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Catelyn: A hugely misunderstood character!


NanChan

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Okay, you have me on Theon, but only because of the deaths of the miller's sons, which he has shown a TON of remorse for. None of the others mentioned have the same reckless disregard for innocence, except maybe Melissandre and her whole Kingsblood/Edric Storm thing. At least she has the massively broad scale altruistic intentions of rebirthing Azor Azai. She is not cruel to innocent people out of ignorance, grudges and pettiness.

Victarion respects innocence ?! :rofl:

Like that time when he beat his wife to death for being raped by his brother ? Or the time when he burned 7 women alive as an offering to R'hllor ? Or maybe the time when he threw the male prostitutes over the board because they were "unnatural" ? Or killed his mester because his healing skills weren't good enough for him ? Yeah, real white knight right there.

You also seem to forget the part where Aeron actively engages in reaving and pillaging for a living, and asks for people to be drowned on a regular basis as an offering to the Drowned God (like Benfred Tallhart).

And how could I think that burning people alive because your god tells you to is worse than being mean to your husband's bastard ?

EDIT :

So Tyrion says something off colour about having sex with his WIFE, which he DIDN'T do when confronted with the reality of actually traumatizing Sansa. Oh and he threatens Tommen to Cersei to protect another innocent, which again, does not happen.

Catelyn said something off colour about not liking her husband's BASTARD, a feeling she DIDN'T act on or even remotely consider.

I really don't see how that's worse.

As an aside, do you think even Victarion's wife thought she would survive being caught cheating on him? She took a massive and stupid risk in the process of dishonoring herself and him.

I think it was implied that Victarion's wife was raped by Euron. Even if she wasn't, the fact that you seem to consider being beaten to death an appropriate reaction to cheating is troubling. And she was a salt wife to begin with, aka a slave.

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These descriptions in Jon's chapter imply that he expected no good. So I think she indeed bullied Jon for the last 14 years. Why else would he be so afraid?

And that's all before the "It should have been you" quote which isn't what made my heart to go out to Jon in that moment. That was just the last drop. And I think it's indeed cruel to hurt a young boy so thoroughly that he would run crying. She doesn't need to beat him up to hurt him like that. Actually I think beating up might be easier to bear, because you can hate that person then. Jon doesn't hate Cat, he understands why she's acting the way she does. It's because he's bad, he's a bastard, he's a stain to Ned's honour (which he is ever ready to defend!). And her emphasizing the differences between Jon and his siblings never let him forget just how inferior he is to them. And it's all completely justified of course, because he's worthless, a creature born from lust, prone to treachery.

Her looking at him like she grudged him every bite (some Jon chapter, don't know which) is a more subtle kind of cruelty. Her behaviour toward him tells Jon every day that he doesn't belong to Winterfell, that he has to leave as soon as he is a man. His siblings can't make up for it, even though they clearly love and admire him. But all of them are very aware of the distance between them and Jon, that he isn't their "real brother". And yes, that includes even Arya. Ned I imagine as distant, he does not seem to be a person to show his feelings. He would be afraid to hurt Cat too. Whichever way you turn it, Jon's feelings on the matter are very obvious: he doesn't feel at home at the only home he had. Which is very cruel.

July 14, 1999

CHRONOLOGY, TIMELINE, AND CATELYN

SUBMITTED BY: MARKUS RASCH

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

So no verbal abuse or bullying according to GRRM.

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Truly, Jon had it better than Robert's bastards.

Ever heard of Edric Storm? That guy was practically raised as a Lord,everyone was charmed by him and treated him like Robert's trueborn son.Even Stannis sent him one a pleasure trip to Lys,the city of courtesans...

I admit his other bastards had it hard but Jon is in no way the luckiest bastard alive,nor the most privelged(he went to the wall at 14) and atleast he dosent delude himself into thinking he's neds trueborn son,unlike quentyn flowers and edric storm.

That being said,i think Catelyn was quite decent to jon except for that one moment when he went to see bran before leaving forever.I mean i know she was grief stricken....but man she was a real bitch to him for no reason....

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So Tyrion says something off colour about having sex with his WIFE, which he DIDN'T do when confronted with the reality of actually traumatizing Sansa. Oh and he threatens Tommen to Cersei to protect another innocent, which again, does not happen.

