Shae's Lies.

[ShadowRaven]

Only read to the part where you accuse Tyrion of wanting the throne.

Lol?

[Woman of War]

The point where I have to agree: if one of my children had just been murdered right beside me I would freak out, like Cersei did, and maybe implicate the first person that might have a reason to murder In my eyes and that is close by. In that case it is Tyrion. Cersei may truly have believed in Tyrion's guilt, not with much deduction but under shock. But this thread is about the question if Shae truly believed in the accusations she made against Tyrion and Sansa. And no, she could not believe anything of it because she did not know anything. Some posters have quoted how Tyrion expressly spoke against murdering his sister in Shae's presence.

And let's not forget that Shae definitely disliked Sansa and so had no compunction at all to implicate this girl that was still a child.

[Alexia]

Interesting argument. I find it less that persuasive in regard to Shae's background (I think she was clearly working as a prostitute and had been for some time when Bronn rounds her up for Tyrion at the Green Fork) and i'm split on the issue of whether she believed Tyrion to be guilty - I think its plausible she came around to it, since as the OP says, everyone thought so, and it's only us, with our look inside the heads of both Sansa and Tyrion, that know how far fetched the notion that they cooperated on an assassination is. Here I vacillate between two different readings of Shae, that I can't seem to coalesce - either she's fairly gullible, shallow and short sighted, in which case she simply wasn't paying attention and, hey, why not? In my other reading she is more canny and observant, (which we have some evidence for) though I don't think she's a spy, and realizes she's walking a tightrope as Tyrions mistress and does a lot more to actively manipulate his fantasies, in which case I can see her having a good enough grasp of the personalities involved to have a personal opinion as to Tyrion's guilt.

What I do find a really good angle of argument, which I haven't come across before, is that Shae found Tyrion a villanious and oppressive figure before things went south with Joffreys death, (the murder of Simon, the violence, the possessiveness and cavalier use of her body. The idea that she overheard the conversation at the Green Fork is also intriguing) which would naturally predispose her to think him capable of the murder (and yes, he does have a motive and she knows it.) I'm pretty sure she didn't enjoy sex with him either.

Yeah, I see Shae as an experienced prostitute. I have trouble seeing a young woman who isn't pretty hardened being able to convincingly fake loving it the way that Shae does, moments after her abduction, and she also invests time and effort into trying to better her situation through Tyrion. That for me is the biggest strike against the squire story too -- although maybe he did make promises to her, who knows?

I'm definitely agreeing that Shae didn't like Tyrion. There were the guards he posted, his habit of interpreting innocent comments the wrong way ("have you ever played monsters and maidens?" "are you calling me a monster?"), goodness alone knows what Bronn said to her when he was telling her who and what Tyrion was, taking away the payment that he had given her and making it very clear that he never intended to return it to her, and so on and so forth.

[Silmarien]

Silmarien wrote:

Yes. I pointed out that her testimony on that point is uncontradicted.

You also challenged me to come up with a prior occasion when he seems to have hurt her during sex, and I successfully answered your challenge.

I have also pointed out that on this prior occasion, Tyrion did not remember his actions during sex.

I have also pointed out a prior occasion where Tyrion fantasized about Power while having sex with Shae.

This is not an argument but a conclusory statement. You are making a grand statement about what GRRM would or would not do, as though it were fact.

It also ignores the possibility that Tyrion is not entirely aware of what he says or does during sex, as when he left bite-marks on Shae's breasts.

But I will give a counter-example. Do you believe that Cersei is lying when he says that Sansa blabbed to her, because GRRM does not skip stuff? Or is it possible Cersei told the truth.

So, you are saying that if Tyrion is not a cartoon villain, he cannot be a villain at all, nor even a deeply flawed hero?

The theme of my post is not to paint Tyrion as black as Ramsay and Gregor (is that really the standard?), but rather to suggest the possibility that Shae's perceptions of him and testimony about him represent her sincere outlook. My post is not about how God will judge Tyrion's soul, but about how Shae might have perceived Tyrion.

No, I don't believe Cersei is lying about Sansa blabbing, because Sansa confirms it in her POV.

