The Drowned King and the Faceless Crow - Complete analysis

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Just to throw a nagging wrench into the seemingly inarguable conclusion that ECE+FM=RIPBALON...

In my reread of the Ironborn/Queensmoot chapters a couple nights ago, this passage (which was not at all on my radar during initial read) jumped out:

“Do you accuse me?” Euron asked mildly.

“Should I?” The sharpness in Asha’s voice made Victarion frown. It was dangerous to speak so to the Crow’s Eye, even when his smiling eye was shining with amusement.

“Do I command the winds?” the Crow’s Eye asked his pets.

“No, Your Grace,” said Orkwood of Orkmont.

“No man commands the winds,” said Germund Botley.

“Would that you did,” the Red Oarsman said. “You would sail wherever you liked and never be becalmed.”

- The Iron Captain, AFFC

The bolded lines pinged because I still had lingering questions about this moment from my initial read:

Tyrion could hear someone screaming from below, a thin, high voice hysterical with fear. He could hear Moqorro too. The red priest stood on the forecastle facing the storm, his staff raised above his head as he boomed a prayer. Amidships, a dozen sailors and two of the fiery fingers were struggling with tangled lines and sodden canvas, but whether they were trying to raise the sail again or pull it down he never knew. Whatever they were doing, it seemed to him a very bad idea. And so it was.

The wind returned as a whispered threat, cold and damp, brushing over his cheek, flapping the wet sail, swirling and tugging at Moqorro’s scarlet robes. Some instinct made Tyrion grab hold of the nearest rail, just in time. In the space of three heartbeats the little breeze became a howling gale. Moqorro shouted something, and green flames leapt from the dragon’s maw atop his staff to vanish in the night. Then the rains came, black and blinding, and forecastle and sterncastle both vanished behind a wall of water. Something huge flapped overhead, and Tyrion glanced up in time to see the sail taking wing, with two men still dangling from the lines. Then he heard a crack. Oh, bloody hell, he had time to think, that had to be the mast.

- Tyrion IX, ADWD

During my initial read, I highlighted the passage above and added the note:

♣ ☁ Holy shit is this dude CONTROLLING WEATHER? Did he just cause this whole fucking collapse? Is he just super bad at preventative measures? It's probably really easy to "predict" the Future at Sea when one can control the winds and water.

(❂Thought he was a Red Priest? Perhaps he came to the RT preloaded with a skillset in other elemental magic...sorta like Mel and shadowbinding?)

So all that to say...when I reread the line “No man commands the winds” I immediately loudly blurted out to no one "Moqorro does!" (Then promptly added a new reread note that said the same thing without possibly waking someone up.)

And during Victarion's chapters with Moqorro we all assume that he is a Red Priest who is able to read the flames with accuracy and precision, in contrast with Melisandre's fuzzier interpretative grasp of the symbolic visions given to her. Only...it is probably way easier to look like an extraordinarily talented predictor if one is extraordinarily talented in controlling the very elemental nature of the designated field of predictions. (Makes me wonder if he's as skilled at predicting things beyond weather/sea conditions, vessels impacted by such conditions and vague victorious circumstances that play into observable character traits of a person who wants to believe in their own greatness...)

I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that Moqorro is responsible for whipping up the fierce Balon-killing storm. But I do think there is, at minimum, some kind of suggested link between Euron Crow's Eye and this man who might actually control weather. After all...

His brother Euron had his pet wizards. Perhaps the Drowned God meant for Victarion to have one too.

Sure. The "drowned god" probably wanted you to have the dusky woman, Dusky, too. Never doubt the love of the Drowned God, Victarion*…if you do, you might have to face the fact that the puppetmaster isn't an unchallengeable deity after all. It may just be the same man who's been pulling been pulling your strings from birth. And then what'll you do??

*That goes double for you, Aeron Greyjoy.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Frist the con (disagreement). Ignoring the TGoHH prophecy for a moment, I had a problem with the idea that Balon could be killed by a FM as he was one of the three names that Stannis assigned to Melissandre's blood filled leaches. If it's coincedence, then R'Holler works in mysterious ways.

He just might. (See above, Moqorro.)

Is there some method by which Melissandre could contact another party who could commission the FM to kill Balon?

Probably not herself, directly. I've always assumed she took her gambit with the leeches because she'd already seem assurances of forthcoming death for the three kings in the flames. I don't see why it can't be true that the same force giving her the vision of Bal one's death isn't also the same force that causes it to happen in the first place.

It's easier to predict a future event if you're the one planning to cause it. (See above, Moqorro.)

[The Mother of The Others]

2. Euron arriving so soon after Balon's death is suspicious, because Euron is supposed to be more cunning than that and because it's seems a bit too convenient and obvious, and GRRM is way more subtle than that

Wouldn't that be so up Euron's alley?