Oh, it's fine then, because she's his WIFE. That means she's his property, right? Oh, wait, no. It doesn't mean that.

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Ever heard of Edric Storm? That guy was practically raised as a Lord,everyone was charmed by him and treated him like Robert's trueborn son.Even Stannis sent him one a pleasure trip to Lys,the city of courtesans...

I admit his other bastards had it hard but Jon is in no way the luckiest bastard alive,nor the most privelged(he went to the wall at 14) and atleast he dosent delude himself into thinking he's neds trueborn son,unlike quentyn flowers and edric storm.

That being said,i think Catelyn was quite decent to jon except for that one moment when he went to see bran before leaving forever.I mean i know she was grief stricken....but man she was a real bitch to him for no reason....

Um, Davos smuggled him out to Lys because his uncle considered burning him alive. He has it better than Robert's other bastards because Robert was forced to acknowledge him (since he was conceived in Stannis' wedding bed, with a cousin of the bride). The others don't fare all that well : Mya is the most well off working as a "guide" in the Vale, but then Gendry works as a smith' apprentice and is sent to the Wall (but never makes it), Bella is a prostitute, Barra got murdered before she reached the age of 1 and some twins apparently got killed on Cersei's orders (that's LF speaking though, it might be a big lie). They also never see him after he loses his initial interest.

I think the bastards who have it best are definitely the Sand Snakes, but Jon Snow is pretty up there too. He chose to go to the Wall after all (though he didn't know it wasn't as prestigious as he imagined). I doubt that Ned saw it as a punishment or a bad thing since his own brother is a member.

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That being said,i think Catelyn was quite decent to jon except for that one moment when he went to see bran before leaving forever.I mean i know she was grief stricken....but man she was a real bitch to him for no reason....

Well ... I have to say that when Ned decided to go to Kings Landing I found Catelyn way too harsh in confronting Ned with that she wouldn't let Jon stay at Winterfell.

I can't prove it but I thought: okay, this is not solely that you don't want Jon around.

You want to punish your husband for that he not only takes the girls away from you to Kings Landing but that he is taking Bran from you too

Remember that if Bran hadn't been crippled Catelyn would have stayed in Winterfell bereft of all her children but (ETA Robb and) Rickon.

So Jon had to go.

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Um, Davos smuggled him out to Lys because his uncle considered burning him alive. He has it better than Robert's other bastards because Robert was forced to acknowledge him (since he

was conceived in Stannis' wedding bed, with a

cousin of the bride). The others don't fare all that

well : Mya is the most well off working as a

"guide" in the Vale, but then Gendry works as a smith' apprentice and is sent to the Wall (but never makes it), Bella is a prostitute, Barra got

murdered before she reached the age of 1 and some twins apparently got killed on Cersei's orders (that's LF speaking though, it might be a big lie). They also never see him after he loses his initial interest.

I think the bastards who have it best are

definitely the Sand Snakes, but Jon Snow is pretty up there too. He chose to go to the

Wall after all (though he didn't know it wasn't as prestigious as he imagined). I doubt that Ned saw it as a punishment or a bad thing since his own brother is a member.

Yea i know Stannis wanted to burn him,but he ended up in lys all the same,and yea i already pointed out the other bastards have it hard,all im saying is that jon really has a difficult life,especially when u consider all the shit he went through cause of Alliser Thorne,Janos Slynt,Bowen Marsh etc.

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If you can name a time where Tyrion or Jaime said anything that would be remotely analogous to what Catelyn said to Jon without the witticism, I'd love to hear it.

And isn't this exactly the point? One can froth rabid at the mouth, but so long as it's witty, it remains less offensive than just stating something outright without dressing it up. Really?

Jaime: "Widowhood becomes you." Not in the least bit witty, and clearly one of the crueler things one could say to Catelyn, particularly if spoken by a Lannister.

Walder Frey: "But he's a Grandson." Cruel in it's point blank disregard for Jigglebells, crueler still to Catelyn as it was her very last card in the very last game she was a part of....alive.

I've never subscribed to the Jon Snow as Oliver Twist reborn theory, nor did I ever find him remotely interesting until he took off his diapers sometime during ADWD and STFU about himself. Which leads me to another cruel statement from Tyrion:

"They hate you because you think you are better than them." Because he did.

