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And the Iron Thrones goes to...


Lady Octarina

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I know there are probably far too many posts with this question, but I put it here because I'd like to know your opinion after everything we learned from A Dance with Dragons and what little the Winds of Winter chapter available tells us, and the new players we've been introduced to: by the end of book seven, who will be sitting on the Iron Throne? Do you think there will be one only king/queen at all, or will Westeros become truly Seven Kingdoms once more?

Most people seem to consider strenght, the possession of dragons, or political ability/alliances as the sole requisites to winning the game of thrones, but I think one of the main things we should keep in mind when considering this question is: GRRM will finish the series in Book 7. After seven books of war, Westeros needs some peace, which means that whoever rules must produce some sort of stability in that land. And History teaches us that one of the surest ways to secure stability (if not the only) in a monarchy after a long war is a clarity about who the heir to the throne will be when the current monarch dies. I'm pretty sure that, considering this general "rule", two contestants are excluded from this final victory:

- Daenerys: as far as we know she can't have any more children. I know many people think (or hope) Mirri Maz Duur was lying when she said that, but I don't think so. Her magic made Dany dive birth to a dead monster, and she was only what? 13? That ought to have affected her body somehow. She's already the Mother of Dragons, and "Mother" of her adopted people (the slaves), I doubt she will ever be mother to any other thing. She has already fulfilled that part enough.

- Stannis: Shireen has greyscale, and after everything we've seen about how that disease affects people, I do believe Val when she says te girl is doomed. Not to mention all the prejudices related to this disease. Stannis has no other child; unless he adopts Edric Storm or some other of his brother's bastards, he'll be left heirless. And I simply can't see Stannis caring too much about producing another heir, or re-marrying if necessary.

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Well if the R+L=J theroy is right, then Jon Snow (or should I say Jon Targaryen) would be a logical choice. He doesn't have any children yet, but he's still plenty young enough.

However I think it's quite likely Westeros will fragment. Maybe not back into Seven distinct kingdoms, but into a good 3 or 4 independent kingdoms. There's just too much infighting to make the Iron Throne work, and if a rival faction gets ahold of one of the Dragons, then Dany's trump card is no more.

Certain factions might set aside their differences temporarily to fight the Others, but I don't think they'll stay together for the long term. Too much bad blood exists for the Seven Kingdoms to really work anymore.

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The Vale will go to the north if Sansa gets control of it. The Iron Islands may go to the north simply because I hope Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryan burns those overrated islands to the ground.

Kingdom 1 :

The North

The Iron Islands(razed to the ground)

The Riverlands

The Vale

Kingdom 2:

Dorne

The Reach

The Crownlands

The Stormlands

The Rock(razed to the ground)

Bloody fair deal IMO. Maybe the North and the South will be joined by marriage. The top family in the South would be a targaryan and the top family in the north will be a stark and only those two families can marry each other and rule as one of ice and fire. Makes alot of sense for Jon Stark to be the first King.

Maybe the Iron throne gets relocated to somewhere in the Riverlands.

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I think the kingdoms are headed toward serious fragmentation.

I see two possibilities:

1. Two large kingdoms along a north-south divide, like David C. Simmons described.

2. Multiple smaller kingdoms, divided largely along pre-Targaryen lines. In that case, I see the North, Vale and Riverlands being their own kingdom, held together by the Starks/Tullys and their marriages. Depending on who ends up controlling the Iron Islands, I could see the Greyjoys allying with the northern state, if not full-out annexation. I think the Stormlands will stay in Baratheon hands through Shireen or one of Robert's bastards. Dorne will go back to being Dorne. Tyrion or some fortunate Lannister will hold the Westerlands and might make an attempt to annex the Reach (which I think, if it's its own kingdom, could pass into Tarly hands from the Tyrells; the upstarts would get upstarted the same way they replaced House Gardener). The Crownlands would be a Targaryen state (if any are left) or would dissolve and hook up with neighboring states.

Whatever happened, if there's still an Iron Throne at the end whose seat-warmer still holds sway over the entire realm, I'll be pretty shocked.

