Jump to content

What is evil?


Jojen

Recommended Posts

I'm certain this topic has been explored on the forums before, but I thought that since the TWOW chapter that GRRM gifted us with has raised a lot of discussion on just what is and who are evil in the series, it would be a good time to tackle it.

So, what is "evil" and what makes a person "evil"? I'm tempted to quote Yoda's famous line about fear being the path to the dark side, but let's try to address this without citing religion. I think we could agree that has to do with knowing right from wrong, but consistently choosing to do wrong anyway. Doing the "wrong" thing is often relative, but there are some things we can definitely say are wrong, such as slavery, rape, and murder.

I believe a good definition of evil is a pattern of behavior that treats people like objects, as tools to be used and discarded in order to serve someone's personal and selfish needs.

Based on that here is a brief and by no means exhaustive list of characters--in no particular order--that I consider to be evil (your candidates may vary):

(1) Jaime. He has repeatedly committed incest with his sister and attempted to murder Bran. That was evil. Yet he's recently turned a new leaf and so we begin to like him more.

(2) Tyrion. He murdered Shae, and also his father, who was no saint himself, but this was still evil. He is consumed by revenge and with becoming Lord of Casterly Rock. Yet we like him because he's witty, he was kind to Sansa, Bran, and Jon, and he's not as bad as the rest of his kin.

(3) The Hound. He's committed murder--maybe not on the scale of his brother--but we like him more than Gregor.

(4) Theon, for betraying the Starks and ordering the murder of two boys for his own greater glory. Yet we pity and almost like him because of his cruel treatment at the hands of the Boltons.

(5) Melisandre. She burns people to gain more power for herself. That's evil. We don't really like her, even if she was a slave once. Going along with it because it furthers your own ends (Stannis, #6) is also evil.

(7) Khal Drogo. He raped, murdered, and enslaved lots of people to serve his own ends. That was evil. Yet we liked him for killing Viserys and because he loved Dany.

(8) Dany. She allowed her brother to be murdered, burned Mirri Maz Duur alive, and had the Meereenese nobles crucified. That was evil.

(9) Littlefinger. Duh.

A less clear example is Robert Baratheon fathering multiple children out of wedlock (as did Cersei) and for generally disrespecting the sanctity of his marriage and flaunting it because it pleased him. However, Cersei's role in Robert's death was clearly an evil thing, as is allowing a monster like Gregor Clegane (#10, who is/was maybe the closest to being 100% Evil) to become an even bigger monster.

So who isn't evil? The ones that immediately come to mind are Ned, Davos, Brienne, the Stark children (including Arya), Tommen, Myrcella, Sam, Hodor....it's a much shorter list, but it basically includes those who have shown that they honestly care more about others than care about themselves, or are too young or simple to know any better.

I don't think that GRRM is a moral relativist. I think he has very clear ideas in mind as to what is evil, and may also be very surprised by how much we may like his bad guys, despite having manipulating our feelings towards them.

Edited to add that I'm aware that including Arya on my list of non-evil characters is going to get me in trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, talk about a big subject! Evil, what is it? Personally I have a lot of trouble with the word 'evil' and I find it incredibly difficult to define. To me, evil is almost a de-humanising word, it gives the bad things that humans do an almost sub-human or un-human quality. It almost negates the value of the word, like how the word 'love' is often overused so it loses it's value.

All of the people you have listed above are not evil to me. They are just human beings doing things wrong by their own choice. Which is a good enough definition for evil if you want it. But labeling them as 'evil' almost takes away their humanity and, in a way, that lessens the horror of the things they have done. Almost like making an excuse "Oh, it's not Jaime's fault he pushed Bran from a window, he's just evil". I don't think that is evil, I just think that is making a very selfish choice. Which again is a definition of evil if you want it. But it still troubles me, 'evil' almost negates the part of free-will, as if the person has no choice but to do something bad because it is in their nature and therefore is not their fault.