Bite marks (that didn't leave her bleeding and raw) don't mean violence, necessarily, unless Shae objected. I'm sure you'll argue "oh but she's a sex slave and wouldn't ever DARE contradict Tyrion! She's so afraid!" I'd counter with - "Well....then why in GOD'S NAME would Shae try to ask Tyrion to be his wife, and bear him sons?"

[Silmarien]

Silmarien wrote:

Yes. I pointed out that her testimony on that point is uncontradicted.

You also challenged me to come up with a prior occasion when he seems to have hurt her during sex, and I successfully answered your challenge.

I have also pointed out that on this prior occasion, Tyrion did not remember his actions during sex.

I have also pointed out a prior occasion where Tyrion fantasized about Power while having sex with Shae.

This is not an argument but a conclusory statement. You are making a grand statement about what GRRM would or would not do, as though it were fact.

It also ignores the possibility that Tyrion is not entirely aware of what he says or does during sex, as when he left bite-marks on Shae's breasts.

But I will give a counter-example. Do you believe that Cersei is lying when he says that Sansa blabbed to her, because GRRM does not skip stuff? Or is it possible Cersei told the truth.

So, you are saying that if Tyrion is not a cartoon villain, he cannot be a villain at all, nor even a deeply flawed hero?

The theme of my post is not to paint Tyrion as black as Ramsay and Gregor (is that really the standard?), but rather to suggest the possibility that Shae's perceptions of him and testimony about him represent her sincere outlook. My post is not about how God will judge Tyrion's soul, but about how Shae might have perceived Tyrion.

Of coure I do not think Tyrion is a saint. He's a deeply flawed protagonist. Just not a sexually violent one until ADWD, IMO.

You are using quotes out of context to fit your argument that Shae didn't "lie" at all. Why bother? Does it matter whether she lied? She ended up killed, and that's horrible. It's horrible that Tyrion killed her. We don't need to twist the facts of the story to come to this conclusion.

[Evamitchelle]

No, I don't believe Cersei is lying about Sansa blabbing, because Sansa confirms it in her POV.

Bite marks (that didn't leave her bleeding and raw) don't mean violence, necessarily, unless Shae objected. I'm sure you'll argue "oh but she's a sex slave and wouldn't ever DARE contradict Tyrion! She's so afraid!" I'd counter with - "Well....then why in GOD'S NAME would Shae try to ask Tyrion to be his wife, and bear him sons?"

Because being the wife of the (supposed) heir to Casterly Rock is a massive step-up from being a camp follower ?

[Woman of War]

I'm definitely agreeing that Shae didn't like Tyrion. There were the guards he posted, his habit of interpreting innocent comments the wrong way ("have you ever played monsters and maidens?" "are you calling me a monster?"), goodness alone knows what Bronn said to her when he was telling her who and what Tyrion was, taking away the payment that he had given her and making it very clear that he never intended to return it to her, and so on and so forth.

Bite marks (that didn't leave her bleeding and raw) don't mean violence, necessarily, unless Shae objected. I'm sure you'll argue "oh but she's a sex slave and wouldn't ever DARE contradict Tyrion! She's so afraid!" I'd counter with - "Well....then why in GOD'S NAME would Shae try to ask Tyrion to be his wife, and bear him sons?"

it is just incredible how two posters can find absolutely correctly quoted text evidence to prove right the contrary of each others' arguments, always supporting their given personal conviction, without getting ugly or anything. And I stll have not found the answer why debates including the character Tyrion so often invite to love or hate opinions even in reasonable posters..... Just saying, a bit off topic.

[Fryie]

I have children of my own.

But they're probably no Joffrey. Even not knowing you, I just assume you're not as horrible a mother as to raise such a monstrous child.

.. but seriously, no matter what - this attitude is what annoys me. Parenthood is not - never, ever - an excuse for excusing everything your child does. As a child I found myself very often in stupid quarrels with other children where their mothers and fathers instisted (even without having witnessed anything) that their child was in the right, whereas my parents were the ones to tell me that maybe, maybe it had been me who made a mistake. This made me very angry at the time, yet in hindsight it might have made me a better person.

Cersei may have had every right to be in tears, unbelieving, in shock, whatever - but randomly blaming someone else without any shred of evidence, just based on possible motive? Had she thought two inches further than that, she would have noticed that many others had ample reason for wanting to kill Joffrey.

