Question about Loras + Renly scene

[Donnycarko]

My apologies if this doesn't warrant a thread, I wasn't sure if there was a "small questions" thread in this section.

In the Loras and Renly scene, Renly states that he is "fourth in line". Surely it is:

1. Joffrey

2. Tommen

3. Myrcella

4. Stannis

5. Renly?

Am I wrong about this? Does Myrcella come last, is Renly not counting Joffrey (since he is the immediate heir) or is it perhaps a goof?

[MaesterTotoro]

Myrcella can't inherit the throne, she is a woman. Only Dorne law permits female rulers.

[Anvik]

ADWD spoiler

I'm fairly sure females can inherit, as Cersei is now lady of the rock since jaime is KG and tyrion is attainted... plus i have this nagging feeling that maester aemon was offered the iron throne at one point passing over a legitimate female heir because she was a lackwit...

so, OP i think that was probably a goof, your list looks correct to me :)

[Prince Aegon VI]

Perhaps its just a case of Renly thinking he would make a better King than his older brother.

[DurararaFTW]

ADWD spoiler

I'm fairly sure females can inherit, as Cersei is now lady of the rock since jaime is KG and tyrion is attainted... plus i have this nagging feeling that maester aemon was offered the iron throne at one point passing over a legitimate female heir because she was a lackwit...

so, OP i think that was probably a goof, your list looks correct to me :)

Not the throne. There hasn't been a single Queen with consort in known Westerosi history, I checked.

[Buckwheat]

I believe that is a wilful change from the books. In the books, it is Joffrey>Tommen>Myrcella>Stannis>Shireen>Renly. In the series, they left out Myrcella and Shireen. I do not like it, it makes no sense and makes AFFC Myrcella-crowning plot nonsensical. Seven Kingdoms is no entail property.

[FanTasy]

Was there a scene in the novels where Renly could have said this to Loras?

Could it be the scene that was added for Season1?

If Renly said this line he could mean:

1. Robert

2. Stannis

3. Shireen

4. Renly

and I always suspected he knew the truth about Cersei's kids.

[Prince Aegon VI]

and I always suspected he knew the truth about Cersei's kids.

I love the theories that people come up with on here. Although if that were what he was thinking it would mean he was 3rd in line.

[DurararaFTW]

I believe that is a wilful change from the books. In the books, it is Joffrey>Tommen>Myrcella>Stannis>Shireen>Renly. In the series, they left out Myrcella and Shireen. I do not like it, it makes no sense and makes AFFC Myrcella-crowning plot nonsensical. Seven Kingdoms is no entail property.

Myrcella's crowning plot happens becaus she's in Dorne, where women can become monarch. This is repeadably mentioned.

[FanTasy]

I love the theories that people come up with on here. Although if that were what he was thinking it would mean he was 3rd in line.

Because of Shireen, yes. But Renly assumed Stannis would not let Shireen stay unmarried, I think. The laws of inheritance are fuzzy, but Stannis himself thinks Shireen can succeed him.

Edited because of possible spoiler for TWOW, sorry.

He said so in the gift chapter of TWOW.

[The GRRumbler]

Fantasy, in Stannis case it would be from the lack of any other male parents

, in Renlys case he would come after: Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, making him fourth in line. But lets say Stannis, Renly, Tommen and Joffrey died, then Myrcella would inherit.

But in Dorne, Myrcella would come right after Joffrey, because there is no prioritizing of males in the sucession line there.

[Anvik]

Myrcella's crowning plot happens becaus she's in Dorne, where women can become monarch. This is repeadably mentioned.

It's repeatably mentioned that Dorne goes only by age, not sex, so there is nothing saying that a woman can't 'rule' we have Lady Stokeworth, Lady Ermesande, Lady Whent and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head who are the heads of their houses in their own right because of lack of a male heir in the direct line.

[HyacinthGirl]

I think Renly is fourth, and that Myrcella could only inherit if there were no uncle contenders...

But then Asha seems to think she has more right to her father's throne than her 'nuncles', so I'm not sure.