People like Gregor Clegane and Ramsey Bolton seem more like 'evil' to me, but again it is very hard for me to say, because I have such trouble with the word. These two guys seem to be psychopaths, literally. It is almost as if they actually don't have any free will, as if they are already pre-programed to be 'evil'. But then should we feel sorry for them? It's not their fault if they were actually born with something wrong with their brains. If it is impossible for you to choose to be good, are you evil? Or are you only evil when you have a choice to be good but you choose to do wrong instead? I honestly don't know, but I never actually use the word 'evil' in my day to day language because I simply don't know what it means!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jem, I'm not saying they did those things because they were evil, but that they're evil for doing those things. They weren't born evil. As I stated at the start, they choose to do evil things, and that's what makes them evil. That doesn't lessen the impact of what they've done, it makes it worse because they didn't have to do those things.

I do agree that, like love, the term does seem to have less value the more we use it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evil is the lack of desire of being responsible for the consequences of one's actions.

In that sense, it is also lack of wisdom, and above all, the lack of desire for wisdom.

Of your list, Jaime was certainly evil, but he has really come around in ASOS and AFFC. He may well no longer be.

Tyrion - no, I don't see him as evil. His killing of Tywin was long overdue, albeit tragic. Tywin was a cancer, almost as bad as Littlefinger. Quite literally a corruptor, and a very unrepenting corruptor while at that. While not to be taken lightly, his death was justified.

Killing Shae was more of a pure revenge thing, of course. But I still don't think it marks him as an evil person. More like one that is not above revenge.

Sandor? Are you kidding me? He is nearly a Paladin. Sandor has one of the most accurate, honest senses of moral values in Westeros entire. He has commited attrocities, for sure, but his defining characteristic is his relentless desire to overcome his own environmental influences in order to become a more dignified person. In that respect he overshadows even Davos.

Theon is fascinating. A textbook example of evil in its purest, most common form - the result of despair, ignorance and lack of proper emotional structure. Evil as an accident not properly prevented or remedied, if you will. There is hope for him still, but he certainly has a whole lot to atone for. Still, I wouldn't so much say that he is evil as that he has commited terrible attrocities in the recent past.

Melisandre is evil to the core. Stannis is actually worse, since he is so hypocritical.

Khal Drogo is more like a moral revolutionary than anything else. He is by no means evil, and in fact takes grievous risks to resist the moral shortcomings of the culture he is inserted in. While being prodded by Daenerys, true, but still.

Perhaps paradoxically, Daenerys herself is somewhat evil now. Losing Rhaego and Drogo really changed her. She is currently somewhat drunk with her power and careless with her recent choices. A wiser, better person would be more careful. Truth be told, the circunstances don't really help her - she is too much in evidence and can't afford to experiment a lot with less serious stakes.

Littlefinger is scum.

Robert... I just don't know about him. We don't have enough information about how exactly his early days with Cersei were. Bastardy, however, doesn't seem to be that terrible a thing in Westeros. It ruins one's social status, but too few people have any to begin with.

Cersei is evil, for similar reasons of those that apply to Theon, although they are more solidly placed in her case. Like most evil people, she just doesn't know how to deal healthily with the pressure she suffered since she was young.

Lysa Arryn, and to an even greater extent Gregor Clegane, climb and perhaps cross that line between being evil and just being plain unbalanced. Both are clearly evil because they cause damage to others as a matter of course, but it is unclear how much of a choice they actually have.

Joffrey was quite evil. Arya and to a lesser extend Tommen are in dangerous paths right now.

Who else? Tywin, of course. Janos Slynt. Pycelle. Apparently Varys, although I'm a bit on the fence about him. Jeyne Westerling's mother. Vargo Hoat and his accomplices, of course. Jorah Mormont, although he has his moments and may be curable still. Chett from the ASOS prologue, for sure. Rickard Karstark, although there are atenuating circunstances. Arguably Hoster Tully, who may well have damned Lysa (although some additional information would be nice).

ETA: and of course, Walder Frey and the Boltons are quite evil. Ramsay even more than Roose, although it is a good dispute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doing the "wrong" thing is often relative, but there are some things we can definitely say are wrong, such as slavery, rape, and murder.

I believe a good definition of evil is a pattern of behavior that treats people like objects, as tools to be used and discarded in order to serve someone's personal and selfish needs.

