Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!

[NanChan]

I'm not a huge fan of Catelyn and I agree that some of her decisions have been regrettable and even resulted in her and Robb's deaths. However, I find it appalling that so many people have been lashing out against her without even trying to understand her point of view (ironic really, considering the fact that she's one of the main POV characters in the first 3 books.)

I'll try to explain my impressions from my readings of Catelyn and her decisions. Although I should warn you, this is going to be a LONG read.

For Catelyn, her own house's words,i.e., "Family, Duty, Honour", hold as the absolute truth. She has been a dutiful daughter, a dutiful wife and later, a dutiful mother. She loves her husband and her own children immensely. However, her relationship with Jon Snow is the main reason why most people seem to dislike her. I must admit, I find her behaviour towards Jon rather severe, vicious even, but I understand why such is so. How many of us would actually welcome our spouse's love child, their proof of their infidelity towards us, into our own household and love them and raise them as our own. I believe Ned is as much to blame for this behaviour of Catelyn's. He brings Jon to Winterfell, but doesn't even explain to Catelyn who is Jon's mother and why he is to be raised alongside Robb. I wonder at times, as dutiful and honorable Ned was, would he have agreed to raise Catelyn's love child, if she ever had any, as his own. Jon Snow is a constant reminder to her of Ned's infidelity. As much as Jon didn't deserve to be treated like that, it is also noteworthy that he was raised with the other Stark children, receiving as much as they had, minus Catelyn's affection of course. In this point, however, I would also like to mention that I really don't get why Catelyn was cold towards Theon while he was her ward at Winterfell. Nor do I support it.

Catelyn's decisions in the events during ASOIAF:

AGOT: After receiving Lysa's (whom she had no reason to distrust) letter about Jon Arryn's death, she urges her husband to travel to KL to find out the truth and also that no questions arise about their loyalty towards the Iron Throne. The attack on Bran and the lie from Little Finger only helped to instigate her suspicions. She never had any plans to capture Tyrion but after that chance meet at the Crossroads Inn, how was she to let go of the man, whom she believed was responsible for her son's fall and and a conspirator for the attack. She took him to the Eyrie only to learn the truth from him (as in WHY Bran fell and was then attacked) and use him as a pawn so as to keep the rest of her family safe but she couldn't have known that Lysa was a fool and a liar. If Lysa had been able to keep Tyrion as her prisoner then what happened afterwards would've been drastically different. When eventually Cat's husband was captured and beheaded by the Lannisters and her son sought vengeance, I don't think as a mother she had any other choice but to support her son and help him win the war.

ACOK: In AGOT, Cat secured Robb's victory by forging an alliance with the Freys. She even traveled to Storm's End and after failing to gain both the Baratheon brothers' allegiance, brought Brienne back with her. I thought it was a rather wise advise from her when she warned Robb about sending Theon back to the Iron Islands. Actually, throughout the war, she advises Robb which had/ would've had helped him win his battles. But her biggest mistake was letting Jaime go. However, if read thoroughly, I find that Catelyn has been wearisome from the beginning of the series and always fears for her children's safety. After hearing about Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths in the hands of Theon, who had once been her ward, her motherly instinct completely took over her judgement. At that point, what became more important to her was that her remaining children would be safe and with her. She trusted in the words of Tyrion and hoped that letting Jaime go would help get back Sansa and Arya. What people fail to notice however, is that, if Jaime hadn't been freed and later captured and maimed by Vargo Hoat, his 'redemption' wouldn't have happened.

ASOS: Catelyn's anxiety proves to be true and she watches her only remaining (which she has come to believe) son die in front of her and she herself is killed. Her naked body is even thrown into the river as a mockery.

As Lady Stoneheart: Throughout her journey during the ASOIAF events, Catelyn has been consistently lied to and betrayed, her family whom she loves more than herself has been butchered ruthlessly and she has been pushed to the point of madness. So is it a wonder that when she comes back from the dead she has only vengeance in her mind, and any person who is associated with the Lannisters or the Boltons or the Freys is a traitor in her eyes, who must die for killing her son. Cat has been betrayed so many times by her own people that when she discovers Brienne with a Lannister sword and a written order signed by Tommen, a Lannister king no less, it is only natural that she'll think Brienne has also betrayed her. What people forget is that, even after that, she gave Brienne a chance to prove her loyalty. How was Stoneheart to know that Jaime has changed. We readers can read and therefore learn the story from all the sides. The characters themselves don't have that advantage. Also, GRRM has been very consistent on this point that death changes people, even Beric Dondarrion had changed from what he was before, to the point where he cannot even remember the name of the woman he once hoped to marry signifying life as he knew it ended with his (first) death.