[Woman of War]

Because being the wife of the (supposed) heir to Casterly Rock is a massive step-up from being a camp follower ?

Then Tyrion was certainly not seen as so very disgusting by Shae, she has not been afraid of him until the very last moment - or the career opportunity was definitely worth the risk. A reasonable decision in a camp follower, but she could have taken the opportunity offered by Tyrion himself to leave or to marry someone else. She knew about the danger she was in, Tyrion told her about his father and she decided to stay. Shae saw Tyrion either as the opportunity of her life or she felt no reason to fear Tywin because she was his hired spy.

[The King in the South]

But they're probably no Joffrey. Even not knowing you, I just assume you're not as horrible a mother as to raise such a monstrous child.

.. but seriously, no matter what - this attitude is what annoys me. Parenthood is not - never, ever - an excuse for excusing everything your child does. As a child I found myself very often in stupid quarrels with other children where their mothers and fathers instisted (even without having witnessed anything) that their child was in the right, whereas my parents were the ones to tell me that maybe, maybe it had been me who made a mistake. This made me very angry at the time, yet in hindsight it might have made me a better person.

Cersei may have had every right to be in tears, unbelieving, in shock, whatever - but randomly blaming someone else without any shred of evidence, just based on possible motive? Had she thought two inches further than that, she would have noticed that many others had ample reason for wanting to kill Joffrey.

It's not like she had Tyrion killed on the spot...she thought him the most likely murderer so she accused him and he had a trial.

For all we know someone whispered five minutes beforehand to her that they just saw Tyrion put something in Joffrey's cup.

Expecting a mother to act completely rational when her child has just died=a little idiotic to be honest.

[Evamitchelle]

Cersei may have had every right to be in tears, unbelieving, in shock, whatever - but randomly blaming someone else without any shred of evidence, just based on possible motive? Had she thought two inches further than that, she would have noticed that many others had ample reason for wanting to kill Joffrey.

There was a ton of evidence pointing towards Tyrion's guilt. Not only has he threatened and physically assaulted Joffrey countless times in the past, he was also standing right next to Joffrey when he was poisoned and happened to possess some poisons of his own. That's hardly a random accusation. Tyrion had means, motive and opportunity. By the end of the trial pretty much everybody was convinced of Tyrion's guilt, even Pod.

[Fryie]

It's not like she had Tyrion killed on the spot...she thought him the most likely murderer so she accused him and he had a trial.

For all we know someone whispered five minutes beforehand to her that they just saw Tyrion put something in Joffrey's cup.

Expecting a mother to act completely rational when her child has just died=a little idiotic to be honest.

Perhaps it is, but she'd have had plenty of time to act rationally before with respect to Joffrey. She never did, not once did she see what a wicked creature he was. Had she seen it, maybe his death would have been avoided (probably not, seeing as it's all Littlefinger's plan, though). But never once afterwards does she reflect on something like this. Therefore, I think that Cersei's being convinced of Tyrion's guilt is not an indication of anything else than that she has no clue whatsoever.

[Fryie]

There was a ton of evidence pointing towards Tyrion's guilt. Not only has he threatened and physically assaulted Joffrey countless times in the past, he was also standing right next to Joffrey when he was poisoned and happened to possess some poisons of his own. That's hardly a random accusation. Tyrion had means, motive and opportunity. By the end of the trial pretty much everybody was convinced of Tyrion's guilt, even Pod.

By the end of the trial. Not before, though.

And who knows what might have happened if Cersei had said "Take Margaery captive, she's the poisoner" instead.

[Woman of War]

But they're probably no Joffrey. Even not knowing you, I just assume you're not as horrible a mother as to raise such a monstrous child.

.. but seriously, no matter what - this attitude is what annoys me. Parenthood is not - never, ever - an excuse for excusing everything your child does. As a child I found myself very often in stupid quarrels with other children where their mothers and fathers instisted (even without having witnessed anything) that their child was in the right, whereas my parents were the ones to tell me that maybe, maybe it had been me who made a mistake. This made me very angry at the time, yet in hindsight it might have made me a better person.

Cersei may have had every right to be in tears, unbelieving, in shock, whatever - but randomly blaming someone else without any shred of evidence, just based on possible motive? Had she thought two inches further than that, she would have noticed that many others had ample reason for wanting to kill Joffrey.