I think it is mostly depends on your individual definition of evil, I dont think that Jaime is evil for murdering Aerys, I dont think that a person who use other people is evil and I can also see myself practicing slavery. Because it's individual view on morality you can get many opinions on what is evil. my take on evil does not concern the actions but the intent behind them (for example Dany is stupid not evil), I consider evil those who enjoys to inflict harm and suffering, those who practice senseless violence other to feel good about themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldnt call anyone in the books evil. It seems closer to mental instability. With every character I could give an explanation about why they do stuff. Some like theon becuase of history and some like ramsay bolton or the mountain just becuase they are insane.

Tyrion was ridiculed his whole life for being a dwarf. even after he focused his abilities on knowledge it didn't help in a world where skill at arms. when he wanted to travel like his uncles did he was put in charge of sewers. After he saved the kings landing he was demoted and ridiculed for his injuries. Then he finds out the one person he thought he could trust had lied to him. And that he had been ridiculed for years thinking that lie was true. He was married off to a wife who did'nt trust him and was repulsed by him. He seems fairly good at hiding his mental cracks but it doesnt seem to take much to open them.

Jem, I'm not saying they did those things because they were evil, but that they're evil for doing those things. They weren't born evil. As I stated at the start, they choose to do evil things, and that's what makes them evil. That doesn't lessen the impact of what they've done, it makes it worse because they didn't have to do those things.

I disagree, when it comes to the mountain that rides and the bastard of bolton they might have been born to it. If not than circumstances beyond their control had driven them to it. If the bastard of bolton was sane do you think he would choose to torture people. That doesn't mean I don't want his skin to be flayed off of and have him kept alive with magic and the nerve endings intact, but I wouldnt call him evil. Just completely nuts.

I'll see what I can do with mental states though.

Theon greyjoy.

To put it simply he did'nt know what he wanted. He didn't understand that his situation with the starks was just a formality. He convinced himself that he hated the starks and ignored his feelings about them. When he went back to the iron islands he was ridiculed and placed into a backwater command with oversight. Due to his pride he wanted to prove himself so he did it in the only way he thought possible. For half his life winterfell had been the most powerful keep in the region. He saw it as the greatest prize and when he set out to prove himself he did it going after the greatest prize. When he arrived he started to realise he had been a bit ambitious and when bran and rickon escaped he panicked.

Ramsey bolton is just insane. can't really find much more until I know more about reeks influence. But I would say that his ilegitimate heriatage does make him feel a bit insecure and that insecurity probably does make him want to prove himself a bit. But thats about it.

with littlefinger I'm just guessing. Most of his history is through the eyes of other characters who know nothing about his ambition. But I'd say his ambition might have been caused by him spending his early life at one of the poorest keeps on the continent. When he got fostered at riverun he saw power, wealth and a chance. His minipulation skills probably evolved from trying to steal kisses from cat and lysa. Though his inteligence was probably more important. I can see that he has one weakness. His love for cat. Even though he was young I don't see anything other than love to the extremes causing him to risk his life in a duel he can't win. And later I find that he is a bit too open with his plans to sansa. He migth have full control over her but that doesn't mean she can't act like she has in the past and let slip an important piece of information. And I assume him kissing sansa is probably him attempting to find a replacement for his lost love. And sansa is supposed to look a lot like her mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I generally consider "evil" to be a person who causes pain and suffering simply for their own gratification and no other reason. For example Ramsey or The Mountain are evil because they frequently kill, rape, and torture people simply for no other reason than their own amusement. Other people like Jamie may be of bad character and immoral but they are not evil - when Jamie threw Bran from the window it wasn't because he enjoyed killing children, it was to save himself and Cercei from being caught and killed. Selfish reasons yes but not "evil."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do people really consider incest to be just straight up evil? I mean especially in the case of Jaime and Cersei, where they both OBVIOUSLY loved each other, and where it was always completely mutual...what makes it evil?

Is it messed up as hell? Sure.

Did it potentially have negative effects on their children and family? Maybe.

But was it truly, genuinely, evil? I don't see it at all, sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Faith of the Seven considers incest to be immoral. Jaime and Cersei both know this and yet they still to do it. It doesn't matter whether they love each other or that it was always consensual. They are going against the teachings of their gods. Since their gods are considered "good," going against them is "evil." If they think they're in the right, they could have argued to have it changed. But they don't. They hide it, and even resort to murder to keep it a secret.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evil is the lack of desire of being responsible for the consequences of one's actions.