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When Catelyn left her children in Winterfell there were safe inside a massive castle that had never bee taken before, surrounded by people who loved them and that they'd known all their lives. She could have gotten back to Winterfell when Tyrion won his trial but she was busy trying to help her 14-year-old son fighting a war against the most powerful family in the Seven Kingdoms. She could actually make a difference with Robb (if he had had the sense to listen to her), while in Winterfell she could have achieved nothing. Even if she had been in Winterfell when Theon took the castle, what the hell would that have changed ?

Ned also happens to be a grown man who can make decisions on his own. They're usually bad ones but they're still his own. Cat didn't brainwash him into going to KG, he saw himself that it was needed of him if he wanted to help his BFF Robert and find out who killed his foster-dad, which is why he decided to go. The mere idea that Catelyn should be held responsible for Ned's decisions is just utterly ridiculous to me.

Are you serious ? She was the one who told Robb not to send Theon away and keep him close, it's Robb who went against her advice and enabled Theon taking Winterfell. If you want to blame people you should blame Theon first (the one who actually took the castle you know), Rodrik second (because she left him in charge of the castle and her sons' safety and he left the castle grossly undermanned because Theon played him like a flute) and Robb last because he was the stupid one who sent a hostage back to his family.

I know the blaming her for the boys apparent death was an emotional thing just because Rickon I felt for the boys without their mother. She was probably more use with Robb. I blamed Theon massively as well and still hold it against him even though it turns out he didn't actually kill them. I think in this series I find it hard to get over my first reaction to events!

As with Neds chapter. In the book he doesn't want to go to Kings Landing at first but she persuades him its the best thing to do. It maybe this was an argument he would have had with himself and still gone but I read it as being an awful lot of presure from her. She read the symbol of the dead direwolf as maybe a result of Robert's wrath if Ned refused IIRC. This isn't the same as killing him but I blamed her partly. Honestly its probable because I didn't enjoy her self loathing POVs and wanted an escape goat. I would have been well annoyed if Robb died but she survived the RW.

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BTW, here's how Jon dealt with the stress and grief in a similar situation to Cat's after Bran fall - when he got news that Ned is imprisoned in KL and heard Thorne say " “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” , he completely lost it and tried to kill him. Somehow nobody dislikes him for an attempted murder. Somehow Cat just saying "it should've been you" is way worse.

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Thats incredibly subjective. It can equally be argued that Cat had previously made it clear she didn't want anything to do with him.

Eliza, it's fine if SHE doesn't want anything to do with him. He isn't looking for her society either in that scene. He'd be happy if she weren't in the room! It's Cat who wants to deny him actively to say his farewells to his brother.

So how you can take these few sentences and compound she has somehow emotionally abused Jon for the last 14 years is incredible. You're simply projecting incidences that simply didn't happen. Was Cat harsh to Jon? Yes. But to somehow draw out that she has bullied him with no other indication from this chapter onwards is more than a bit of a stretch.

These quotes are the most we have about their relationship and they show a vivid picture. I draw implications from the text because it's implied that Cat making Jon feel unwelcome wasn't a single incident. He is pretty obviously afraid to even step into the room. Why is that if she has always been just withdrawn? That shouldn't send Jon running and crying. He isn't a coward after all.

So no verbal abuse or bullying according to GRRM.

It probably depends on what you understand as "verbal abuse". I'm sure she didn't call him "f***ing bastard, you useless piece of sh*t!" But I can imagine she said/expressed such things like "What are you doing here?" or "We don't want you here" on a more regular basis. We have only Jon's POV to go on of course, he mentions 2 instances unconnected to the Bran incident. Jon isn't objective of course, but he doesn't hate Cat and his feelings are what count on that matter. They are very clear - he feels fear, reluctance, nervousness when he can't avoid her.

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BTW, here's how Jon dealt with the stress and grief in a similar situation to Cat's after Bran fall - when he got news that Ned is imprisoned in KL and heard Thorne say " “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” , he completely lost it and tried to kill him. Somehow nobody dislikes him for an attempted murder. Somehow Cat just saying "it should've been you" is way worse.