He strikes me as very cocky. I think he'd get a thrill out of ordering the assassination of his brother, then promptly strolling back to Pyke and claiming the crown. He'd probably be laughing as he sat down on the Seastone Chair.

I took Euron's arrival the day after Balon's death as a symptom of his arrogance/cockiness too. His era has begun. Why wait? No one can stop him. He's got the inside track and now will lean on people and glare at them until they acknowledge it. It's his way of establishing dominance. He'd want everyone to suspect foul play and yet know it wasn't wise to accuse him, so that from the outset everyone would learn to fear and keep their objections to themselves and he's already won the kingsmoot before it began.

Yes, but he's also supposed to be very cunning and coming so soon makes him look as an obvious suspect of Balon's death. And in the Isles, kinslaying is a big deal (that's what stops Victarion from tearing Euron to shreds), so Euron wouldn't gain a lot of respect for being his brother's killer

That's the reason. He had courage enough to kill Balon in front of everybody, but it wouldn't have been productive. It would have gotten him banned from the throne or at least would have started a big conflict within the Iron Isles if he succeeded in grabbing the main island. He wanted to take his war to other kingdoms, not fight his own people. So Balon murder was the one murder he couldn't do himself. Couldn't pay the iron price for the throne, had to go sneaky.

another possibility has come to mind.

Maybe he didn't have to pay any price at all, maybe he saved a faceless man's life and is thus owed a debt from the many faced god.

That's new! Although I personally don't like having the Faceless permeate so many different plotlines and regional conflicts. It seems like a stretch. Isn't it actually more likely Euron used the magic of the full time crew members/slaves he's got with him----the warlocks? A shadow monster also might be construed to be a man with no face by the high heart lady. Or for that matter, what about the easiest possible explanation: no FM, no Warlock involvement, NO MAGIC is necessary here----if his ship was right there, he could have snuck a "regular human being" assassin ashore on a rowboat. That person could have snuck in using Crowseye's intimate knowledge of the castle like how to climb up to the bridge area, then they waited to shake the bridge from beneath when Balon went for a stroll to the bathroom in the poo poo tower. Isn't that really the simplest occam's razor option? Euron's forces were within striking distance, as proven by the instant arrival afterwards. So why are we assuming it had to be magic and not a ninja raid? The reference to his killer as faceless can also just mean Balon never saw it coming and his people never called it a murder, so it's like the killer was never there, a shadow, no one, non-existent and therefore faceless regardless of whether he/she was magical or not.

[Jon of the Dead]

But...but...but why a drowned crow? Euron is a godless man, and even if he was baptized in the faith of the Drowned God, he still wouldn't be a Drowned Man because only the priests like the Damphair are Drowned Men

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

 

Although I personally don't like having the Faceless permeate so many different plotlines and regional conflicts.  It seems like a stretch.  Isn't it actually more likely Euron used the magic of the full time crew members/slaves he's got with him----the warlocks? 

Well I certainly think so...

See above, Moqorro. (I swear I'm gonna knock this off.)

Or for that matter, what about the easiest possible explanation:  no FM, no Warlock involvement, NO MAGIC is necessary here----if his ship was right there, he could have snuck a "regular human being" assassin ashore on a rowboat.  That person could have snuck in using Crowseye's intimate knowledge of the castle like how to climb up to the bridge area, then they waited to shake the bridge from beneath when Balon went for a stroll to the bathroom in the poo poo tower.   Isn't that really the simplest occam's razor option?   Euron's forces were within striking distance, as proven by the instant arrival afterwards.  So why are we assuming it had to be magic and not a ninja raid?  The reference to his killer as faceless can also just mean Balon never saw it coming and his people never called it a murder, so it's like the killer was never there, a shadow, no one, non-existent and therefore faceless regardless of whether he/she was magical or not.

I can also support this interpretation simply on the grounds that it circumvents the other magical theories borne from the GoHH stuff and reminds us that ordinary, non-magical, people are just as dangerous as those who wield some kind of extraspecial power. It would also reinforce this new read I'm finding in the Ironborn storylines that shows a culture so blinded by (false) faith and ingrained societal customs/mentalities that even its most "fearsome" warriors believe themselves to not have any true responsibility for actions or outcomes. Good things or bad, it always ends up being seen as the work of divinity. When also applied to this one segment of Westeros that has been economically stagnated by geographical restrictions and a cultural disdain toward others that prevents trade, the Ironborn, through their nostalgia for the Old Way and cultish subservience to their Drowned God, have opened the door for someone like Euron Crow's Eye to come wreak havoc.