In that sense, it is also lack of wisdom, and above all, the lack of desire for wisdom.

Of your list, Jaime was certainly evil, but he has really come around in ASOS and AFFC. He may well no longer be.

Tyrion - no, I don't see him as evil. His killing of Tywin was long overdue, albeit tragic. Tywin was a cancer, almost as bad as Littlefinger. Quite literally a corruptor, and a very unrepenting corruptor while at that. While not to be taken lightly, his death was justified.

Killing Shae was more of a pure revenge thing, of course. But I still don't think it marks him as an evil person. More like one that is not above revenge.

Sandor? Are you kidding me? He is nearly a Paladin. Sandor has one of the most accurate, honest senses of moral values in Westeros entire. He has commited attrocities, for sure, but his defining characteristic is his relentless desire to overcome his own environmental influences in order to become a more dignified person. In that respect he overshadows even Davos.

Theon is fascinating. A textbook example of evil in its purest, most common form - the result of despair, ignorance and lack of proper emotional structure. Evil as an accident not properly prevented or remedied, if you will. There is hope for him still, but he certainly has a whole lot to atone for. Still, I wouldn't so much say that he is evil as that he has commited terrible attrocities in the recent past.

Melisandre is evil to the core. Stannis is actually worse, since he is so hypocritical.

Khal Drogo is more like a moral revolutionary than anything else. He is by no means evil, and in fact takes grievous risks to resist the moral shortcomings of the culture he is inserted in. While being prodded by Daenerys, true, but still.

Perhaps paradoxically, Daenerys herself is somewhat evil now. Losing Rhaego and Drogo really changed her. She is currently somewhat drunk with her power and careless with her recent choices. A wiser, better person would be more careful. Truth be told, the circunstances don't really help her - she is too much in evidence and can't afford to experiment a lot with less serious stakes.

Littlefinger is scum.

Robert... I just don't know about him. We don't have enough information about how exactly his early days with Cersei were. Bastardy, however, doesn't seem to be that terrible a thing in Westeros. It ruins one's social status, but too few people have any to begin with.

Cersei is evil, for similar reasons of those that apply to Theon, although they are more solidly placed in her case. Like most evil people, she just doesn't know how to deal healthily with the pressure she suffered since she was young.

Lysa Arryn, and to an even greater extent Gregor Clegane, climb and perhaps cross that line between being evil and just being plain unbalanced. Both are clearly evil because they cause damage to others as a matter of course, but it is unclear how much of a choice they actually have.

Joffrey was quite evil. Arya and to a lesser extend Tommen are in dangerous paths right now.

Who else? Tywin, of course. Janos Slynt. Pycelle. Apparently Varys, although I'm a bit on the fence about him. Jeyne Westerling's mother. Vargo Hoat and his accomplices, of course. Jorah Mormont, although he has his moments and may be curable still. Chett from the ASOS prologue, for sure. Rickard Karstark, although there are atenuating circunstances. Arguably Hoster Tully, who may well have damned Lysa (although some additional information would be nice).

ETA: and of course, Walder Frey and the Boltons are quite evil. Ramsay even more than Roose, although it is a good dispute.

Evil is, among other things (the concept of Evil covers a huge range), the deliberate decision to harm innocent people because it is convenient or expedient. There is also a range of Evil involving doing harm to people that one knows one should not, normally harm, out of anger or bitterness.

ASoIaF characters I would classify as Evil:

Jaime Lannister - it's just too easy for him to push a child out of a window, trying to kill him. There were other measures that he could have tried, but that would have involved jeopardizing his and Cersei's preferred lifestyles and fleeing if they couldn't convince the boy not to talk. Sorry, for me, that's not enough of a reason to murder a kid. And I have seen no evidence that Jaime actually feels sorry that he crippled Bran; that he is sorry for Bran as a human being whose life Jaime ruined, rather than as an abstract idea of a mistake.