Well, I don't remember Jon making nasty comments on Bran while he was with Cat at Bran's bed the way Thorne commented on Ned. :) If he had said things like "Oh well, Bran was a useless little brat anyway... no loss, really" she would have been completely justified in my mind to feel somewhat homicidal toward Jon. :D

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I know the blaming her for the boys apparent death was an emotional thing just because Rickon I felt for the boys without their mother. She was probably more use with Robb. I blamed Theon massively as well and still hold it against him even though it turns out he didn't actually kill them. I think in this series I find it hard to get over my first reaction to events!

As with Neds chapter. In the book he doesn't want to go to Kings Landing at first but she persuades him its the best thing to do. It maybe this was an argument he would have had with himself and still gone but I read it as being an awful lot of presure from her. She read the symbol of the dead direwolf as maybe a result of Robert's wrath if Ned refused IIRC. This isn't the same as killing him but I blamed her partly. Honestly its probable because I didn't enjoy her self loathing POVs and wanted an escape goat. I would have been well annoyed if Robb died but she survived the RW.

In her chapter Catelyn seems to show some desire to go south with him. She wasn't just sending him south while planning to stay cozily in Winterfell but when she objected to staying in the North he insisted that she had to. And after Bran's fall she begged him not to go. He still went. I can't say I feel all that pressure Ned was under from Cat. (Besides, even Maester Luwin told him he should go to KG so it's not just Cat). I think the pressure came more from Robert, since he's the one asking him to go South to serve as his Hand.

It probably depends on what you understand as "verbal abuse". I'm sure she didn't call him "f***ing bastard, you useless piece of sh*t!" But I can imagine she said/expressed such things like "What are you doing here?" or "We don't want you here" on a more regular basis. We have only Jon's POV to go on of course, he mentions 2 instances unconnected to the Bran incident. Jon isn't objective of course, but he doesn't hate Cat and his feelings are what count on that matter. They are very clear - he feels fear, reluctance, nervousness when he can't avoid her.

"Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No." I'm only taking GRRM at his word here. He said that she tried to ignore him as best she could, which to me, denotes that she wouldn't go out of her way to be mean to him just for the sake of it. The only instances where Jon reflects negatively on Cat that I can recall right now is that he felt her displeasure when he was better than Robb at something, or when she refused to let him sit at the High Table with the King and Queen so as not to offend them (and honestly, it would have offended them so she was justified there).

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Personally, I've never understood the massive hate against Catelyn. At all. In fact, she's one of my favorite characters. How could I not love a mother who fiercely loves her children and does everything in her power to keep them safe?

On leaving Bran and Rickon in Winterfell: They were "safe" in a huge castle that was, at the time she left, properly manned and guarded. Even after Robb left and went to war, it was still safe. She warned Robb not to send Theon away to the Iron Islands, but he did anyways; and then Theon betrayed them and fake-murdered Bran and Rickon. Had Catelyn been there, the same damn thing would've happened, except that Ramsay probably would've raped her a hundred times before killing her as well. Catelyn is only one woman; she wouldn't have been able to do jack to stop that from happening. Theon tricked Ser Rodrick into leaving the castle unguarded, and that was what got them screwed. Also, she chose to stay with Robb because he was a 14 year-old fighting a war. In her eyes - and I agree with her 100% here - it would be a better choice to help that son with the political side of the war than stay at home with her two younger sons. If Robb were to lose the war, the Starks and the North would lose everything and fall to pieces, and then Bran and Rickon would be in danger. She chose to help Robb in order to protect her remaining children.

On convincing Ned to go to KL: When the king asks you to be his right hand man, you can't just say no and expect life to go on. Robert was Ned's best friend; Ned's foster father died under suspicious circumstances; and the kingdom was amiss. She might have offered reasons for him to go to King's Landing, but in the end, Ned is a grown man and leader of the household (and the North). It was his decision to go to KL. Catelyn didn't make him go. And she also didn't force him to make the incredibly stupid (though noble) decisions/moves that lead to his death.

