1234567 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 @LittlespiderThat is a hell of a good post. LF is cold and that is what makes him scary. He doesn't get angry, he gets revenge in a disproportionately nasty way.The only part I have a different take on is the part highlighted by BrashCandy. I think the reference to sex is related not so much to his desire to destroy her, but that him raping her and murdering her would be a better fate than being left to be continually raped by Tyrion. He is certainly in a dark place during that moment and I think it is the knowledge of Sansa's marriage more than his impending death that has brought it on. In fact his plea for the gift of mercy might have less to do with his injury and more to do with the fact his own heart felt like it had just been ripped out.It is however quite an unpleasant hyperbolic comparison, but however unpleasant I find Sandor's words and tone, the actions of those who speak pleasantly (such as LF and Tywin) leave me cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yeah, good points brash and Rapsie. So here's my take: the practical side of those lines is to try to goad Arya into killing him. But on the other hand, there's a kind of double-sided meaning. First is the expression of the idea that it would have been better to rape her and kill her than to leave her behind. (Gawd, this is so awful!) But on the other hand, clover got me to thinking -- why refer to destroying Sansa in the way he does? Cause it seems to me that what's simultaneously going on is this expression that she'd be better off dead, but the particular way that that attack is phrased (via violent sex and the heart) is an extremely violent longing for and destruction of intimacy. So, this would be why he says he'd rip her heart out, rather than he'd just strangle her or something. But there, are lots of ways of reading it.So, Arya heard all this. And at some point, we'd love to see Arya and Sansa reunite. And is Arya going to tell Sansa what he said? If so, ugh, I do not want to see that conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggini Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 @MaryaStoneTyrion is certainly a possibility! Maester Aemon also calls him a giant. Also Littlefinger's House symbol is the Titan of Braavos which is a Stone Giant. Also Arya comments that the Titan could step over the walls of Winterfell, which is what LF does in the building Winterfell scene.Can you explain what you're talking about when you say Sansa has to defeat a giant? I'm new to the forums and I wasn't aware there was any prophecy about Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Can you explain what you're talking about when you say Sansa has to defeat a giant? I'm new to the forums and I wasn't aware there was any prophecy about Sansa.It's the prophecy spoken by the ghost of high heart. The maid with purple serpents is assumed to be Sansa, who wore the black amethysts/strangler in her hair. The giant could be Robert Arryn's doll (potentially a red herring), or, as has also been guess, UnGregor (giant monster thing by now), Tyrion (giant of Lannister), or Littlefinger (giant of Braavos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So, Arya heard all this. And at some point, we'd love to see Arya and Sansa reunite. And is Arya going to tell Sansa what he said? If so, ugh, I do not want to see that conversation.Arya heard it, but I don't know if she processed it in the sense that she would remember to tell Sansa. I think she recognized in her own basic way that he was in the depths of misery and a big part of it was psychological, not physical - perhaps this played a part in why she didn't give him the mercy killing :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 But on the other hand, there's a kind of double-sided meaning. First is the expression of the idea that it would have been better to rape her and kill her than to leave her behind. (Gawd, this is so awful!)"Before leaving her for that Dwarf. "I think it is integral to the phrase that it is a comparison not to leaving her behind but that she was forced to marry Tyrion.The lines before it express his regret at not getting her out of KL and (the way I see it) the next phrase as a whole is directly related to her marriage to Tyrion and not on his own desire. Fucked her bloody is not particularly pleasant as a phrase, but I never got the impression that he ever wished he'd done that, only that it was better than being left for Tyrion, because Tyrion is a fate worse than death.However I can also see the argument that the lines that precede that phrase "I meant to take her", rather than expressing the desire to get the hell out of KL with her, is an admission that he had desired to rape her. In that context I can see the fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out line being an expression of something he had wished to do. Ugh! However the "before leaving her for that dwarf" part then makes no sense in the context of the sentence IMHO.As for the words themselves, while offensive, are in my opinion not as bad as others here find them. I guess I don't find hyperbolic comparisons all that offensive as I use them quite often myself and phrases like "I'd rather be poked in the eye with a sharp stick" are quite vile if you think about them but do not express an actual desire. Also I really think there is some awful history between those two (Tyrion and Sandor) that we do not know about yet. But on the other hand, clover got me to thinking -- why refer to destroying Sansa in the way he does? Cause it seems to me that what's simultaneously going on is this expression that she'd be better off dead, but the particular way that that attack is phrased (via violent sex and the heart) is an extremely violent longing for and destruction of intimacy. So, this would be why he says he'd rip her heart out, rather than he'd just strangle her or something. But there, are lots of ways of reading it.Sandor's whole life has been centered around violence and violent acts, so I don't find it surprising that that's the type of imagery he'd use. However the particular choices of violent acts are interesting: the violent sex part I can see relating to him having presumed that as they were married, Tyrion has been continually raping and doing all sorts of vile sexual things to her that she doesn't want to do and is being forced to. While the ripped her heart out, thing is very connected to emotions and feelings. I think