Bronn/Shae double standard v. 2

[mediocre cheese]

Something that came up repeatedly in the other thread:

She gave details about her relationship with Tyrion to the entire court that she didn't have to tell. MY GIANT OF LANNISTER! The bitch deserved a good choking.

First of all, he didn't ask her to call him that; she made it up and said it on her own. Second, that bit of information wasn't necessary to save her ass or to prove him guilty. Her comment had nothing to do with her self-interests. She said it for no reason but to have people laugh at him.

I stand by my opinion that Shae gave her testimony in exchange for what she wanted,status, and that her "Giant of Lannister" quip was to twist the dagger into Tyrion's back. Unfortunately, it was Tyrion's fault for trusting a whore like Shae.

This sort of thing gets said a lot in the Shae thread, that "okay I can see her lying and saying he and sansa plotted to murder joffrey, but I draw the line at her telling truthful yet embarrassing details of their sex life." I fully agree that revealing that he liked to be called a giant is not a nice thing to do. But what else is not a nice thing to do? Making up a lie and spreading it publicly that a women's daughter is not her husband's but the child of a mentally retarded man. And that is exactly what tyrion did to selsye and stannis. You think selsye wasn't embarrassed by the rumor that her daughter was fathered by patchface?

The reason that tyrion helped make up this rumor and spread it was not because he was personally sadistic toward selsye and stannis, but because it was politically beneficial to him and house lannister. Which is fine, words are wind and all that. But this idea that "bitch should be choked" for making up sexually embarrassing lies is directly at odds within tyrion's own behavior. Shae makes up a lie in order to benefit herself, which is wrong, but Tyrion does the exact same when it suits his ends. Shae didn't lie because she was a whore, anymore than tyrion lied about shireen's parentage because he was a dwarf, they both lied because they were looking out for number 1. I've yet to see any members of the pro-strangulation camp say tyrion deserves death for spreading malicious rumors about others sexual behavior though.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Shae actually pretended to love him.

Because she was paid to.

Whats interests me is why people think that Bronn had it much easier to avoid condemning testimony against Tyrion. He had no noble origins and no powerful relatives. He is basically a nobody. . Nobody cared for him. His profession as sellsword is considered to be loathsome, not much different from being a prostitute. His martial skills are irrelevant, when talking about fighting with numerous guardsmen. If Cercei wanted she could have arrested, tortured and killed him, and nobody would have made a sound.

Because he is a simple sellsword. And he was not involved. It's far more believable the someone would tell a prostitute of things they were not involved than a sellsword who in no way shows any sort of loyalty.

Cersei did not need Bronn's testimony. Nor did she need Shae's. The difference is that Shae could humilate him by exposing his sexual secrets. Bronn not so much.

oba

Well, we don't really know if Bronn and Shae were offered different set of options, People assume that Shae was threatened into testifying, only based on her low status and Cercei reputation. Why people assume Bronn was treated differently?

And the other way around - if we assume that Bronn was not threatened but only offered a positive insentive by Cercei, why we assume she acted differently with regard to Shae - both Shae and Bronn were in her power,

See, I believe Bronn would have testified if Cersei offered just a reward. Well, not exactly. He would have gone to the Imp to see if he could get a better one.

[Arland]

Because he is a simple sellsword. And he was not involved.

Bronn was known to be Tyrion right hand and to be very close to Tyrion. His testimony could be very damning, he could know about actual plots and not just about pillow talk.

I fully agree that revealing that he liked to be called a giant is not a nice thing to do

Sure, let's ignore what this particular statement says about Shae willingness to testify against Tyrion as a whole and focus on it's literal meaning. Why not. ...Ohhhh damn. It was discussed to death soooo many times.... why do I bother?

[Nev yn]

but I draw the line at her telling truthful yet embarrassing details of their sex life.

Actually, it wasn't truthful. She states that he forced her to call him her Giant of Lannister, whereas in reality she made it up ostensibly as an affectionate nickname. He liked it, but he didn't make her call him that. He didn't even come up with the nickname.

See, I believe Bronn would have testified if Cersei offered just a reward

That would be perfectly in character. His whole story is he would do anything for money. I tend to dislike Shae because she went the extra mile over what was necessary to hold up her end of whatever bargain was made, twisting details of their personal relationship to paint a much different picture than what happened. But Bronn would have testified just the same.