On her treatment of Jon Snow: I could go on and on about this, but I'll be quick since it's been talked about a lot already in this thread. GRRM himself said that she didn't abuse him for the first fourteen years of his life. The comment she made about Bran was cruel, but she was absolutely grief-stricken and believed her son was going to die. I've said a lot of awful things when I'm upset - and I've never been upset to the point where Catelyn was. (I can bet that nearly everyone that hates Catelyn for saying this has also wished death on someone before.) She wasn't in her right mind. She may have been cold to him, but cold isn't the same thing as being cruel or mean. Instead of abusing him like people seem to think she did, Catelyn did her best to avoid Jon. People should remember that what Ned did - bringing his "bastard" home to be raised with his trueborn children - was completely unheard of, with the exception of the Sand Snakes in Dorne. But Dorne is different from the North. Oberyn was never married and Dorne is different politically and culturally. Bringing Jon was a terrible affront to Cately and like a slap in the face. But she didn't go out of her way to make his life miserable. So she wasn't the loving maternal figure that Jon needed. Well, no one but the readers expected her to be one either, not even Ned. Had he wanted that, he would've explained how Jon came to be born instead of just showing up with him and telling her...absolutely nothing.

And before anyone says that I'm just saying this because I hate Jon - it's not. I love Jon. He's one of my top 3 favorite characters. Side note: Ned and Catelyn may have talked about sending Jon to the Wall because Catelyn didn't want to raise her husband's bastard, but Jon had been pushing the idea of taking the black and joining the Night's Watch on them already. He got his wish. Win/win for everybody - until he found out what the Night's Watch was really made of.

On Catelyn causing the war: What. the. Hell. As someone already said, Littlefinger pretty much caused the war. He tricked Lysa into killing her husband and framing the Lannisters. Then, he tricked Catelyn and Ned into believing Tyrion had tried to have their son murdered. Catelyn had no reason to not believe her own sister and the man who had grown up beside her and even loved her, even if he was a creep in our eyes. The ball was already rolling by the time she captured Tyrion and took him to the Eyrie. Had she gone to KL, she probably would've gotten in trouble with the King and not any help from him. The Lannisters have been in control of the throne, not Robert. He was just there to act the part. So no Catelyn didn't start the war; Littlefinger did. Oh, and Tywin Lannister, who ordered Gregor Clagene to pillage, rape, burn, and murder the RIverlands. Hell, we could say Rhaegar caused both wars if you want to go crazy. Had Rhaegar not gone all prophecy crazy or kidnapped/ran off with/whatever theory you take with Lyanna Stark, then Robert would never have gone to war and taken over the throne; then the entire second war would never have happened because the Targaryens would still be ruling. Right? Because that's just as logical.

On Catelyn's decisions leading to hers and Robb's deaths/the Red Wedding: Nope. That's absolutely ridiculous. You know what lead to the Red Wedding? The plotting between Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Jeyne Westerling's mother. Yeah, they made that happen. Tywin already considered Jaime's goose to be cooked, so it would've happened had Catelyn not let him go. (Oh, another important note: with Bran and Rickon "dead", Sansa was heir to Winterfell. Hm, it's probably a bad idea of the heir of Winterfell to be in Lannister hands and they should really get her back. Something bad could happen, like her getting married off to a Lannister, and then there goes Winterfell because their are no more Stark heirs besides her.) You know who else lead to the Red Wedding? Robb Stark. That honorable to a fault idiot, just like his father. Catelyn won the Freys and Robb lost them. He broke the agreement that lead to their fealty to him and married Jeyne Westerling because he took her virginity, which severely decreased her value, and perhaps because he loved her in the end. Robb's decisions led to the Freys betraying him. He, just like Ned, got himself killed - and his mother and half of his men. I would like to know what decisions Catelyn made that caused the Freys to betray them. Just curious.

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Imagine your husband strayed and brought his bastard home before you bring home his rightful heir.

That is hard to forgive

Fourteen years later in a happy marriage.

You see that three of your own children love Jon and call him their brother.

I think there are references in the text that Robb, Bran and Arya were fond of Jon and loved him as brother.

Sansa seems a bit reserved towards Jon and - according to Arya - calls Jon her half-brother. I don't recall if Rickon was very fond of Jon.

Mind you, I can understand that Catelyn can't find it in her heart to love or like Jon.

She clearly sees him as her husbands responsibiliy - as he in fact is.