Cersei Lannister - fits my definition of Evil just for ordering the murder of a baby; I don't really have to list her other crimes . I don't buy her frustration, or the Maggy-the-Frog prophecy as an excuse for her behavior; I think she's a cruel, evil person, though an interesting one in the abstract sense. I care less about her extra-marital activities, except for her using her sexual favor to seal the deal of Kettleblack's saying he'd had sex with Margaery; which is not a condemnation of Cersei having sex, but the crime for which she was using it.

Tyrion Lannister - He didn't start out in the Evil camp; and it's sad that he's ended up there. Tyrion's fall from grace is especially tragic; he was the best of the Lannisters; he had, with the exception of the rape of Tysha (which was part Evil and a larger part abuse/coercion from Tywin, and at that time Tyrion would have had a defense of being a boy, not yet a man, at least in terms of cognitive development), he seemed to have treated prostitutes with some kindness and was also kind to those who his siblings usually ignore - cripples, bastards and broken things. But murdering Shae changed everything; he has been sliding down a slippery slope ever since; as evidenced by his more brutal treatment of prostitutes in Essos.

Tywin Lannister - if his children had been raised by Rickard Stark, they might have turned out to be decent human beings. Tywin is close to sociopathic (though I'm no psychiatrist); he seems to have no empathy for anyone but Jaime and to a lesser extent, Cersei. He seemed genuinely surprised when Tyrion brought up the idea that Sansa might not want to marry into and bear a child to the family that destroyed her own - and said something like 'who cares what the girl thinks?' (don't have ASOS handy) - which is rather disturbing. Proof of Tywin being an Evil man is, at least as I am concerned, his ordering his men to slaughter the Targaryen children. At the time of the Rebellion, Rhaenys and Aegon were in no position to threaten anyone; Rhaenys was a toddler and Aegon a baby. Tywin could have found other means to contain the children and try to assure that they would not be used against Robert. Tywin did not care to try, because killing the children was his bid to show his loyalty to new King Robert. Is it Evil to murder children to curry favor with a King? In my book, yes. And there's also the matter of orchestrating the Red Wedding, which was a piece of ghastly treachery and murder (killing unarmed guests). Didn't Tywin, as a young man, wipe out the Reynes of Castamere down to the last child of the House, too? Not sure about that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Theon - yes, Evil. I'm sorry for him; he was picked on by his older brothers, taken as a child hostage, suffered from Stark Envy. But that's not an excuse for ordering the murder of two small boys and causing their mother's death because he didn't want to lose face due to Bran and Rickon's escape. Even his sister, fellow Ironborn Asha, felt that the murder of children was dishonorable. And there's also the murder of a few Stark retainers when Theon captured Winterfell. He does seem to at least think of the children he killed, there are indications that he has a conscience; but it's also in a context of 'I'm not a kinslayer' since he didn't technically kill the young Starks. And just because I think Theon is Evil does not mean I think he deserved the torture Ramsey inflicted on him.

Ramsey Bolton, Roose Bolton, Gregor Clegane - all Evil.

Victarion Greyjoy - murders helpless young prostitutes in honor of two gods, beat his wife to death because his brother seduced or raped her. Throws the Maester overboard (after allowing the guy to be raped) because Moqorro is more effective. Whoopee, what a prince of a guy. Evil.

Euron. Also Evil. Hopefully he and Victarion will be squished by a giant kraken or something.

Varys - has small children mutilated because they make better spies; and possibly has them killed when they grow too big to fit in tunnels. Not to mention murdering Kevan Lannister.

Littlefinger - thrives on sowing chaos, war and misery for fun and profit, prods Lysa Tully to murder her husband (not that she probably needed much prodding, but she doesn't seem to have thought of the deed before Petyr suggested it) and lie about it to start a Stark/Lannister war; and oh yes, murdering Lysa and framing Marillion (even if the singer is a would-be rapist), and doing his best to corrupt a 13-year-old girl into becoming his accomplice and sexual plaything because she has the misfortune to resemble her mother and have a blood claim on Winterfell.

Joffrey - it's sad to see someone so young be such an Evil Little Snot; but there it is. Whether he was a sociopath or just a kid with a tendancy towards both arrogance and insecurity who was hopelessly over-indulged, the kid was evil at the age of what, 14.

Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch, Craster.

