If Bran's prophecy is true, Jon is dead, at best undead.

[Silmarien]

I think I would actually be ok with this (of course, the Others would win and rule Westeros xD) an awesome twist to the predictable story :D

And about Bran's prophecy, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that Jon is dead, he could be in a coma and he would look almost like he is dead.

Damn, I really think people who are rooting for this "Jon becomes undead" and/or "Jon becomes Night King" must hate the character. What a sad ending for Jon. I want to see him with a family and happy at the end, not as a wight/WW/Other. IMHO, I guess.

I don't need the story to "twist" for it to be interesting. The interesting and fascinating part is how everybody in the story (hopefully) unites to save Westeros from the Others (whether they're all evil or just inhuman, or even sympathetic to an extent). We already have so many opposing characters with varying interests - why do we need poor Jon to become Night King or undead to have our other characters fight against. More drama? I'd say there's enough of that going on.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My interpretation of Bran's vision in AGOT is that he is being shown everything that is happening in real time a that moment. Catelyn is on a ship heading to King's Landing. Sansa is crying herself to sleep every night because Lady was just killed. Arya is holding secrets (Nymeria is still alive) close to her heart. And Jon is at the Wall, which was something Bran didn't know before he fell, and it is cold there.

It does sound ominous, but I don't take it as a glimpse of the future because nothing else there really was.

And yes, the great prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World - R.I.P. Rhaego - didn't turn out like the crones thought. And there is always what Marwyn said about prophecy...

That's how I read it, too. The things Bran sees are all, arguably, happening at that time. The big exception is the vision that seems to point to UnGregor.

There's plenty of talk about how in the Night's Watch, you "forget what it's like to be warm." Jon could be very much alive — completely independent of what happened to him — and just, literally, freaking freezing.

[Ser Lepus]

So would a daughter though. Tormund brought up the prospect of having a girl who was kissed by fire but he automatically assumes that he would have a boy twice. He seems to specifically desire for a son. He later said that he could name his son with Val Robb. That child wouldn't have been a bastard because Stannis wanted them to marry.

As a bastard and as a member of the Night Watch, he tends to think of children in terms of legitimacy (because he is a bastard and thought that any children he could ever have would be a bastard too), and when he thinks of bastardry and legitimacy always ends thinking of his own situation.

When somebody tells him of having a children, knowing he/she would be a bastard, he thinks of his own suffering and identifies with it. That´s the reason he thinks of the child as male.

Later, when he is offered the possibility of leaving the Night Watch and be legitimized, he thinks of that child, that wouldn´t be a bastard, and again thinks "I could have a child that wouldn´t be a bastard!", and thinks of the suffering that his child wouldn´t have to endure, and is identifying again with him.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

For me, Jon's arc needs to end with him having a family of his own. He's lost the Starks, never really had a mother figure to begin with, and has now isolated himself (and may have been killed by) his brother's of the nights watch. I don't see it happening though. If anything, I think he'll survive this just so he can die at the end of the series, probably sacrificing himself in some way to save everybody else. I think that's almost a definite. The ending will be happy for westeros, but someone the fans adore is going to die, and I'm guessing it will be him. Solitude just seems to be his thing unfortunately.

[ARYa_Nym]

As a bastard and as a member of the Night Watch, he tends to think of children in terms of legitimacy (because he is a bastard and thought that any children he could ever have would be a bastard too), and when he thinks of bastardry and legitimacy always ends thinking of his own situation.

When somebody tells him of having a children, knowing he/she would be a bastard, he thinks of his own suffering and identifies with it. That´s the reason he thinks of the child as male.

Later, when he is offered the possibility of leaving the Night Watch and be legitimized, he thinks of that child, that wouldn´t be a bastard, and again thinks "I could have a child that wouldn´t be a bastard!", and thinks of the suffering that his child wouldn´t have to endure, and is identifying again with him.

He specifically says that a son was something that he never dared dream of since joining the NW. This to me implies that it's something that he wants but due to his circumstances he knows that he should not.

[Silmarien]

I still can't help but think Dany and Jon end up together. Too much seems to be pointing there, the prophecy with the wall and blue flower etc, the song of ice and fire seeming to push those two together. Even a scene from the last Dany chapter I read in ASOS made me wonder if it meant Jon:

"Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."

Of course, that may not mean anything, or it might apply to Dario, but altogether I think there will definitely be a meeting between them at some point in the next two books. I refuse to believe that GRRM dragged Jon's story through 5 goddamn books just for him to die in such an insignificant way at the end. George may end up in a similar situation to Jon if he kills him off like that :P

This.