[Lions-and-Roses]

I think it's because men are always before females. So it would go:

Joffrey

Tommen

Stannis

Renly

Myrcella

I think.

[Eucratides_Megas]

I'm pretty sure that Westerosi law concerning women inheriting the throne comes from the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenyra fought her brother for the throne after being groomed by her father to succeed. They specifically made sure women came last after all the male relatives. Dorne is the only kingdom in which that law doesn't apply.

[Padraig]

Always good to revert to the wiki.

Inheritance laws in Westeros are not clear-cut, and the customs of Dorne and possibly the Iron Islands are different from the other kingdoms. Outside Dorne, a man’s eldest son is his heir, followed by his second son, then his third son, and so on. In most cases, the youngest son is followed in the line of succession by the eldest daughter, after whom come her sisters in birth order^[11]. In Dorne, no distinction is made between sons and daughters, with children inheriting in order of birth regardless of gender^[11]. It is unclear whether women can inherit in their own right in the Iron Islands.

Variations may arise, particularly in relation to the place of daughters: though by law a daughter should inherit before her uncle or cousin^[12], a male relative may stake a claim and be judged a better choice to be heir^[13].

[Travex]

I'm pretty sure that Westerosi law concerning women inheriting the throne comes from the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenyra fought her brother for the throne after being groomed by her father to succeed. They specifically made sure women came last after all the male relatives. Dorne is the only kingdom in which that law doesn't apply.

This. Rules for the throne are different ever since the Dance of the Dragons. Cersei inherits the Rock over Kevan but Renly is technically correct in putting himself 4th in line (Joffrey > Tommen > Stannis > Renly). The rules get a bit murkier when the "main" family dies off though. Stannis seems to think Shireen would inherit his throne but then again they haven't mentioned the existence of any Baratheon cousins and whatnot.

[Paladinmesser]

I think I have found the answer to the rules about line of succession, from Clash of Kings Theon I;

 

“… I am heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands.”

“As to that,” his uncle said, “we shall see.”

The words were a slap in the face.” We shall see? My brothers are both dead. I am my lord father’s only living son.”

“Your sister lives.”

Asha, he thought, confounded. She was there years older than Theon, yet still… “ A woman may inherit only if there is no male heir in the direct line,” he insisted loudly. “I will not be cheated of my rights. I warn you.”

 

Renly being Roberts brother would, to me at least, put him in the “direct line”. As I see it the “direct line” is Joffrey>Tommen>Stanis>Renly  but I suppose it could be open to interpretation in Westeros.  

 

As to the question about Cersei being Lady of the Rock, post A Dance with Dragons, there are not many candidates for Lord of Casterly Rock. All of Tytos’ sons are dead, Jamie is in the kings guard and gave up his rights, Tyrion is a fugitive, Kevan’s eldest son Lancel joined the Warrior’s sons and gave up his rights, Willem is dead, Martyn is a squire and younger than Lancel who is 16ish in the books so he might be considered too young. Daven is a 3rd(?) cousin to Cersei so I’m not sure if he counts. Plus the fact they just wanted to get Cersei away from Tommen so Kevan and the council made her Lady of the Rock to get her out of their hair.

[Padraig]

Renly being Roberts brother would, to me at least, put him in the "direct line". As I see it the "direct line" is Joffrey>Tommen>Stanis>Renly

That's contradicted by what you quoted given that the Uncle inferred that Asha is before him in the line of succession.

But yes, the rules are unclear in Westeros. Or more like, they can be ignored.

[addie]

There is a clear answer to that in the beginning of Feast for Crows : women does not inherit unless there is no other male heirs, except in Dorne. Dorne kept its law when they were integrated to the seven Kingdoms by marriage.

In the Iron Islands, women can not inherit.

So, in GoT, the succession line is clearly : Joffrey> Tommen > Stannis > Renly and then, I guess, Myrcella and Shireen.

This works if you consider that Joffrey and Tommen are the rightfull heirs, of course.