His testimony could be very damning, he could know about actual plots and not just about pillow talk.

You seem to have missed the point where they weren't concerned with any actual plots. They just wanted to get through the trial and have the matter of Joffrey's murder closed. Shae makes the crowd emotional and turns them even more against Tyrion. Bronn would just add unneeded detail to the narrative that they were already considering the truth. You don't need facts when the jury's already stacked against the defendent. Shae was just a show for the crowd.

[Arland]

Nev yn

Well, you can say that any of the testimonies were not needed since Tyrion was universally hated from the start.

I would consider a testimony from someone who served as personal bodyguard and close advisory and helper telling that Tyrion plotted to kill Joffrey even better show for a crowd.

[mediocre cheese]

My job is the closest one to being a prostitute - I am a lawyer.

ha ha ha lawyers are whores. They teach you that one in 1L civ pro?

I would not agree with you on something thou. Prostitute or a locksmith, being a personal servant to somebody for considerable amount of time implies some degree of loyalty.

Or it implies necessity of working for someone because of poverty/lack of other employment avenues ect. My mother worked as a cleaning woman/maid for 3 years, including for families she despised (one woman falsely accused her of stealing jewelry and than told her she would subtract 10% of the jewelry's value each week for 10 weeks from her pay). Yet she continued working for them, because when you work as a personal servant, you don't get to choose your employers. You take any paycheck you can get. I sincerely hope if you are a lawyer, you have a better understanding of labor law than what your demonstrating here. Try suing to prevent an employee from working for your rival and see what happens. Unless your contract specifically stated exclusivity (lady duff gordon case), an employee can quit and work for whoever they want. This idea your pushing that a servant owes some duty to an employer, beyond what they are specifically contracted to do flies in the face of everything the US legal system says.

I must pretend that I support my client claim. I would considered it to be wrong to use knowledge gained in a work with a client, against him latter, even if it is not something falling under lawyer client privilege, but lets say something personal. I would also consider it wrong for example, "to jump wagon" and go represent other side after long a emotional divorce trial.

If you don't like your clients claim, perhaps you shouldn't agree to represent them. If you want to have a personal standard for your own behavior feel free, although as a lawyer you should know the standards the legal profession imposes on itself are above and beyond that of a personal servant/sex worker/ any other employment because of the adversarial nature of the legal system.

[Natalia Borgia]

I read a post yesterday analyzing the Tyrion/Shae relationship in the context of Tyrion's need for love and also how he treats women in general. I think he loved her and he never loved Bronn.

I think there is not a double standard as they are 2 different characters.

[Arland]

Try suing to prevent an employee from working for your rival and see what happens.

Have I mention suing? Not every morally wrong conduct justifies a lawsuit. Also...In you example if an employ would use in his new place of work, commercial secrets learned in his previous place of work, he may well get sued.

I sincerely hope if you are a lawyer, you have a better understanding of labor law than what your demonstrating here

Well if we are in a business of exchange of pleasantries, I hope in real life you have a better understanding of rules of civil conduct.

If you don't like your clients claim, perhaps you shouldn't agree to represent them

You confuse a role of a lawyer and a judge. If that were the case, lots of people had no proper legal counsel and had their rights infringed.

... because of the adversarial nature of the legal system.

It has nothing to do with adversarial nature of the legal system but rather with a close nature of the relationship between a lawyer and his client. Not very different from a a close relationship between a regular client and a prostitute. The only difference is that there is no prostitute bar organization to put such "prostitute rules of professional ethics in writing". I did say, my profession is very close to prostitution.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Jeez louise, is everyone who posts here a lawyer? Do you think we can submit the time we spend posting for CLE credit?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

That would be perfectly in character. His whole story is he would do anything for money. I tend to dislike Shae because she went the extra mile over what was necessary to hold up her end of whatever bargain was made, twisting details of their personal relationship to paint a much different picture than what happened. But Bronn would have testified just the same.

I think we have differences on the point of Shae's testimony. I think it was to embrass Tyrion. So, she didn't go beyond what was expected of her (in my mind).

This is why Bronn was not bothered for it.

[The Storm Queen]

First. "Feminazi". Please do not use that term. It disqualifies you from every halfway intelligent conversation. The National Socialist propagated an inhuman ideology, killed millions of Jews, political opponents and civilians from occupied countries in the most cruel way possible and started one of the most terrible wars in human history. It left Germany a legacy with which my home country is still trying to deal with. Please give me one good argument why you use feminism and national socialism in word.