he uses the heart reference as it is a common expression for having your heart broken and he probably feels that his has been ripped out. Or again it could be linked to the fact Arya was about to stab him through the heart and it was on his mind.So, Arya heard all this. And at some point, we'd love to see Arya and Sansa reunite. And is Arya going to tell Sansa what he said? If so, ugh, I do not want to see that conversation.Given Arya has started calling people Camel Cunt, I really don't think she'll mind what he said!!!!EDIT: Stupid bloody auto correct spelling and my stubby fingers hitting the wrong letters! Never try writing a lengthy response on the iPhone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 And it has rubies too....like Rheagar's on the QI.Uhh... can it be, that it IS Rhaegar's seventh ruby?So we would see Oathkeeper to somehow wash ashore on the QI in the next book?We have never seen Littlefinger or Varys angry, ever. If someone can find a place in the text where it could be argued that they are actually angry, let me know. I'm certain that these are guys that play-act at anger in order to further their schemes. But Littlefinger isn't angry. Littlefinger is cold. (Note: this does not mean that LF has never experienced anger in the text, but to my mind we don't see him actually, genuinely manifest it. So we can infer that he might be angry, but he's never demonstrated anything through angry behavior or words.)Very good post Littlespider, but I think we actually see Vaerys angry at least once: In the cell with Ned. It is a calm and somehow sad (and cold) anger, but he _is_ angry with Ned, as Ned has not only ruined his plans, but also because what he did (talking to Cersei) was so goddamned stupid in Vaerys eyes (well, not only in his *cogh*). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 While the ripped her heart out, thing is very connected to emotions and feelings. I think he uses the heart reference as it is a common expression for having your heart broken and he probably feels that his has been ripped out. Or again it could be linked to the fact Arya was about to stab him through the heart and it was on his mind. I think that Sandor was actually beginning to have hope again on the journey with Arya, and yes, this hope was related to Sansa. It's not a coincidence that he hadn't already cleared out from the Riverlands, and then the whole preaching to Arya about being done with the Lannisters, wanting Robb to make him a lordling, and the hints about something more going on between him and Sansa, all indicate that he was perhaps secretly trying to reform his ways in order to be the kind of man she could marry could be proud of. So, the RW was probably devastating to him too. Obviously in no way close to the impact it had on Arya, but he was counting on meeting up with the Starks for his own reasons as well. So, when he goes to the Inn and learns that all his hopes have been in vain essentially, the Lannisters have married Sansa to the Imp, and she's disappeared, he is absolutely crushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Arya heard it, but I don't know if she processed it in the sense that she would remember to tell Sansa.That's what I was thinking, too. To be honest, I always had the impression that she was much more bothered by his comments about Mycah than about Sansa. Not that she didn't care about the awful things he said about her sister, but up until that point it was the Mycah issue that she'd held against Sandor for so long, and it was ultimately him getting Mycah's name wrong that finally made her flip out and decide he didn't deserve mercy. I'm sure she didn't like what he said about Sansa one little bit, but if she ever looks back on that moment, I think it's the comments about Mycah that she'd focus on and remember most clearly. Plus, years will probably have passed when and if she and Sansa are ever reunited, so for that reason alone she might not remember all the details of what he said about Sansa.I have to admit, though, that I would be interested to read a conversation between the two sisters about that scene. Not because it would be fun reading (ugh, it would be awful), but because I would find it fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 @ Rapsie - I'll do a search of the Dunk & Egg Novels on my Kindle when I get home from college. Though, just a forewarning... it's 11:05 here and I don't get home until 23:00. It's my looooooong day of classes. Literally I'm at my campus from 9:00 to 22:00, and then it takes an hour to drive home. So that'll be hours and hours from now. ;) I could have sworn Dunk made a passing reference, but nothing substantial, I think, but we shall see. Note to self: also search for Maidenpool references...Uhh... can it be, that it IS Rhaegar's seventh ruby?So we would see Oathkeeper to somehow wash ashore on the QI in the next book?I don't think so. I think when Tywin did that awful thing commissioned the two swords, he had the armorer put new rubies in the pommel. So they wouldn't be Rhaegar's rubies. Just some random new ones.I think that Sandor was actually beginning to have hope again on the journey with Arya, and yes, this hope was related to Sansa. It's not a coincidence that he hadn't already cleared out from the Riverlands, and then the whole preaching to Arya about being done with the Lannisters, wanting Robb to make him a lordling, and the hints about something more going on between him and Sansa, all indicate that he was perhaps secretly trying to reform his ways in order to be the kind of man she could marry could be proud of. So, the RW was probably devastating to him too. Obviously in no way close to the impact it had on Arya, but he was counting on meeting up with the Starks for his own reasons as well. So, when he goes to the Inn and learns that all his hopes have been in vain essentially, the Lannisters have married Sansa to the Imp, and she's disappeared, he is absolutely crushed.A thousand times this! This is exactly the vibe I got in my reading, as well. It's sad when you think about it. More or less, his travels with Arya were going alright, and if he can handle her, then he should be able to handle the rest of the Starks, I'm sure was his thought. Then they roll up to the RW, and everything is all sorts of fucked up. Arya's devastated, Sandor's plans are ruined, and I'm guessing but he probably might have thought about what his bird's reaction might be when she receives the news about her brother and mother... Just a bad day, all around.Then later hears about the marriage, well I'm convinced Sandor was very wounded inside. I agree with Rapsie's reading of his last great speech. The phrasing honestly did not offend me, and I see where he's at when he's saying all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Oh, @ Rapsie, just an interesting tidbit. In the third D&E novel, there's a lot of activity at a wedding. Namely, the second Blackfyre Rebellion. Shortlived as it was quashed by Bloodraven, but potentially dangerous. Damn, no one go to a wedding in Westeros! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Rapsie -- nice discussion of the speech. I think I stated my point badly when I said "left her behind." What I should have said was "left her behind for Tyrion." One of the things I think Martin does remarkably well is to get at what people do when they're in horrible, horrible emotional distress: some people in these states say and think awful, awful things. (Even functional people.)Random trivia of the day, all: PM me if you want some info on historical kennelmasters. Clearly, I have been on the internets and procrasting from real work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Oh my god! I just realized...... at that bad times wedding in the D&E novels, a child-aged Walder Frey was present. He might have learned from that. :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Nooooooooooo!!!! Ghastly thought. If the above is correct and the theory that Ice / Oathkeeper is going to become Lightbringer and it is tempered in the heart of the Lion (Jaime) and then reforged by Gendry and given to Sandor.....that would mean that she is Nissa Nissa! Nooooooo!!!!!I really hope that is not what Thoros meant when he said that R'hllor wasn't done with him. :(Unless we go with the other interpretation of AA thrusting his sword into Nissa Nissa.No worries, because AA is Davos! :bowdown:Though I like this talk of thrusting swords. Hehe.I also think that Stoneheart is slowly corrupting the Brotherhood with her existence. If R'hllor is good, I do not think Gendry will be doing his work anytime soon.Yeah, Gendry as we last saw him seemed very inwardly angry and his conversion to Rhollor seems to me an attempt to fill a void. As that's not healthy, it'll either ruin him, or there will be a break later down the line where he turns away from the red faith, in which case, it might be for an important reason, say, reforging an important sword. It's debatable where he will end up, but he seems to be entwined with the storylines of female "warriors" as POV characters go. Arya in the beginning, Brienne / Lady Stoneheart presently, and possibly any of those three in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Rapsie -- nice discussion of the speech. I think I stated my point badly when I said "left her behind." What I should have said was "left her behind for Tyrion." One of the things I think Martin does remarkably well is to get at what people do when they're in horrible, horrible emotional distress: some people in these states say and think awful, awful things. (Even functional people.)Sorry it wasn't you, I was probably being dense: quite a common occurrence!!!!GRRM is brilliant in his writing: the fact we can all have such an interesting discussion and different takes on various lines suggests that they maybe are meant to be ambiguous and make the reader truly think about the nature of the characters.I like the greyness. In LoTR the nearest you have to a grey character (of the ASOIAF variety) is Boromir, and he's more of a flawed good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Who wants to bet that when we get to Season 4 (second half of SoS) that that particular phrase will be cut? They've got to. TV audiences (or, most of them) won't analyze it like we do. And my guess is that if they keep the "ripped her heart out" they'll replace "before" with something completely clear like "instead of" or "rather than." I think the ambiguity of "before" is very intentional, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Who wants to bet that when we get to Season 4 (second half of SoS) that that particular phrase will be cut? They've got to. TV audiences (or, most of them) won't analyze it like we do. And my guess is that if they keep the "ripped her heart out" they'll replace "before" with something completely clear like "instead of" or "rather than." I think the ambiguity of "before" is very intentional, myself.Because GRRM would be breaking tradition if he made any interacting concerning Sandor and Sansa the least bit clear. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Who wants to bet that when we get to Season 4 (second half of SoS) that that particular phrase will be cut? They've got to. TV audiences (or, most of them) won't analyze it like we do. And my guess is that if they keep the "ripped her heart out" they'll replace "before" with something completely clear like "instead of" or "rather than." I think the ambiguity of "before" is very intentional, myself.Totally. I think it's telling that GRRM is directing the BBW episode. Season 2 should give us some idea of how they want the characters to be viewed. Similarly (if it gets to Season 4) the scene about the lines previously discussed may give us confirmation one way or the other. Similarly it maybe that too much has been read into Sandor's character, and the Gravedigger scene is a sly nod to his fate, like the Sailor's Wife is perhaps a nod to what happened to Tysha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candor Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Totally. I think it's telling that GRRM is directing the BBW episode. Season 2 should give us some idea of how they want the characters to be viewed. Similarly (if it gets to Season 4) the scene about the lines previously discussed may give us confirmation one way or the other.Similarly it maybe that too much has been read into Sandor's character, and the Gravedigger scene is a sly nod to his fate, like the Sailor's Wife is perhaps a nod to what happened to Tysha.I will be crying forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Totally. I think it's telling that GRRM is directing the BBW episode. Season 2 should give us some idea of how they want the characters to be viewed.Oh, he's directing that episode too? I thought he just wrote the screenplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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