What is evil?

[Hossbeast]

I sincerely doubt we could agree on a list of REAL humans that we could call "evil" let alone ASoIaF characters.

For me, there are almost NO evil characters in ASoIaF, which is what I like so much about it. There is no antagonist whose only motivation is the destruction of the human race, or some such, all the characters have actual believable human motivations. Well, almost, all.

So my list is very short

Ramsay Bolton

Gregor Clegane

Aerys Targaryen

That's about it.

[LuisDantas]

Are inanimate objects capable of empathising? I'm sorry if my post didn't make it clear. I'll give it another go:

I think an evil person is someone who is incapable of empathising. Better? I felt that, for obvious reasons, it was implied that an inanimate object wouldn't qualify as good or evil, my apologies.

Not to nitpick, but I still feel that something is missing. Is someone in deep sleep evil, for instance? I trust you don't think so, but the reason why really could afford to be made clearer.

[The Shadowbinder]

If I make any mistakes, I am sure you will call me a "Jackass" again. I guess you are just that kind of person.

What kind of person, a normal one? I think "jackass" is an apt description for someone who talks down to others in a sarcastic, know-it-all tone, but can't even get the basic facts of what he's talking about straight.

so...

is all of you're guys definition of an evil person anyone who has ever done anything wrong to anyone or anything even under duress or on accident.

Lol yeah apparently it is... weird right?

So my list is very short

Ramsay Bolton

Gregor Clegane

Aerys Targaryen

That's about it.

Great list!

[RandomWanderer]

I don't believe in black and white, good and evil, the world is millions of shades of grey.. and I see the same in ASOIAF as well..

[zalim]

LOL

someone here gave a very philosophical definition of "EVIL".

"Evil is the lack of desire of being responsible for the consequences of one's actions.

In that sense, it is also lack of wisdom, and above all, the lack of desire for wisdom."

Was Sansa being responsible, when she was lying to the KING and betraying her own family?

She had no desire of being responsible, when she betrayed her father to the Queen Cersei.

She always was the bad egg in the Stark family. She betrayed her own blood for for her own

selfish desires. What could be a bigger evil thn that?

Someone also said that she was under pressure and i have to laugh at that. What pressure?

She didnt have to tell cersei everything about Ned, she didnt have to lie to the king and get that

poor boy killed. I would say it was all her fault, she was just being selfish, she was ready to humiliate

her own family, so that she can marry Joff and become queen.

She did commit some evil deeds and she paid price for that, the humiliation she suffered afterwards.

It was still far less thn she actually deserved.

[Alexia]

She always was the bad egg in the Stark family. She betrayed her own blood for for her own

selfish desires. What could be a bigger evil thn that?

Gee, that sounds like Robb. :lol:

As for what could be a bigger evil than that, you clearly lack imagination (and reading comprehension).

[zalim]

Gee, that sounds like Robb. :lol:

As for what could be a bigger evil than that, you clearly lack imagination (and reading comprehension).

Didnt he pay for what he did? he paid heavy price.

Sansa should have paid the similar price.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Didnt he pay for what he did? he paid heavy price.

Sansa should have paid the similar price.

I think Sansa's youth needs to be considered here. When she revealed her plans to Cersei, she certainly didn't think that it would result in the death of all of these people. It could be argued that living is a worse punishment in this situation, having to see her family die around her, along with all of the people of her father's household, and knowing that it was her that caused it. A lot of guilt for a 13 year old to live with.

[zalim]

I think Sansa's youth needs to be considered here. When she revealed her plans to Cersei, she certainly didn't think that it would result in the death of all of these people. It could be argued that living is a worse punishment in this situation, having to see her family die around her, along with all of the people of her father's household, and knowing that it was her that caused it. A lot of guilt for a 13 year old to live with.

I would totally agree with you if it was about the real world. In interview GRRM once said that children grow quickly in westeros (since it shows a alot of elements of our own history). I have already mentioned before, Dany is only 2 years older thn Sansa and she already isconquering the cities and riding the dragon.