I don't know if this point has been mentioned before in this forum, but it is my belief that Catelyn is the example of a character who is anxiety-driven and in this ruthless game of betrayal and death was driven to the point of madness (clawing and gnawing at her own cheeks after seeing Roose Bolton kill Robb). Death has made her vengeful and furious.

I see Catelyn as a victim of her circumstances who tried to do the right thing and therefore exposed her weaknesses to her enemies. She definitely has her flaws but that doesn't mean she deserved to get what she got.

To sum it up, this war would've happened anyway, with or without Catelyn capturing Tyrion, it was only a matter of time. I hope the other readers see through it. Lashing out at Catelyn or judging her without a cause cannot console the grief one feels about the present status of the Starks or the realm as a whole. Every single character has made a mistake and will continue to do so. Only some (LF and Varys) are intelligent enough to see the weaknesses of others and themselves and thus, are well prepared for what is to come.

[The GRRumbler]

I don't see how her decisions could possibly have lead her or her son to death.

[NanChan]

I don't see how her decisions could possibly have lead her or her son to death.

Catelyn's capture of Tyrion in AGOT is seen by many as the event that triggered the war. But like I said before, she was only acting on the ground that Tyrion is a possible murderer and conspiring against her family and must be stopped.

Then, freeing Jaime from Riverrun at the end of ACOK marks as a weak decision as well. I've already explained why she did what she did.

I never noticed this irony but on one instance she captures a Lannister brother and in an another frees the other, either way the Lannisters end up gaining power and in the end butcher her family. But whatever decision Cat took, she felt it was the best thing to do, in that situation, in order to save her own kin.

[The GRRumbler]

Catelyn's capture of Tyrion in AGOT is seen by many as the event that triggered the war. But like I said before, she was only acting on the ground that Tyrion is a possible murderer and conspiring against her family and must be stopped.

Then, freeing Jaime from Riverrun at the end of ACOK marks as a weak decision as well. I've already explained why she did what she did.

I never noticed this irony but on one instance she captures a Lannister brother and in an another frees the other, either way the Lannisters end up gaining power and in the end butcher her family. But whatever decision Cat took, she felt it was the best thing to do, in that situation, in order to save her own kin.

How does freeing jaime leads to her death? As far as i know he had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

And about Tyrion, she onle met him there by chance and she did it because she suspected he was the one behind the attempt to murder her son - wich ironically was something done by jaime. And still, what does that have to do with her and robbs death?

[FanTasy]

I think Catelyn is a character that is well written.

It shows that she has insight (at times she gives Robb some pretty good advice), but she had poor insight too.

-1- In the books Ned doesn't want to leave Winterfell. Catelyn urges him to do so (in the TV show this was shown differently, as Catelyn opposing Ned's wish to serve Robert ). Family. Duty. Honor. She chose not for Family.

-2- Capturing Tyrion was smart and understandable, considering what she thought was 'evidence' for his guilt. The right thing to do was to turn back and present Tyrion and her 'evidence' before Robert, asking for the Kings justice. Instead she brought Tyrion to the Vale, to her sister. This time she chose for Family and it blew up in her face.

-3- Releasing Jaime she saw as her only option, after Robb made clear he would never trade Jaime for his sisters. Catelyn chose Family again, but in choosing for her daughters she endangered her son Robb. He lost the Karstarks. This was the first of a shift towards his downfall. Breaking his oath to Walder Frey lost Robb the loyalty of the Freys and cleared the path for Roose Bolton teaming up with Tywin Lannister and scheming the Red Wedding.

[Guts]

Personally I don't share a lot of the disdain for Catelyn that so many seem to harbour. I think Lady Stoneheart is a believable and likeable logical extreme after everything she's been through and believes to be true.

She did make some stupid and rash decisions, but under the circumstances I guess they were all understandable.

[The GRRumbler]

And her mistakes pale before the huge ones made by her son and husband, we have to remember that, i think she is one of the most well written characters with one of the most tragic fates in this series. I really think undead is worse than dead.

[NanChan]

How does freeing jaime leads to her death? As far as i know he had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

And about Tyrion, she onle met him there by chance and she did it because she suspected he was the one behind the attempt to murder her son - wich ironically was something done by jaime. And still, what does that have to do with her and robbs death?

No, Jaime, personally had nothing to do with the Red Wedding. It was planned by Tywin and excuted by the Freys. But if the Starks, at that point, still held him as a prisoner, then Tywin wouldn't gone with the plan so conveniently. Because, if any harm came to Robb and his bannermen, Jaime would've surely lost his life. So, Catelyn freeing Jaime made it easier for the Freys and the Lannisters to make the Red Wedding a devastating reality.