Melisandre and Stannis - let Melisandre offer herself to the fire if she's so devoted to Rhlorr. And I can't respect anyone who sentences men to be burned alive for the crime of cannibalism because they were starving; or burning alive for any reason.

Arya is well on her way to becoming Evil. She has done evil, murdering a man who she didn't even know, as a training exercise. But she gets a pass from me because she's very young, her character is immature; and she started killing not out of arrogance like Joffrey, but because she was being almost constantly threatened and was not receiving anything resembling proper moral supervision and teaching. If Arya is still killing people when the Faceless Men tell her to, or for money herself, when she's 18, then I will call her Evil; but she still has a chance, though small, to return to a more sane and less murderous existence.

Robert Baratheon - Evil if only for his physical abuse of Cersei. That's sheer self-indulgence at the expense of brutalizing a physically weaker person.

Tommen (listed as being on the path to Evil in the post quoted above) is not anywhere near being evil; his only crime is being too pampered and sheltered, which is not really his fault, since he's ten years old, and his inclination seems to be towards kindness, wanting to have a more active life, and loving kittens.

The Others - I think wiping out whole villages, including women and children, qualifies them as Evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stannis is evil? Really? I agree that burning people alive for giving bad political advice is evil, sure, but I don't think people who do evil things are necessarily always "evil". Morally gray, sure. And Stannis is morally gray.

He's the only King who responded to the NW's plea for help. He saved the Wall from the Wildling attack then planned to integrate the Wildlings into society. Stannis also has a strong sense of justice (but not necessarily mercy) - he gelds his soldiers for rape (who else in the series does this? Maybe Ned? Tywin encourages it!), and burns people for cannibalism (harsh, yes, but it's a crime in Westeros). Then he follows Jon's advice, gets the Hill clans on his side in the battle for Winterfell. To save "Ned's girl", a fake, but he, and they, cannot know that.

He almost burns a child alive, but Davos sets him straight. I have a hard time labeling anybody as "evil" when someone like Davos is so loyal to said person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As to people labeling Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Snow (I refuse to call him Bolton) as psychopaths, um, lets review.

A psychopath is somebody prone to psychotic delusions, psychosis, as in losing touch with reality. This is the legal definition of insanity (in the US), when someone cannot tell the difference between right and wrong; when they cannot tell the difference between their psychotic thoughts and reality.

A sociopath is someone who knows what they're doing is wrong, and doesn't care. This is Gregor and Ramsay. They know rape and torture is considered vile and illegal, but they still carry on with the behavior because they feel like it. Sociopaths are not exempt from jail - see notable serial killers Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.

As to whether incest is right or wrong? Who cares when it's between consenting adults (twins, in this case)? Why would we apply the standards of The Faith to characters in a novel with 5+ different major religions (old gods, new gods, drowned god, Rh'llor, meh, I'm missing one, but whatever)?

By the standards of The Faith, Cersei's sexually humiliating walk of shame was considered OKAY! That chapter made me cringe and was difficult to get through. I felt sympathy for Cersei, who is as a character a pretty dark shade of gray, and has committed atrocities, including murdering an infant. Until we got her POV, and discovered she's pretty close to leaning towards psychotic with a hint of sociopath in there, and then her Walk of Shame, I'd felt zero pity for her.

ETA: That said, I think Robert Baratheon is more of an asshole for flaunting his multiple affairs and siring 16 bastards without providing for them. Oh, and his physical abuse of Cersei. But evil? That's a strong word. I'll go with asshole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's another question - is any character, beyond a doubt, irredeemably evil? No matter what actions they take to do good in the world, are there some characters that are beyond redemption?

ETA: Cool post, OP!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<SNIP>

So, what is "evil" and what makes a person "evil"? <SNIP>

I believe a good definition of evil is a pattern of behavior that treats people like objects, as tools to be used and discarded in order to serve someone's personal and selfish needs.

Based on that here is a brief and by no means exhaustive list of characters--in no particular order--that I consider to be evil (your candidates may vary):

(1) Jaime. He has repeatedly committed incest with his sister and attempted to murder Bran. That was evil. Yet he's recently turned a new leaf and so we begin to like him more.