Arya is younger thn her yet she saw JOFF for what he was but Sansa simply refused to look at his true nature. If Arya can do it why not her? The fact is, she was selfish.

Well offcourse she didnt know Ned was going to die but that is not what we are discussing, Neds death way a unforeseen consequence which she never predicted the thing we are discussing is that betraying your family for your own selfish reasons and to impress others is actually evil or not and i consider it to be evil.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I would totally agree with you if it was about the real world. In interview GRRM once said that children grow quickly in westeros (since it shows a alot of elements of our own history). I have already mentioned before, Dany is only 2 years older thn Sansa and she already isconquering the cities and riding the dragon.

Arya is younger thn her yet she saw JOFF for what he was but Sansa simply refused to look at his true nature. If Arya can do it why not her? The fact is, she was selfish.

Well offcourse she didnt know Ned was going to die but that is not what we are discussing, Neds death way a unforeseen consequence which she never predicted the thing we are discussing is that betraying your family for your own selfish reasons and to impress others is actually evil or not and i consider it to be evil.

I disagree. She betrayed her family in a way which, if Cersei wasn't the person she is, would seem insignificant. She didn't betray her family with evil intentions. If she had gone to Cersei in the hopes that her father would be killed for it, then that would certainly be seen as an act of evil. As it is, I think it was as innocent as a young girl wanting to find prince charming, and thinking all of that was going to be taken away. There was no malice in what she did, the fact that Cersei acted on that in such a way could be considered evil, but I'd say Sansa is innocent of that - it is Cersei's act of evil, but it is because of Sansa that she was able to do it.

[Angalin]

<mod>

Disagree with each other all you like, but keep it polite. Skip the personal attacks and name-calling, thanks.

</mod>

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Was Sansa being responsible, when she was lying to the KING and betraying her own family?

Ned had the right of it when he said that Sansa, rightly or wrongly, had to side with Joffrey. That's just how it was, and he didn't hold it against her. Sansa also had to bear the weight of that error, if you remember ...

She had no desire of being responsible, when she betrayed her father to the Queen Cersei.

She didn't tell Cersei anything about Ned that Cersei either didn't already know or wouldn't have found out. Ned was the victim of his own honor and Baelish's double-crossing. Sansa didn't have much if anything to do with it. Like Jcooper said, Sansa's intent was hardly evil: She wanted to stay in King's Landing with the boy she thought she loved. It's not like she went to Cersei and said, "Here's what my father's up to, please go arrest him and chop off his head."

She always was the bad egg in the Stark family. She betrayed her own blood for for her own selfish desires. What could be a bigger evil thn that?

She did what she thought was right at the time, before Cersei and Joffrey betrayed her. She made the mistake of trusting them and paid the price for it. I hardly consider that to be "evil."

She did commit some evil deeds and she paid price for that, the humiliation she suffered afterwards.

It was still far less thn she actually deserved.

So you think that she deserved worse than being beaten regularly, stripped naked in public, held prisoner, threatened with death, threatened with rape, psychologically tortured, forced to see her father's severed head, goaded over the appalling deaths of her brother and mother and forcibly married, with the implication that she should have been raped on her wedding night?

Call me crazy, but I think she's suffered enough, and to say that she deserved worse than all of that is, I think, over the line.

[Slychd]

Evil is having to write a 14 page term paper on The Definition of Evil for my Ethics class. The bitch got 9 pages and I got a C (a C I was most grateful for).

On topic: Ramsay Bolton is probably one of the only truly evil characters. He has no redeeming qualities. The characters mentioned by the OP, I can excuse all of them save Littlefinger. I don't know Littlefinger's whole game so it remains to be determined if he is evil. I'm leaning towards yes he is evil lol.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Evil is having to write a 14 page term paper on The Definition of Evil for my Ethics class. The bitch got 9 pages and I got a C (a C I was most grateful for).