I hope no parent here has a child like Joffrey but if someone had asked Cersei she would have been convinced that she had a somewhat spoiled but rather brilliant boy. As a mother she lacked the ability to distance herself from her kids to have a detached look at their flaws or posiibilities - so IN HER EYES nobody had a reason to kill Joffrey. Cersei was far from being a capable parent but she loved her kids.

So, Fryie, you are absolutely right - in theory

But in no way I wanted to support the somewhat farfetched arguments by a few posters that Tyrion was only accused of having done something he intended to do anyway. Minority Report? Nineteen eighty four? The trial was a farce and Shae gave false testimony.

[Evamitchelle]

By the end of the trial. Not before, though.

And who knows what might have happened if Cersei had said "Take Margaery captive, she's the poisoner" instead.

But Cersei was a witness/knew about most of the things that were brought up during the trial. She knew about Pycelle and the poisons for example, she was there as well when Tyrion kicked/slapped Joffrey after the riot and at the wedding she couldn't fail to notice that Tyrion was Joffrey's cup-bearer. Add to that the Maegi's prophecy and I think it's perfectly reasonable for Cersei to believe Tyrion guilty.

[Fryie]

Except she just didn't know him. Why did Jaime believe Tyrion is innocent? Because he knows him. Cersei never once bothered. Plus, a prophecy really isn't an argument for anything.

So yeah, character-wise it makes sense for Cersei to be certain of Tyrion's guilt, but that does not mean that it's a valuable judgement.

[The King in the South]

Perhaps it is, but she'd have had plenty of time to act rationally before with respect to Joffrey. She never did, not once did she see what a wicked creature he was. Had she seen it, maybe his death would have been avoided (probably not, seeing as it's all Littlefinger's plan, though). But never once afterwards does she reflect on something like this. Therefore, I think that Cersei's being convinced of Tyrion's guilt is not an indication of anything else than that she has no clue whatsoever.

I don't think people are arguing Cersei is a good person here, but no one can deny she loved Joffrey in her own way. (And thus was devastated when he died)

[Fryie]

No, I wasn't gonna deny that either.

But I'm not arguing that she's a bad person, I'm just arguing that she's a bad judge of what really happened.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

But Cersei was a witness/knew about most of the things that were brought up during the trial. She knew about Pycelle and the poisons for example, she was there as well when Tyrion kicked/slapped Joffrey after the riot and at the wedding she couldn't fail to notice that Tyrion was Joffrey's cup-bearer. Add to that the Maegi's prophecy and I think it's perfectly reasonable for Cersei to believe Tyrion guilty.

It just added to her paranioa. Cercei is paranoid and delusional and nothing would have convinced her that Tyrion was innocent. Whatever evidence that would have shown the contrary, she would disregard and come up with her own Cercei styled rationalization as to why it was a lie. She made Joffrey into the moster that he was and chose to be oblivious to it because in her mind she is always right and everyone else is wrong.

[Evamitchelle]

Except she just didn't know him. Why did Jaime believe Tyrion is innocent? Because he knows him. Cersei never once bothered. Plus, a prophecy really isn't an argument for anything.

So yeah, character-wise it makes sense for Cersei to be certain of Tyrion's guilt, but that does not mean that it's a valuable judgement.

Your original argument was that Cersei accusing Tyrion of Kingslaying was random and ludicrous, I don't think it was. The fact that everybody after that trial believes in Tyrion's guilt (only Shae's testimony was fabricated, and she was the last one to talk - Pod was convinced of Tyrion's guilt before Shae ever testified) shows that considering Tyrion guilty really isn't that unreasonable.

And prophecies in Westeros do matter. Aegon V arranged the marriage between Aerys and Rhaegar because of what the woods witch said, Jojen helps the Starks because of his green dreams, Melisandre helps Stannis because of the Azor Ahai prophecy, Aemon wanted to help Dany because of the same prophecy, Dany acts according to what she was told at the House of the Undying or by Quaithe, MMD kills Rhaego because of the Stallion who mounts the World prophecy etc. etc. In our world it would be ludicrous to act according to such things, but not in Westeros. Many sensible characters are more than willing to give credit to prophecies.