(2) Tyrion. He murdered Shae, and also his father, who was no saint himself, but this was still evil. He is consumed by revenge and with becoming Lord of Casterly Rock. Yet we like him because he's witty, he was kind to Sansa, Bran, and Jon, and he's not as bad as the rest of his kin.

(3) The Hound. He's committed murder--maybe not on the scale of his brother--but we like him more than Gregor.

(4) Theon, for betraying the Starks and ordering the murder of two boys for his own greater glory. Yet we pity and almost like him because of his cruel treatment at the hands of the Boltons.

(5) Melisandre. She burns people to gain more power for herself. That's evil. We don't really like her, even if she was a slave once. Going along with it because it furthers your own ends (Stannis, #6) is also evil.

(7) Khal Drogo. He raped, murdered, and enslaved lots of people to serve his own ends. That was evil. Yet we liked him for killing Viserys and because he loved Dany.

(8) Dany. She allowed her brother to be murdered, burned Mirri Maz Duur alive, and had the Meereenese nobles crucified. That was evil.

(9) Littlefinger. Duh.

A less clear example is Robert Baratheon fathering multiple children out of wedlock (as did Cersei) and for generally disrespecting the sanctity of his marriage and flaunting it because it pleased him. However, Cersei's role in Robert's death was clearly an evil thing, as is allowing a monster like Gregor Clegane (#10, who is/was maybe the closest to being 100% Evil) to become an even bigger monster.

So who isn't evil? The ones that immediately come to mind are Ned, Davos, Brienne, the Stark children (including Arya), Tommen, Myrcella, Sam, Hodor....it's a much shorter list, but it basically includes those who have shown that they honestly care more about others than care about themselves, or are too young or simple to know any better.

I don't think that GRRM is a moral relativist. I think he has very clear ideas in mind as to what is evil, and may also be very surprised by how much we may like his bad guys, despite having manipulating our feelings towards them.

Edited to add that I'm aware that including Arya on my list of non-evil characters is going to get me in trouble.

Not evil just two screwed up people basing their actions on another group of people.

Lets not forget her brother did beat her and berated her all her young years, he beat her even though she was a queen and married to another man- Stockholm syndrome or self defense.

The nobles burned and crucified innocent slaves, then other nobles would not give up the guilty, the method was cruel the intent wasn't evil.

This is why I don't ship the guy, he hides behind following orders, killed a young kid which he could have lost in the woods.

In the case of Arya all but one was in the course of saving her life or based on actions of war, the NW singer was not her right to kill she is neither a Lord or King, not evil but not good for her growth.

My evil list includes what I did not comment on above plus:

Walder Frey and most of his sons (not all) and who ever did the desecration of Robb, GreyWind and Lady Catelyn.

Boltons- I hate them 1 step more than Walder

Lysa Tully, I won't let her say she was under LF thumb.

Arnolf Karstark

Qyburn- torture is not enough for this guy

Vargo Hoat

Biter and Rorgue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, what is "evil" and what makes a person "evil"?

Evil conduct. For instance, the Judeo-Christian tradition acknowledges that all men are sinners, and therefore, all men are "Evil".

But you are probably looking for a word that will distinguish heroes (relatively upstanding and virtuous characters) from villains (relatively wicked characters) in a work of fiction like this one. I cannot really help you there. However (without in any case ruling out the possibility of redemption) I agree with most of your choices (below).

I'm tempted to quote Yoda's famous line about fear being the path to the dark side, but let's try to address this without citing religion.

Impossible ... especially if you define "religion" so broadly that it includes the pronouncements of Yoda. To discuss good and evil, you need an underlying moral philosophy. Ought a person try to do unto others as he would have others do unto him? Or otherwise practice altruism?" That might make him Good according to Hillel and/or that Dude from Nazareth, but it makes him Evil according to Ayn Rand.

I think we could agree that has to do with knowing right from wrong, but consistently choosing to do wrong anyway.

If we are looking for a definition of "evil person" that does not include everybody, then that is as good a definition as any.

Doing the "wrong" thing is often relative ...

Relative to what? Some moral questions are more difficult than others; some moral issues leave more room for disagreement. Whether a specific instance of conduct is right or wrong may depend on a huge array of factors. But ultimatly, a specific instance of conduct is either morally forbidden ("evil") or not morally forbidden ("good"). I see no middle ground between those two options, merely some potential for disagreement as to which applies in specific cases.

