lady's death, about the importance of family loyalty and speaking the truth? He knew she had lied about not remembering. They had what, three weeks on the road between Lady's death and the arrival in King's Landing? Ned didn't want to bother Sansa because she was depressed. I think Ned felt plenty guilty himself and couldn't bear to confront the situation by discussing it further with Sansa; but it needed discussing.

And why didn't Ned, knowing that Sansa was sulky and downright rebellious at the idea of leaving King's Landing and ending the betrothal with Joffrey, post Stark guards outside her door; to keep Lannisters out and Sansa in, and tell the Lannisters that she had a cold, until the hour of the girls' leaving. Furthermore, why the heck didn't Ned send both his daughters home after Cersei forced Robert to order Lady's death? Would you let your daughter marry the son of a woman who not only had a young boy slaughtered on flimsy evidence, but who made her suddenly spineless King-husband (once your best friend) have your daughter's pet, the one creature who had not been a party to the sorry incident, killed? You'd think that Ned would have figured out that King's Landing was no fit place for little Stark girls, and sent them home.

You just helped me in disliking her more. You would think that family loyalty and telling the truth would be a given, especially after having Lady murdered and the slaughtered boy. You said it best. She wanted her boyfriend even though everyone but her knew he was a nutcase. She was a direct cause of her father's death by confirming what Cersei suspected. She is the very definition of incompetence!