Why spend all the intrigue on Jon's parentage if he's just gonna end up a Wight/WW/Other and fight humanity? If Old Nan's stories are true, the Others destroy all living things. I don't understand why people are cool with Jon joining a group like this...

ETA: This interpretation also negates Jon's dream of holding a red sword in ice armor, killing the wights of people he knew and loved who are dead (Ygritte, Robb, etc).

[Ser Lepus]

He specifically says that a son was something that he never dared dream of since joining the NW. This to me implies that it's something that he wants but due to his circumstances he knows that he should not.

He said at the beginning of the book that he wouldn´t never father a bastard, and he says so precisely because he thinks of the suffering the child would endure, just like him.

[ARYa_Nym]

He said at the beginning of the book that he wouldn´t never father a bastard, and he says so precisely because he thinks of the suffering the child would endure, just like him.

He told that to Benjen. Benjen said you haven't known a woman yet.

He said a son was something he never dared dream of when he was thinking about marrying Val so this child wasn't going to be a bastard.

EDIT: & I think Benjen was completely right in that Jon was too young to know what he wanted then. Now that he's known "love" he wants a family deep down but he knows that he shouldn't want this as a member of the NW. He expressed regret in ADWD for not choosing Val.

"Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father's name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard's sort of honor."

[koftroy]

I think this "death" is how Jon realizes how powerful he is as a Warg. I believe this is why Mel sees him ghost and Jon again. Jon had already started to feel like he could not separate himself from Ghost. Mel tells him to accept who he is but he was always thinking I am a man.

I also do not ever see Jon with Dany...those dragons will have to come to destroy the Other's, but he will end up with a wildling, if anyone at all. Ghost is very tame with Val, and I love when he sees them come out of the trees, in the snow. And she is wearing all white, and he says how beautiful she is, and I think part of that is how Ghost reacts to her.

Bran's visions are a lot like Dany's, but not as vague, as he sees more since he is a greenseer, that is what he is, right?

[koftroy]

Good points.

However, I think in AGOT that a struggle to adjust to life on the Wall was manifest. Think about when Jon first arrived and quickly made enemies among the other new recruits (as well as Thorne) because of his "lordly" behavior (Donal Noye warned him about this, basically telling him to smarten up or risk being knifed in his sleep). This attitude seemingly might have been in response to the harsh reality regarding the Wall and the NW, revealed to him by Tyrion en route to Castle Black.

Furthermore, in regards to Jon's memories of Winterfell, there is that dream (or nightmare?) he revealed to Sam regarding the crypts of Winterfell a little bit later on as well. In short, this one instance proves that not all of Jon's memories/thoughts... conscious or otherwise... of Winterfell were sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere.

I do agree with you that he still holds a soft spot in his heart for Winterfell and his siblings, and there are instances where he almost abandons his vows. But he never follows through (with the exception of his reaction upon receiving the Pink Letter). I think Jon's thoughts on Winterfell are not as black and white as you suggested in your post, and that Bran's prophecy/dream/vision of him might signify a struggle to transition from a life at Winterfell to a life in the NW.

Yes...he even says in front of Sam while he is working out with his sword that he was going to make the Lannisters pay. He has honor to a fault like his father, but his thoughts have always strayed to vengeance for his siblings.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think that liking his wolf is very important. Robb should have paid attention to that.

Even Ygritte didn't comfort him when Ghost was gone.

"He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone."

^He feels lonely without his wolf. Dany felt lonely when she heard the howl of a wolf.

"Ghost was closer than a friend. Ghost was part of him."

"Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white...her long braid the color of dark honey...It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely."

Val is blonde but wouldn't Dany match with Ghost more with her silver hair?

I think Ghost was one of the ways Mel tried to appeal to him. I think she did something to make him like her because he didn't recognize Jon after she touched him.

"Ghost," he called. "To me." The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger."

The one good thing is that Mel will probably keep Ghost safe while Jon is incapacitated.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

"One shadow was dark as ash,with the terrible face of a hound.Another was armoured like the sun,golden and beautiful.Over them both loomed a giant in armour made of stone,but when he opened his visor,there was nothing inside but darkness and thick,black blood"

The description of Gregor sounds more like a description of Robert Strong to me.Even if Gregor is not Robert Strong,the vision seems futuristic and accurate.

FWIW, I think the giant in stone armour is Littlefinger (family is from Braavos) and the blood and smoke symbolizes the lies he told, the secrecy he operates in, and the deaths he caused, which were contemporary with the other events in Bran's vision.

Yeah, I think Jon will die too, and I haz a sad already, just thinking about it.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Damn, I really think people who are rooting for this "Jon becomes undead" and/or "Jon becomes Night King" must hate the character. What a sad ending for Jon. I want to see him with a family and happy at the end, not as a wight/WW/Other. IMHO, I guess.