As for capturing Tyrion, I mentioned the same in my original post.

And her mistakes pale before the huge ones made by her son and husband, we have to remember that, i think she is one of the most well written characters with one of the most tragic fates in this series. I really think undead is worse than dead.

This is exactly what I've wanted people to understand. What befell on the Starks is not Catelyn's fault, alone. Ned's decisions in AGOT and then Robb's decisions to trust Theon back to the Iron Islands, behead Karstark thus losing their fealty and then ruining the allegiance with the Freys by marrying Jeyne (again understandable but regrettable)...all of it, is responsible for what has happened with the Starks.

So I think it's quite unfair on the people's part to blame Catelyn for everything, simply because she's cold towards Jon Snow.

[Ran]

It's clear that Tywin was already arranging the Red Wedding with the Freys at the outset of ASoS, before he knew anything of Jaime. At no point did Jame being captured slow him down or prevent him from trying to achieve victory whether by hook or by crook. So as far as that goes, no, Jaime's release actually had no impact.

[scurvy]

The Catelyn chapter in CoK when she is eating with Brienne and tells of the raven's arrival and Bran and Rickon's death is the most heart rending scene in any of the books. I'd say the first half of that chapter is the best written chapter in the series. The second half of the chapter where she interrogates Jaime is standard fare.

[Evamitchelle]

Tywin already considered Jaime as good as dead. He'd still have gone ahead with the RW even if Jaime was still a captive at Riverrun. He probably had a better shot at freeing him after the RW than before actually : Sansa and Arya weren't "good enough" hostages to trade for the Kingslayer (at that point Cat and Robb still believed Arya to be with the Lannisters) because they were young girls, but Edmure, who was Lord of Riverrun then, might have been enough.

From Tyrion's last POV in GoT : "That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left."

[David Selig]

Besides, the plan for the Red Wedding was to take a whole bunch of noble hostages, including most lords of the riverlands and the North, and the Blackfish's niece and nephew. That's more than enough to bargain for Jaime's life.

Anyway, I've always found the Catelyn hate ridiculous. The reasons for it make no rational sense. The same people who decry how terrible was for her to say those infamous words to Jon, often have no problems with others who said worse things I number of times, and not only said it, but committ murders and other serious crimes too (Tyrion and Jaime for example). And somehow Ned is awesome and Cat is mostly to blame for the fall of House Stark, even though it was Ned had much bigger role in that due to his blunders in KL.

[Faceless Sam]

Catelyn's capture of Tyrion in AGOT is seen by many as the event that triggered the war. But like I said before, she was only acting on the ground that Tyrion is a possible murderer and conspiring against her family and must be stopped.

gregor clegane pillaging the riverlands is what started the war.

anyway, varys and illyrio wanted a war, they would have found a way to start one anyway, and even on their schedule.

[headtrip_honey]

-2- Capturing Tyrion was smart and understandable, considering what she thought was 'evidence' for his guilt. The right thing to do was to turn back and present Tyrion and her 'evidence' before Robert, asking for the Kings justice. Instead she brought Tyrion to the Vale, to her sister. This time she chose for Family and it blew up in her face.

The problem with going to Kings Landing is that she'd be walking straight into a Lannister stronghold. This is a city where the Lannisters are so strong that Jaime and a Lannister retinue can attack Ned Stark and his guard and get off with no consequence.

So, what do you think would happen if Catelyn, with Ser Rodrik, perhaps a few sellswords (whose allegiance cannot be trusted once the Lannisters come into the mix) and a few vassals of Riverland nobles were to march into KL with Tyrion? Cersei would command that Robert release her brother, and it would be all for naught.

Cat couldn't make it all the way to Winterfell, so she went to the nearest place where she thought she could expect to receive justice - the Eyrie. She had no way of knowing her sister was unhinged, and thought that her sister would support HER, not take Tyrion as her own prisoner and preside over that farce.

So I wouldn't call her heading to the Eyrie as a decision based on "family". It was based on pragmatism and what she knew at the time. If she'd been close to another noble house where she could reasonably expect justice, I assume she would have gone there as well.

[FanTasy]

The problem with going to Kings Landing is that she'd be walking straight into a Lannister stronghold. This is a city where the Lannisters are so strong that Jaime and a Lannister retinue can attack Ned Stark and his guard and get off with no consequence.

So, what do you think would happen if Catelyn, with Ser Rodrik, perhaps a few sellswords (whose allegiance cannot be trusted once the Lannisters come into the mix) and a few vassals of Riverland nobles were to march into KL with Tyrion? Cersei would command that Robert release her brother, and it would be all for naught.