(1) Jaime. He has repeatedly committed incest with his sister and attempted to murder Bran. That was evil. Yet he's recently turned a new leaf ...

Yup. Except I've seen no evidence of his "new leaf".

(2) Tyrion. He murdered Shae, and also his father

Yup. And don't forget poor Symon.

(3) The Hound. He's committed murder--

Yup. "He ran" is not much of an excuse/justification.

(4) Theon, for betraying the Starks and ordering the murder of two boys

Yup.

(5) Melisandre. She burns people to gain more power for herself.

Yup.

Going along with it because it furthers your own ends (Stannis, #6) is also evil.

Yup.

(7) Khal Drogo. He raped, murdered, and enslaved lots of people to serve his own ends.

Yup.

Yet we liked him for killing Viserys [...]

Well, I liked the poetic justice in Viserys' horrible demise, in which is own wickedness causes him to fall prey to a greater devil than himself.

(8) Dany. She allowed her brother to be murdered, burned Mirri Maz Duur alive, and had the Meereenese nobles crucified. That was evil.

Indeed.

(9) Littlefinger. Duh.

No, he's not evil. Just misunderstood. (Just kidding).

A less clear example is Robert Baratheon fathering multiple children out of wedlock

The conduct itself is selfish and evil. His worst sin, however, was ordering the assassination of Dany. But he gets browny points for a certain level of deathbed repentance.

However, Cersei's role in Robert's death was clearly an evil thing,

What "role in Robert's death"? Robert was gored by a boar, and getting drunk on his favorite wine was his own decision. I'd rather blame her for murders she actually committed, like little Barra.

So who isn't evil? Ned, Davos, Brienne, the Stark children (including Arya), Tommen, Myrcella, Sam, Hodor....

I agree Ned was "good"; as was Rob. If I were to compose a VERY tentative list of still living characters I think have been "good", or who show signs they may eventually prove to be "good", they might include:

(1) Davos

(2) Sansa

(3) Sweetrobin

Also, I think there are some (subtle) signs that Sandor is on a path for redemption, though he has not proven it yet.

Sansa is an interesting case. She is an idealist. Her mistake was believing that Joffrey & his kin embodied the ideals she worships. When she realizes her mistake, she is disillusioned re Joffrey, et al, but she never seems to completely let go of the ideals themselves. Now, with Sweetrobin, she seems to have found a kindred spirit of sorts, since he also loves the old stories.

Now the test comes. Now that she knows Sweetrobin is in danger from Littlefinger, will she act to protect him?

I don't think that GRRM is a moral relativist.

I hope you are right. But lots of his fans are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, putting aside what the books' religions have to say about incest, the attempted cover up ultimately throws the entire realm into chaos and war. Granted, they couldn't have foreseen this, but they didn't stop to think about anyone but themselves. If they did stop to think it through, I believe they still would have allowed however many good and innocent people die to prevent the truth from getting out. That's evil.

Personally, I think Jaime would have welcomed that. After all, he does tell Cersei that if Bran blabs, he'd readily kill everyone until he and Cersei were the only people left in the world. That's the line from the tv series, at least. I don't recall if he ever said that in the books. And his most famous line, "The things I do for love," I think refers a lot less to his love for Cersei than for his love for himself. Cersei would do the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(7) Khal Drogo. He raped, murdered, and enslaved lots of people to serve his own ends. That was evil. Yet we liked him for killing Viserys and because he loved Dany.

(8) Dany. She allowed her brother to be murdered, burned Mirri Maz Duur alive, and had the Meereenese nobles crucified. That was evil.

How can you put Viserys' death at Dany's feet? He came into a place that allows no bloodshed, with a sword, and threatened to murder Dany. WTF was she supposed to do? Before he threatened her life, she and Ser Jorah were frantically attempting to talk Viserys down. That's just unfair, IMHO.

Lay the sack of Astapor at her feet; the killing of the 163 Great Masters in Mereen. Chaining her dragons, even. But Viserys? He got himself killed, there was no other choice for Dany. He threatened her life - that would fall under a "self-defense" clause, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...