On topic: Ramsay Bolton is probably one of the only truly evil characters. He has no redeeming qualities. The characters mentioned by the OP, I can excuse all of them save Littlefinger. I don't know Littlefinger's whole game so it remains to be determined if he is evil. I'm leaning towards yes he is evil lol.

We've probably got another 5 pages worth for you here :P You'd probably even get extra marks for applying your points to a piece of literature :P

[Fearsome Fred]

Way too many people don't understand that morality is subjective.

All perceptions and beliefs, including moral perceptions, are subjective. That does not require us to become nihilists or solipsists. To say that moral perceptions are ENTIRELY subjective is, in the final analysis, to reject morality as a delusion.

A moral belief, if it is anything at all, is a belief that one is accountable to a standard that is external to one's own whims. A person who thinks his moral feelings are "entirely subjective" rejects such beliefs as delusions.

A person who dismisses his moral instincts as "entirely subjective" is like a drunkard who sees a pink elephant, but says to himself, "There is no pink elephant, just a hallucination, I am only drunk." He does not really believe in morality at all. Complete "moral subjectivism" is identical to "moral nihilism".

That is not to deny a subjective element to moral beliefs and perceptions. Compare the perceptions of the 6 blind men groping the elephant. The fact that they disagree and argue COULD be used as proof as to the non-existence of this "totally subjective" elephant. Or, perhaps, there really is an elephant.

Nobody can be forced to believe in morality. But a person who chooses to believe he is not bound by moral laws has made a choice as basic as the choice between good and evil.

[Fearsome Fred]

I don't believe in black and white, good and evil, the world is millions of shades of grey.. and I see the same in ASOIAF as well..

Grey is, by definition, a mix of black and white. If you don't believe in black and white, you don't believe in "shades of grey" either.

[kissdbyfire]

Grey is, by definition, a mix of black and white. If you don't believe in black and white, you don't believe in "shades of grey" either.

Live and learn... I'd always understood the whole black/white/grey to be a figurative way of illustrating certain things. But you seem to be using this in a very literal sense. I had understood from the post you've quoted above that the person who posted it (there's no name in the quote) was simply saying she/he/it doesn't believe in Manichaeism.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

My list is pretty short since there are only a few characters I consider really evil: Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane and Vargo Hoat and friends.

[LuisDantas]

LOL

someone here gave a very philosophical definition of "EVIL".

"Evil is the lack of desire of being responsible for the consequences of one's actions.

In that sense, it is also lack of wisdom, and above all, the lack of desire for wisdom."

Was Sansa being responsible, when she was lying to the KING and betraying her own family?

No. She lacked wisdom.

She had no desire of being responsible, when she betrayed her father to the Queen Cersei.

That is not at all how it looks like to me. She had no skill at choosing the better atittude during a difficult decision. She never saw her choice as a betrayal, in part because she lacked enough information. In fact, lack of enough information is a recurrent difficulty for Sansa.

She always was the bad egg in the Stark family. She betrayed her own blood for for her own

selfish desires. What could be a bigger evil than that?

It is a big list. Why are you so harsh with Sansa?

Someone also said that she was under pressure and i have to laugh at that. What pressure?

Leaving the life that she had began to build in King's Landing with hardly any explanation or advance warning at all is quite a pressure a 13-year older who isn't particularly daring. More so when it also involves giving up her high hopes of becoming consort of the heir apparent.

She didn't have to tell cersei everything about Ned, she didn't have to lie to the king and get that poor boy killed. I would say it was all her fault, she was just being selfish, she was ready to humiliate her own family, so that she can marry Joff and become queen.

I'm happy that you don't have to give witness to my character then.

She did commit some evil deeds and she paid price for that, the humiliation she suffered afterwards.

It was still far less thn she actually deserved.

Ouch.

[LuisDantas]

The characters mentioned by the OP, I can excuse all of them save Littlefinger. I don't know Littlefinger's whole game so it remains to be determined if he is evil. I'm leaning towards yes he is evil lol.

Remind me to invite you to be in the jury if I ever end up being judged for a crime. Particularly if it turns out that I am guilty.