What I found a bit tough to understand is that as a mother Catelyn was prepared to separate Robb and Jon, who grew up close as brothers.

Robb had to be the Stark at Winterfell when Ned was away being Hand to Robert.

Jon could have been a great friend and support to Robb.

From a rational point of view I understand that she wanted Jon not at Winterfell. But I thought it a bit disregardful towards Robb.

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"Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No." I'm only taking GRRM at his word here. He said that she tried to ignore him as best she could, which to me, denotes that she wouldn't go out of her way to be mean to him just for the sake of it. The only instances where Jon reflects negatively on Cat that I can recall right now is that he felt her displeasure when he was better than Robb at something, or when she refused to let him sit at the High Table with the King and Queen so as not to offend them (and honestly, it would have offended them so she was justified there).

I just judged from the text as written in the books and I don't see any verbal abuse of the kind i mentioned in the above post. There is another instance that he remembers that she was looking at him like she grudged him every bite. And she probably did... so she expressed her feelings alright. :D And he picked up on her feelings easy enough and he did feel hurt as a matter of fact. You may of course think, that's nothing, other people have it way worse, he should not be such a sissy, that he is emo or whatever, but you can't deny that that's what he felt and that it's Cat who evoked these feelings.

Whether you call that verbal abuse or something different..., is rather pointless to discuss, she can express herself rather well nonverbally too. Her children knew about the difficult relationship between Cat and Jon too, as witnessed by Robb's question about Cat's reaction when Jon came back from Bran's room.

As to the situation with the High table: I agree with you and I think that it was Ned's wish as well as Cat's to hide Jon in the back. (for different motives of course...) He felt slighted of course, but the status of a bastard is not enviable in that world.

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I think Catelyn is a character that is well written.

It shows that she has insight (at times she gives Robb some pretty good advice), but she had poor insight too.

-1- In the books Ned doesn't want to leave Winterfell. Catelyn urges him to do so (in the TV show this was shown differently, as Catelyn opposing Ned's wish to serve Robert ). Family. Duty. Honor. She chose not for Family.

How is wishing her daughter to be placed at the pinnacle of their society (Sansa as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms - House Stark and House Tully would then have descendants placed upon the Iron Throne, which in turn would lead to advantages for her other children and her grandchildren) not choosing family?

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I just judged from the text as written in the books and I don't see any verbal abuse of the kind i mentioned in the above post. There is another instance that he remembers that she was looking at him like she grudged him every bite. And she probably did... so she expressed her feelings alright. :D And he picked up on her feelings easy enough and he did feel hurt as a matter of fact. You may of course think, that's nothing, other people have it way worse, he should not be such a sissy, that he is emo or whatever, but you can't deny that that's what he felt and that it's Cat who evoked these feelings.

Whether you call that verbal abuse or something different..., is rather pointless to discuss, she can express herself rather well nonverbally too. Her children knew about the difficult relationship between Cat and Jon too, as witnessed by Robb's question about Cat's reaction when Jon came back from Bran's room.

As to the situation with the High table: I agree with you and I think that it was Ned's wish as well as Cat's to hide Jon in the back. (for different motives of course...) He felt slighted of course, but the status of a bastard is not enviable in that world.

As this is the perenial dispute, I have taken the liberty of rcycling an old post of mine.

"Catelyn is not a housewife. She is the chatelaine of a huge feudal institution. She did not bathe her children, she did not cook for her children, she didn't tend to their boo-boos. She has the help for that. She is a high-status political wife who is amazingly shamed by her husband's public insult by passing off his by-blow in her own household.

Despite the fact that Ned's insistence that Jon live among them shamed her among her peers and is vastly insulting to House Tully, Catelyn never did anything other than remain aloof (except the Bran incident).

She did allow Jon to live in the same apartments as her children, not some barrack or garret somewhere, she did allow him to eat at the same table as her children, not down in some basement with the servants, she did allow him be dressed as well and as richly as her own children, not attire him in cast-offs and burlap, she did allow him to receive the exact same noble-class education as her own sons by a maester and a master-at-arms, and not set him to spend his days mucking out stables or dredging the moat.

Truly what a horrible person she must be.

If Jon felt out of place and not in the family circle of luv, that is Ned's fault, not hers. "

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