Then again...one can't discount that in this world Occam's razor can sometimes actually be "magic." And where there's magic there's often - you guessed it! - Moqorro.

(No seriously. Last one.)

[The Mother of The Others]

I don't know, Jon. Euron sure is initiated into the magics, so it could be code for that, like High Heart sees him as a magical peer of sorts. Or he's a royal among the people of the drowned god, so she saw him cloaked in their imagery?

He's a believer in the pirate god.

Here's some cuteness: if he's the ironborn's Bran, then maybe he climbed things as a kid too, and maybe it was him who scaled the castle up to the swinging bridge that night!

[Jon of the Dead]

I don't know. Euron sure is initiated into the magics, so it could be code for that, like High Heart sees him as a magical peer of sorts. Or he's a royal among the people of the drowned god?

He's a believer in the pirate god.

Here's some cuteness: if he's the ironborn's Bran, then maybe he climbed things as a kid too, and maybe it was him who scaled the castle up to the swinging bridge that night!

:lol: Now I'm picturing him coming out of the water all shady, with his hair full of sea weed like it would happen in Scooby-Doo

[Starkfaithful85]

kinda out there theory but maybe the drowned crow will be sam and if I recall correctly pate was killed on a bridge in oldtown...wouldn't their be more bridges around there that were wooden...maybe sam dies due to finding out that the fake pate is an imposter...kinda out there but I wanted to put it out there

[ElricofMelnibone]

Honestly, who cares?

Balon was a minor character, who's only purpose was to drive other, more i portant characters motives.

Euron is doomed to die. There is no room in the world George is creating for a threat, after the series is over.

Even if the FM have a dragon Egg, they can't Hatch it.

Theon gives his life to save Asha, probably killing Ramsay in the process.

Asha rules the Iron Islands at the end of the Series, as she is the only Greyjoy left.

It is known...

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Honestly, who cares?

I was getting ready to resurrect my Moqorro obsession all over this reply and then, this happened:

Asha rules the Iron Islands at the end of the Series, as she is the only Greyjoy left.

It is known...

Yup. Sounds about right. (Though I'm also very fond of Theon and wouldn't mind some kind of power-share for the Greyjoy Kids.)

[Lord Eddison Tollet]

It is tough to believe that not a single one of you have a problem with the words 'a drowned crow with seaweed in his hair'.

Firstly drowned does not simply refer to the Ironborn culturally, it refers very specifically to their religion. Nowhere else in the entire series have they been called 'drowned'.

Lets start by understanding that Balon Greyjoy's first rebellion was not for a throne but to bring back the old ways, which includes, among other things, the religion of the drowned god. This means ofcourse that before the rebellion things weren't the old way and the faith of the drowned god wasn't very strong.

After the crushing of Greyjoy's rebellion hopes for the rise of the faith were dismal.

Most Iron born i think aren't drowned. This can be seen when Damphair has to drown even the lords children in his POV chapter.

Damphair is clearly the beginning of the full resurrection of the faith of the drowned god.

Thus it is not tough to argue that Euron himself was not ever drowned. Remember he is a godless man as Damphair is so happy to remind us again and again and again.

About crow, yes it could refer to 'crow's eye' but we have to remember that ambiguity is one of Martin's finest tools. Aeron Greyjoy on the other hand is described to have a beaked nose, and often wears grey, much like the crow.

Also, seaweed in his hair. That cannot refer to anyone else in the book.

Now, assuming Damphair is the murderer, we need to study his motives. His contentions with Balon are not many but they were opposed on certain things. Firstly and most importantly on Balon's support of Asha, which Damphair does seem to have a huge problem with. Also as Martin tirelessly shows us, there is no man in Westeros who isn't vying for power. If he is vying for power, then what better time to strike than now, when all other claimants to the throne are far away. Also if you look at Damphair, he is very clearly collecting power around him, and quite fast at that. Why when the Iron islands are at war is he collecting a large militia that he is not devoting to the war.

I am not sure if Damphair new of Euron's arrival but if he did, he might have timed the murder to coincide with his arrival to put the blame on him and finally assert his revenge against Euron for Euron's sexual harassment of him, for which there is plenty of evidence. Whichever case it is, his plan clearly backfired, which is another think the author enjoys writing about, going south.

[theriveryeti]

Thank you for starting this thread!

At this stage I don't rule out Damphair being the one who killed Balon.

The 'drowned crow with seaweed' could fit Euron on all three aspects, but the 'drowned' and 'seaweed' also strongly hints at Damphair.

Damphair and Victarion both seem to revere Balon in their POV chapters.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Damphair and Victarion both seem to revere Balon in their POV chapters.