If you search someone to come out with you I´d warmly recommend you to check out this posts (http://asoiaf.wester...cersei-a-recap/), I am sure that you will find a brother in arms who might agree with you on the suffering of the poor repressed white males in this society!

Concerning your argument. Nobody in here is saying that Shae is a nice or particulary good person. But many argue that

a) Tyrion had no legal or moral right to kill her

b. Shae was a sex worker, meaning she exchanged the act of sex against material goods (money, valuable materials etc.). Tyrion had no right to expect her to love him especially given the fact that he never treated her like a real girlfriend

c) Tyrion is in fact a very privileged person with power and money. Shae lacks both, nobody is going to care for her if Cersei sends her to the Black Cells. Her making a deal with Cersei instead of sacrifying her life for a john does not make her an evil person

d) Shae humiliated Tyrion which was not nice. But Tyrion does the same in basically every chapter he is in.

......

[Kantor]

Something that came up repeatedly in the other thread:

This sort of thing gets said a lot in the Shae thread, that "okay I can see her lying and saying he and sansa plotted to murder joffrey, but I draw the line at her telling truthful yet embarrassing details of their sex life." I fully agree that revealing that he liked to be called a giant is not a nice thing to do. But what else is not a nice thing to do? Making up a lie and spreading it publicly that a women's daughter is not her husband's but the child of a mentally retarded man. And that is exactly what tyrion did to selsye and stannis. You think selsye wasn't embarrassed by the rumor that her daughter was fathered by patchface?

The reason that tyrion helped make up this rumor and spread it was not because he was personally sadistic toward selsye and stannis, but because it was politically beneficial to him and house lannister. Which is fine, words are wind and all that. But this idea that "bitch should be choked" for making up sexually embarrassing lies is directly at odds within tyrion's own behavior. Shae makes up a lie in order to benefit herself, which is wrong, but Tyrion does the exact same when it suits his ends. Shae didn't lie because she was a whore, anymore than tyrion lied about shireen's parentage because he was a dwarf, they both lied because they were looking out for number 1. I've yet to see any members of the pro-strangulation camp say tyrion deserves death for spreading malicious rumors about others sexual behavior though.

Tyrion does, indeed, do very many morally questionable things - arguably far more than Shae does. But Shae doesn't try to discipline Joffrey, or defy Cersei, or refuse to bed somebody against their will. She isn't funny, witty and intelligent like Tyrion. We spend a lot of time seeing Tyrion at his best, enough that we don't mind seeing his worst. All we ever see of Shae is:

1) Her playing a role and pretending to love Tyrion (and of course, he is fooled)

2) Her testimony against him and revelation of their sexual secrets (not a very nice thing to do, especially given what Tyrion thought of her)

Neither of these is particularly likely to endear her to us, looking back. All we ever see is her bad side. For the same reason, nobody hates Jaime (who tried to kill Bran and did kill Eddard's guards) or Arya (who kills quite a few people): they do more than enough to make up for it.

[littlespider]

:lmao:

You should join our circle jerk. We have fun. We burn bras and shit, and read the SCUM manifesto over and over and talk about how men are evil but how we all secretly wish we had dicks.

I don't think you've paid attention to the conversation. The people here who are explaining that Shae did not deserve her fate are not saying -- not at all -- that she is a great person, that she is an ethical person, or a truthful person. What the discussion is based around is the logical conclusion, after a careful reading of Tyrion's trial, and weighing what we all know about Cersei and Tywin's capacity for ruthless coercion, and looking at the real facts about Shae's shitty, shitty life and experience, and saying that really, she didn't deserve what she got. And she shouldn't be dragged through the mud and hated solely because she "betrayed" Tyrion, or that the very concept of "betrayal" simply can't apply to the relationship she had with Tyrion.

Non-sexist pig* anti-Shae argument: I understand Shae lives in a world where her choices are significantly more limited than Bronn's. And really, she could very well have been under an awful set of constraints and been forced to testify. However, my reading of [this quote] is that she is being disingenuous while testifying rather than frightened. And her addition of the "my giant of Lannister" detail was really not necessary and completely cruel. So, she deserves her fate. But so does everyone else who was cruel to Tyrion. (Or, alternatively and, imo, more reasonably: Shae didn't deserve her fate. No one deserves that. But whether or not she deserved to be murdered is irrelevant; she was cruel. And Bronn was never cruel to him.)