Cat couldn't make it all the way to Winterfell, so she went to the nearest place where she thought she could expect to receive justice - the Eyrie. She had no way of knowing her sister was unhinged, and thought that her sister would support HER, not take Tyrion as her own prisoner and preside over that farce.

So I wouldn't call her heading to the Eyrie as a decision based on "family". It was based on pragmatism and what she knew at the time. If she'd been close to another noble house where she could reasonably expect justice, I assume she would have gone there as well.

True, but at the time Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion Ned, her husband, was the Hand of the King and sat at the Small Council.

Sure it was dangerous to bring Tyrion to Kings Landing.

But all the other routes she took would also make the Lannisters mad and could provoke actions against Ned - as we know happened when Jaime attacked Ned. I'm inclined to think her best decision would have been to use Ned's position of power, his friendship to Robert and calling upon the justice of the king before the Small Council.

[headtrip_honey]

True, but at the time Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion Ned, her husband, was the Hand of the King and sat at the Small Council.

Sure it was dangerous to bring Tyrion to Kings Landing.

But all the other routes she took would also make the Lannisters mad and could provoke actions against Ned - as we know happened when Jaime attacked Ned. I'm inclined to think her best decision would have been to use Ned's position of power, his friendship to Robert and calling upon the justice of the king before the Small Council.

Unfortunately Cat (wisely) didn't trust Robert's friendship:

"You knew the man. The king is a stranger to you." (re: Ned wanting to refuse the position of Hand)

And when discussing their "proof" (Ned, Cat and Littlefinger), they came to an agreement that what they have (the dagger, the suspicion that it is Tyrion's) is not enough to get justice from the King. And Ned reminds Cat that the Lannisters are merciless. So I see no reason why Cat would expect to find justice in Kings Landing. Ned only wanted to bring the matter before the King once he had proof of Jon Arryn's murder. That, he felt, would be enough to sway the King, as the King loved Jon Arryn.

[Maggie the Cat]

My only issue w/ Catelyn is her treatment of Jon Snow. I don't care of what she believed him to be the product. I don't care if she was hurt by Ned's "betrayal". She's an adult Jon is a child. You do not take your anger for someone out on their children. Either forgive Ned and move on, or save your anger for Ned and nurture the child. Here was a child in need of a good and strong mother figure. It was her opportunity to step up and show the kind of woman she really was. She did.

[FanTasy]

Unfortunately Cat (wisely) didn't trust Robert's friendship:

"You knew the man. The king is a stranger to you." (re: Ned wanting to refuse the position of Hand)

And when discussing their "proof" (Ned, Cat and Littlefinger), they came to an agreement that what they have (the dagger, the suspicion that it is Tyrion's) is not enough to get justice from the King. And Ned reminds Cat that the Lannisters are merciless. So I see no reason why Cat would expect to find justice in Kings Landing. Ned only wanted to bring the matter before the King once he had proof of Jon Arryn's murder. That, he felt, would be enough to sway the King, as the King loved Jon Arryn.

Good arguments, but the question arises what justice could Catelyn expect to find in the Vale

I suppose the point of it all was to bring Tyrion to justice because he - as Catelyn thought - ordered her son to be killed.

A Lannister crime against a Stark.

What jurisdiction could the Lord of the Vale - Lysa in this case as protector of the Vale possibly have in this issue?

[RandomWanderer]

I honestly have never cared much for Catelyn either way, but I'm not a big fan of her being an undead zombie avenger also... Her time to leave this series forever is long due.

[headtrip_honey]

My only issue w/ Catelyn is her treatment of Jon Snow. I don't care of what she believed him to be the product. I don't care if she was hurt by Ned's "betrayal". She's an adult Jon is a child. You do not take your anger for someone out on their children. Either forgive Ned and move on, or save your anger for Ned and nurture the child. Here was a child in need of a good and strong mother figure. It was her opportunity to step up and show the kind of woman she really was. She did.

I'm not saying Cat was kind to Jon - she wasn't. But she wasn't cruel, either, until she was grief-stricken at Bran's bedside. All we have evidence of is that she was cold to Jon.

And it wasn't that Ned was "unfaithful" to her. Cat says that she expected that, given that he was off fighting. It was that he brought a bastard home (in fact, had Jon and his wetnurse installed at Winterfell before Cat, the Lady of Winterfell, and his heir, even got there), something unheard of for her, and that he scared her with his anger when she inquired after the mother. She says it was the one time that he truly frightened her, and Jon reminded her of that every time she saw him.

Truly, Jon had it better than Robert's bastards.