Agreed. Neither seems interested in this kind of power move. As the Kevan to Balon's Tywin*, a level of leadership on this scale is simply not Victarion's thing. (He's really like NegaNed but there's not a Tywin counterpart off which to build my analogy I'm afraid.) And from the way Aeron processes the news of Balon's death - shock and disbelief, grief (that's tied a lot to memories of Urri) and then ironpride - I just don't think there's any indication that Aeron is this self-delusional. He has PTSD and/or repressed memories of trauma...but he's not Cersei, ffs.

(* This is just an analogy, folks. Not a parallel.)

And so, ostensibly, that leaves Euron (+ a FM apparently) still a suspect. Though it really does seem a bit obvious don't you think? His conveniently timed reappearance was more than enough to cast heavy suspicions...why have the GoHH bring this one up?

Why, to lead you astray, of course. To district you from that which - once known - is undeniable but dooms you to endless skeptical eyebrows. (And also sometimes guarantees that the new people on the podcast will start laughing at the suggestion because... they just don't get it yet.)

"No man controls the winds."

-Some Dummy

[laguna80]

The problem that I have with this theory is in the wording of the prophecy:

I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks. All this I dreamt, and more.”

Each of the statements should have one thing in common: the person who is killed. I don't see why the prophecy would include the exact person who died in 2 out of 3 of the prophecies and then suddenly get ambiguous and include only the killer in the third. It just doesn't make sense to me that the prophecy would be "Killer and deceased, then killer and employer? and lastly, simply deceased. I feel the wording is just too ambiguous. I mean he's called Euron "crow's eye", not Euron the crow. Woudn't it be more accurate to say a drowned Kraken perched on his shoulder, considering that George just simple GAVE us the other two?

[mr.mop]

Here is a thought:

The man without a face is a Faceless Man, but the drowned crow is neither his victim (Balon, who is absent because he's already been thrown from the bridge) nor the man who hired him. The drowned crow simply represents his disguise, who he is posing as to get close to Balon, who's face he wears and lingering memories he exploits.

[I'mNoSer]

But that's the thing, if he really did plan the assassination, a coup wasn't necessary at all, wasn't he the lawful heir to the Throne ?

I know all things point to Euron hiring a FM man, and that's the most senseful theory, but it just seems too obvious... Maybe I've come to expect too many twists ?

I totally agree with you, in regards to expecting too many twists. Realistically, with only two books left, there can only be so many twists. We've been waiting for tWoW so long we just continue to spend our time seeing things where there probably aren't.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I totally agree with you, in regards to expecting too many twists. Realistically, with only two books left, there can only be so many twists. We've been waiting for tWoW so long we just continue to spend our time seeing things where there probably aren't.

You know what would be the best twist ever..?

[Carllav]

I think the drowned crow with seaweed represents Damphair and the drowned god. Damphair framing Euron or perhaps Euron is godly man now, and knows the drowned god. The drowned god now being his ally.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Good points.

I wonder why the crow is drowned and has seaweed on it's wings. Is it foreshadowing or what?

Personally it seems to give a hint that it is Ironborn related in terms of the drowned reference, and Euron by the Crow,

Could be that as it is a 'drowned' crow etc, a reference to Euron being drowned or dead to the Ironborn way of life, after all he has comeback as something quite different, with Victarion being the perfect traditional Ironborn candidate

[Cottonseed]

Ok, since I'm basically sure this has been covered somewhere, probably a lot, and I'm a fool for missing it apologies upfront.

Having said that-can anyone point me to some threads with theories about Euron, what his true plans are/how he's really going about them/if he's a badass sorcerer or just a con man or anything in between/etc etc? I can't find anything about him that isn't about this theory or only about him as he relates to Vic/Aeron/Asha/etc.

To me he's kind of like Darkstar: potentially intriguing, could be really cool, could be just a red herring character and/or a fake threat directly introduced to be beaten or killed later to advance the plot, general opinion seems to be not only split down the middle (total love 'em or hate 'em) but at completely different ends of the spectrum in terms of how he's interpreted, I've heard some people theorize how Euron could win the thrown all the way to him being an actual bad character, like in terms of the writing, ie Martin made a mistake even creating him. I'm not even sure what I want to happen to him, let alone what could, nor am I sure if I like him or not. I could see him ultimately being a really awesome villain major or minor but just as easily see him lose or die or whatever and thinking "Oh, he was just a device". If the latter, by the way, I wouldn't fault Martin for it, like it was bad writing-sometimes you need characters solely for them to advance the plot, especially in a series this vast, and if that ends up being the case he's very well-drawn for being of little importance.

Sorry, I ramble. Anyway, anyone know of any threads I could look at?

Just as an aside, Darkstar seems to have multitudes.