Sexist pig* anti-Shae argument: Shae was a dumb-ass gold-digging slut who basically fucked Tyrion for all he was worth and led him on when he was in love with her and should have stayed loyal to him because he was the best thing that ever happened to her. So basically she destroyed Tyrion and pretty much wanted to kil him because she was a dumb gold-digging slut. She should have stayed loyal to him because he was the best thing for her but she is a cheating slut who was fucking his dad because he's more rich. Bronn would never have betrayed Tyrion.

*sexist pigs can be either gender, of course. As can anti-sexist pigs.

So before you fling around silly "brain dead" (your words, not mine) catch phrases about super scary feminists that your frat buddies and you share to alleviate your anxiety-ridden crisis in masculinity while you participate in your circle jerk or elephant walk or whatever, be able to distinguish a sexist argument from one that is not sexist.

The people here who are arguing in defense of Shae are not making the claim that she is a saint, or even a likeable character. They (we, but I've given up on this thread because of the "brain dead" arguments that are being bruited about, and not by the "faux feminazi circle jerkers," either) are trying to point out that Shae is unfairly condemned by readers because of a perhaps unrecognized, or perhaps not, gendered bias, one that could be based in reader perceptions of her, or based in Tyrion's perceptions of her, since all we see of her is through his POV. And they (we) are/were trying to point out that Shae is under a set of constraints in her relationship with Tyrion that Bronn is not, and that Shae's "alternative" to not testifying at Tyrion's trial was likely very unpleasant indeed, and that these things should be taken into account before automatically condemning her.

K?

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to watching "Teeth" and planning my destruction of the entire male gender, and like, doing evil women's lib and shit.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Let's keep this civil and constructive. Ranting about the "feminazis" and and using derogatory terms about women is not civil nor constructive. For those who quoted the now-deleted screed, I've edited your posts to remove it. Let's get back on track. Thank you. [/mod]

[Fearsome Fred]

Actually, it wasn't truthful. She states that he forced her to call him her Giant of Lannister, whereas in reality she made it up ostensibly as an affectionate nickname. He liked it, but he didn't make her call him that.

This is wrong. The "Giant" thing was TOTALLY Tyrion's idea. Shae (who had just overheard parts of a conversation where she heard Tyrion say something about her Ex being his enemy and someone being put in the Van) was trying to talk Tyrion out of murdering her ex-client/fiance (or whatever he was) and in the process of doing this accidentally slipped up, using the words "small man", which angered Tyrion. "What am I, a giant?" he challenges her. She is able to mollify him by giving the "right" answer to the question; but it was totally Tyrion who pushed the issue and demanded that "right" answer.

[1234567]

The people here who are arguing in defense of Shae are not making the claim that she is a saint, or even a likeable character. They (we, but I've given up on this thread because of the "brain dead" arguments that are being bruited about, and not by the "faux feminazi circle jerkers," either) are trying to point out that Shae is unfairly condemned by readers because of a perhaps unrecognized, or perhaps not, gendered bias, one that could be based in reader perceptions of her, or based in Tyrion's perceptions of her, since all we see of her is through his POV. And they (we) are/were trying to point out that Shae is under a set of constraints in her relationship with Tyrion that Bronn is not, and that Shae's "alternative" to not testifying at Tyrion's trial was likely very unpleasant indeed, and that these things should be taken into account before automatically condemning her.

:agree: The fact that Shae broke Tyrion's heart in such a public and humiliating way and that we see the scene through Tyrion's POV is bound to make people feel sorry for him and hate her. What she did was bloody cruel, however we never see her feelings expressed towards Tyrion. Shae cannot be blamed for Tyrion falling in love with an act he demanded she put on. He never actually treated her as a person, or thought about her feelings. He did however think about his "fantasy girlfriend" and their relationship and the feelings he projected on to her.

The fact that the "fantasy girlfriend" was a real flesh and blood person underneath all that,was something he did not want to acknowledge. He also wanted to convince himself that she at least liked him (and given the circumstances of his life, I can understand why). Shae cannot be blamed for this however. He asked her to play a part and she did and then he was heartbroken to discover she had been playing a part all along.

There is an initial double standard in how her and Bronn are treated by Tyrion. He never asks Bronn to play the role of a Chivalrous Knight for example. Bronn was always allowed to be Bronn. Shae was only ever allowed to be Tysha 2.0.

