kissdbyfire Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 My theory... due to body structure, booming voice, heart tree shield..... it was the wolf pup.... :cheers:One last thing, note that Johen is clearly dubious about the fact that Bran hasn't heard the story before as if he expected to be frequently told..... why is that?Because with his father and uncles and aunt being in it, it's just plain odd that he hasn't heard a word about it before, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Because with his father and uncles and aunt being in it, it's just plain odd that he hasn't heard a word about it before, IMO.Exactly, it's odd, but Johen also seems surprised.... "Are you certain you never heard this tale before Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"He asks if he is certain, imo he expects Bran to have heard it, maybe somehow it's important. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prays2Trees Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 If you don't think it's Lyanna, then you're throwing a major monkey wrench into R+L=J. That I will not tolerate. Why would Howland be able to handle himself well in a tournament but NOT be able to defend himself from some squires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I didn't say it was Howland either. Read my previous post. Honestly I can't tell who was but I made a wild guess that it was the wolf pup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavos Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I think its confirmed by Barristan in a later book that Ashara danced with a Stark, Jon Connington and the Red Viper, will try and find the evidence to support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Exactly, it's odd, but Johen also seems surprised.... "Are you certain you never heard this tale before Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"He asks if he is certain, imo he expects Bran to have heard it, maybe somehow it's important. Just my opinion.But again, what information could that story contain that Ned would like to suppress? Particularly if it isn't about Jon (and, hence, Lyanna).As for Benjen: Benjen had his own suit of armour with him, but the Knight of the Laughing Tree's armour didn't fit. Why would Benjen take a non-fitting armour if he had a fitting one readily available? Non-fitting armour impedes your movement and is hence a disadvantage at a joust...ETA: Now if you're saying the KotLT was wearing Benjen's armour, we'd agree... but then it can't be Benjen, as explained above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I find it hard to beleive that a woman defeated three of the last five contenders. I mean they had to be really good to make it to the top five. Even if Lyanna was a good rider and had some sword training it's irreleventant to jousting.It is stated on two separate occasions that jousting is all about horsemanship. It is also stated that Lyanna was an excellent rider (in one case, this fact is mentioned in the exact same passage in which jousting's relationship to horsemanship is also mentioned). It's pretty clear, IMO, that the author is laying the groundwork for explaining how Lyanna was such a good jouster.Also the booming voice.... it would be hilarious hearing her mimicing a man's voice.[...]My theory... due to body structure, booming voice, heart tree shield..... it was the wolf pup.... :cheers:Hmmm...depending on how old Benjen was, he may not have had a very deep voice himself. Given that Lyanna was around 13-14 at Harrenhal, I'd say Benjen was most likely 12-13 at the oldest. Is it possible for children to develop deep voices by those ages? I know I didn't, as I was still a soprano until about age 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 But again, what information could that story contain that Ned would like to suppress? Particularly if it isn't about Jon (and, hence, Lyanna).As for Benjen: Benjen had his own suit of armour with him, but the Knight of the Laughing Tree's armour didn't fit. Why would Benjen take a non-fitting armour if he had a fitting one readily available? Non-fitting armour impedes your movement and is hence a disadvantage at a joust...ETA: Now if you're saying the KotLT was wearing Benjen's armour, we'd agree... but then it can't be Benjen, as explained above.The Benjen theory was more like a wild guess as I said, trying basically to explain the small body structure. BTW if he was in disguise it would make sense not to wear his armour.The main point was that I don't beleive it was Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hmmm...depending on how old Benjen was, he may not have had a very deep voice himself. Given that Lyanna was around 13-14 at Harrenhal, I'd say Benjen was most likely 12-13 at the oldest. Is it possible for children to develop deep voices by those ages? I know I didn't, as I was still a soprano until about age 14.So you basically agree that wasn't Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So you basically agree that wasn't Lyanna?No, not at all. I am 99.9999% certain it was Lyanna. My point was that if you're going to discount her because the knight had a supposedly recognizable male voice, then you'd probably have to discount Benjen as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The main point was that I don't beleive it was Lyanna.Why not? At those ages she would have been bigger and stronger than Benjen. And she was supposed to be an almost pretenaturally great rider, while we heard nothing about Benjen's horsemanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 No, not at all. I am 99.9999% certain it was Lyanna. My point was that if you're going to discount her because the knight had a supposedly recognizable male voice, then you'd probably have to discount Benjen as well.So I guess you must have an explanation about the voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So I guess you must have an explanation about the voiceYes. Lyanna was pitching her voice low, and the deepness of the voice was amplified by the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Yes. Lyanna was pitching her voice low, and the deepness of the voice was amplified by the helm.Let's continue this couple quarrel a little more.... so you are willing to accept that a young woman can mimic a man's voice but not a young boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Why not? At those ages she would have been bigger and stronger than Benjen. And she was supposed to be an almost pretenaturally great rider, while we heard nothing about Benjen's horsemanship.Because I find no evidence to support it and I think it is odd for a young woman, more close to child than woman, to unhorse 3 Knights who had made it to the final five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Let's continue this couple quarrel a little more.... so you are willing to accept that a young woman can mimic a man's voice but not a young boy?No, I've never said anything of the sort. I don't think Benjen is entirely ruled out as a candidate. I just don't think you can discount Lyanna, because the reason you're using to discount her would also probably discount Benjen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 About the knights.. Based on what we know about tourney rules and etiquette, it would have been poor form for the real champions to challenge so early in the tourney. Rhaegar and the KG as well as probably Brandon Stark hadn't even taken the field yet. So we basically have a 14 year old who defeated three lesser knights. Sounds doable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragontamer Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 About the knights.. Based on what we know about tourney rules and etiquette, it would have been poor form for the real champions to challenge so early in the tourney. Rhaegar and the KG as well as probably Brandon Stark hadn't even taken the field yet. So we basically have a 14 year old who defeated three lesser knights. Sounds doable to me.Rhaegar, Barristan and the three defeated were the last five standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Because I find no evidence to support it and I think it is odd for a young woman, more close to child than woman, to unhorse 3 Knights who had made it to the final five.No evidence? OK, let's simply go by elimination here. The only real suspects are Howland Reed (the crannogman) and the Stark siblings (the wild wolf Brandon, the quiet wolf Ned, the shewolf Lyanna and the wolf pup Benjen). Do we agree so far?Then let's eliminate Brandon and Ned, who were both adults (at least, over 16) at the time. Noone would call them small. Now Howland Reed isn't much of a horse rider, as Meera stresses in the same story; so how should he win a joust? Basically, we're down to either Lyanna or Benjen. The evidence here is relatively small, but there are several points pointing towards Lyanna. First of all, noone knew Benjen as a fighter, or his armour; he was still a boy of 12 or so. His armour would have disguised him to anyone but his siblings anyway. So why not use his own armour? Then, the entire matter was way more personal for Lyanna than for Benjen; she had defended Howland from the squires; and lastly (and to counter your newest point), in the North Lyanna was well-known as a great horse rider, as Ned, Harwin and Roose Bolton all agree.Lastly, Rhaegar would hardly have kidnapped a total stranger, or even crowned a total stranger the queen of love and beauty. But it's unlikely that Lyanna and Rhaegar ever met before the tourney, with Lyanna having grown up in Winterfell. Rhaegar getting to know Lyanna at the tourney by finding out she was the mystery knight, and being impressed by her courage, makes about the most sense in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Rhaegar, Barristan and the three defeated were the last five standing.Not necessarily. It was still really early in the tourney. There was three more days of jousting after TKOTLT pulled her stunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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