I don't need the story to "twist" for it to be interesting. The interesting and fascinating part is how everybody in the story (hopefully) unites to save Westeros from the Others (whether they're all evil or just inhuman, or even sympathetic to an extent). We already have so many opposing characters with varying interests - why do we need poor Jon to become Night King or undead to have our other characters fight against. More drama? I'd say there's enough of that going on.

Jon is my favorite character so no, I don't hate him trust me. I'm not rooting for him to become undead, I just think it would be an entertaining twist for his story. Besides, we don't know that much about the Others to know if Westeros needs to be saved from them. Anyway, I'll always choose a dark end before something like Jon and Daenerys riding dragons saving the world and shooting rainbows out their asses.

[alienarea]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but:

"... his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him..." does not literally say that all warmth fled from him (i.e. he's dying) but the memory of all warmth. Since it is from AGoT it can simply be understood as Jon becoming a member of the NW and the warmth of his former life in Winterfell will vanish.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but:

"... his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him..." does not literally say that all warmth fled from him (i.e. he's dying) but the memory of all warmth. Since it is from AGoT it can simply be understood as Jon becoming a member of the NW and the warmth of his former life in Winterfell will vanish.

Yes, I agree, Bran could see Jon sleeping alone and feeling that all the warmth he knew before is slowly going away since the Wall is such a cold place, and I'm not talking only about the wall of ice but the life s a brother of the NW.

[Black Crow]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but:

"... his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him..." does not literally say that all warmth fled from him (i.e. he's dying) but the memory of all warmth. Since it is from AGoT it can simply be understood as Jon becoming a member of the NW and the warmth of his former life in Winterfell will vanish.

Compare Bran's vision of Jon becoming cold with the Jon chapter immediately following:

"Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here... The chill was always with him here. in a few years, he would forget what it felt like to be warm"

[redriver]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but:

"... his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him..." does not literally say that all warmth fled from him (i.e. he's dying) but the memory of all warmth. Since it is from AGoT it can simply be understood as Jon becoming a member of the NW and the warmth of his former life in Winterfell will vanish.

This of course could turn out to be the case.Though there's something insidious about the phrase "the memory of all warmth".

In some ways I hope I'm wrong about the whole topic.

[Great Other]

This is from the citadel:

V: 769 - His Blade Burned Red

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The Armor part is a bit strange,maybe related to his death and the blade is Lightbringer.I think Jon will master both elements,Ice and Fire,and Ygritte is a symbol for Daenerys.You know,Jon kills Dany...(I'm not sure of this,though it would have been better a Clash of Queens between Asha and Dany).

EDIT:For Daenerys this could be the Betrayal of Love.

[idiotking]

Damn, I really think people who are rooting for this "Jon becomes undead" and/or "Jon becomes Night King" must hate the character. What a sad ending for Jon. I want to see him with a family and happy at the end, not as a wight/WW/Other. IMHO, I guess.

Errr... you're reading ASOIAF and imagining happy endings just because you like a character? Paging Sansa...

"... his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him..." does not literally say that all warmth fled from him (i.e. he's dying) but the memory of all warmth. Since it is from AGoT it can simply be understood as Jon becoming a member of the NW and the warmth of his former life in Winterfell will vanish.

No no no no no no NO!

Here's the problem that I have with that whole interpretation...

WHERE in the books is there any indication of a change in Jon's behavior that would show him "forgetting his roots" as it were, and psychologically distancing himself from his past? More importantly, where in the MANY Jon POV chapters do we get any hint of that going on?

In fact, there's plenty of instances of the exact OPPOSITE of what you and others are suggesting! How often do we hear Jon, in his POVs, remember Winterfell, words of wisdom from Ned or from Robb, joking around with Arya? How hard is it for him to hold back from running off and breaking his vows, so that he can avenge his family?

The ONLY textual support for these "it's symbolic of..." views comes from Black Crow (and I think him for the excellent catch):

Compare Bran's vision of Jon becoming cold with the Jon chapter immediately following:

"Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here... The chill was always with him here. in a few years, he would forget what it felt like to be warm"

See, now, I could get behind THIS interpretation, which is simply "he's seeing what IS -- namely, Jon being at the Wall, which is a friggin' cold place!" :)

[Tormund Member]

I wanted to comment on a number of posts predicting Jon to become undead, either an Other or a wight. Do they think he will be placed in the cells with the other two? How does he get the 'virus' if he is south of the wall and stabbed by mortal men? My assumptipon is that it takes a wight or other to create a new wight. I would be more inclined to believe the Ghost warg theory and he watches his body eventually heal, providing Ghost escapes, unlike Grey or Lady...