Also I do think Bronn actually liked Tyrion. The terms were good and he was a good employer for him. Trying to see it from Shae's POV is tricky, because we don't have one. What we can piece together is what is said in other POVs and by other characters. Shae is firstly asked to play a part which she does. She is paid for this in Clothes and Jewelry. Things then become dangerous in KL. At this point Bronn had could have left if he wished to. Shae however is in a house with guards and no company and then has her earnings seized by her employer and told she must work as a maid. She protests and he hits her. There is a completely different power balance here.

During her time as a maid to Lollys, she must befriend Symon enough to tell him about her and Tyrion. To me that reads that she at least liked him. He was another horrible individual and blackmailer, however he was probably her friend. Tyrion then has him killed and made into stew. If your employer killed one of your friends, how would you feel about them? Next Tyrion marries Sansa and makes Shae his new wife's maid. A wife who makes it clear to everybody that she wants nothing to do with him. Shae mean while has to cope with being a maid to her John's wife (that's humiliating folks, every bit as the Giant of a Lannister line) and then gets to comfort Tyrion as he complains about his life in general. Shae I think may have actually grown to hate him over the months previous to the trial (she also may not, due to lacking a POV). Either way, she owed him no loyalty whatsoever and he should not have expected it. He is not surprised that Bronn refuses to fight the Mountain for instance.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to watching "Teeth" and planning my destruction of the entire male gender, and like, doing evil women's lib and shit.

:lmao: Mwahaha!!!!!!!!

Neither of these is particularly likely to endear her to us, looking back. All we ever see is her bad side. For the same reason, nobody hates Jaime (who tried to kill Bran and did kill Eddard's guards) or Arya (who kills quite a few people): they do more than enough to make up for it.

Lots of people including myself loath Jaime and do not buy into his redemption arc at all. Similarly Arya is for me is almost becoming as questionable in her behaviour as Tyrion.

[littlespider]

There is an initial double standard in how her and Bronn are treated by Tyrion. He never asks Bronn to play the role of a Chivalrous Knight for example. Bronn was always allowed to be Bronn. Shae was only ever allowed to be Tysha 2.0.

Now I'd have loved to see some "role-playing" between Tyrion and Bronn. :devil:

[Fearsome Fred]

This sort of thing gets said a lot in the Shae thread, that "okay I can see her lying and saying he and sansa plotted to murder joffrey, but I draw the line at her telling truthful yet embarrassing details of their sex life." I fully agree that revealing that he liked to be called a giant is not a nice thing to do.

I think it is also overlooked that she did not volunteer the private details of their sex life. Prince Oberyn asked her to provide them.

[Scylla]

Dark Sister : How is it "arrogant" for him to kill her?

I don't think it is arrogant of Tyrion to kill Shae. On the previous thread I gave the reasons why I thought Tyrion was always going to kill Shae as part of the storyline.

I do think it is arrogant of him to have killed the Bard in the pies. Yes, the man may have been a blackmailer and a nasty piece of work but Tyrion HAD other options. He could have finally heeded the warnings about Shae and moved her to safety.. he could have paid off the Bard.

Instead he chose that his pleasure in Shae was more important than another man's life.

To me that is the epitome of arrogance.

Not to fear however Tyrion's certainly not the only character to suffer from it's affliction :)

As for my views on Bronn.

Bronn is nothing but an agent of Tyrion and he does everything that Tyrion wishes he could do it had he not been born a dwarf and could use a sword anywhere near as well as his brother.

As non POV characters Bronn is the agent and Shae is the mirror to Tyrion's moral decline.

[Scylla]

Dark Sister... again with the Giant of Lannister?!?

I think that Shae resorted to those words out of fear and shock at seeing him there, her immediate reaction was to make a response that PREVIOUSLY had had an extremely positive reaction from Tyrion. She resorts to form and tries to use her sexuality and 'whoredom' to please Tyrion, again for me this just further demonstrates for me how little actual relationship she had with Tyrion.

Because she failed utterly to understand him enough to realise that after her testimony in court those words would have assumed an completely different meaning and context for Tyrion.

I also think the GRRM has a meaning in those words for us... that Tyrion is indeed a 'Giant of Lannister', despite the irony inherent in the statement given his twisted physical form, he embodies everything that the House of Lannister is writ large.