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Bloody fair deal IMO. Maybe the North and the South will be joined by marriage. The top family in the South would be a targaryan and the top family in the north will be a stark and only those two families can marry each other and rule as one of ice and fire. Makes alot of sense for Jon Stark to be the first King.

I dont like this idea.

Too symbolic.

I want things to be more realistic rather that symbolistic stuff that would be to fairytale-ish.

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I think the only chance of it remaining one sole kingdom would be if Jon got the Iron Throne. He would have the North's support, obviously. Through Sansa, the Riverlands and the Vale, I suppose. Assuming Stannis stays alive and Stom's End is returned to him, he could support Jon. If Tyrion became the Lord of Casterly Rock, he would support him as well. The Iron Islands would most likely have to submit through force; the Tyrells are always open to negotiations. The only problem could be Dorne, but Jon was born there (assuming the R + L = J theory is true), maybe that counts for something? And he could always take a Dornish woman for wife; maybe even Arianne.

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I think Dorne might be displeased if Jon takes the throne, simply because he is evidence that Rhaegar cheated on their beloved Elia. Maybe not pissed, but more than a little discontented, especially when they have Aegon, who they believe to be the trueborn son of Rhaegar by his (first) wife, Elia, and thus, Aegon's claim definitely supersedes Jon's, even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna. Actually, that's something that I've not heard talk of: How does Dorne feel about Rhaegar\s conspicuous relations with Lyanna Stark?

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I think the only chance of it remaining one sole kingdom would be if Jon got the Iron Throne. He would have the North's support, obviously. Through Sansa, the Riverlands and the Vale, I suppose. Assuming Stannis stays alive and Stom's End is returned to him, he could support Jon. If Tyrion became the Lord of Casterly Rock, he would support him as well. The Iron Islands would most likely have to submit through force; the Tyrells are always open to negotiations. The only problem could be Dorne, but Jon was born there (assuming the R + L = J theory is true), maybe that counts for something? And he could always take a Dornish woman for wife; maybe even Arianne.

All of this assuming he's not dead...

And yes, Dorne might become a problem.... but the theory that he marries Arianne or even one of the Sand Snakes is pretty interesting !

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There seem to be some forces working toward maintaining a semblence of unity and others pushing the continent back toward fragmentation. It could go either way in that regard, though much of the nobility still treats the Iron Throne as having very significant meaning.

Daenerys could potentially conquer Westeros but until she has an heir the stability of her reign would remain in doubt. There is a considerable chance that her final fate involves something other than seizing the Westerosi throne.

Stannis also has difficulties on the heir issue. His rule would probably be one of the more stable though provided he did not have to fight Daenerys.

Jon has the issues of whether he actually would want the throne, whether R + L would be believed throughout the realm and whether a claim through Lyanna would actually be taken seriously. Him being on the throne also trivializes the war by raises the issue of the fact that the war could have been averted by revealing the secret early on.

I anticipate that it may not be one of the obvious choices for literary reasons, although the person(s) will have some realistic path to the throne.

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I think Dorne might be displeased if Jon takes the throne, simply because he is evidence that Rhaegar cheated on their beloved Elia. Maybe not pissed, but more than a little discontented, especially when they have Aegon, who they believe to be the trueborn son of Rhaegar by his (first) wife, Elia, and thus, Aegon's claim definitely supersedes Jon's, even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna. Actually, that's something that I've not heard talk of: How does Dorne feel about Rhaegar\s conspicuous relations with Lyanna Stark?

That's one of the things I'm most curious about: how does Dorne feel about the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna issue? Because they did hide there, even if one the border; everyone certainly knew they were there, they could have attacked Lyanna after Rhaegar went to fight Robert; pissing Rhaegar off wouldn't be a problem, because his heirs were half-Dornish anyway. And yet they did nothing. We have seen that they behave in a more "liberal" way toward sexuality when compared to the rest of Westeros; maybe they don't take cheating as seriously either. I also find it relevant that none of the Dornish ever uttered anything against Rhaegar or Lyanna in the books. His marriage to Elia was a political alliance, and somehow I think that makes the whole difference. He could also have some sort of agreement with Elia, and her brothers might have known about it. We do know he was planning on changing a few things, politically speaking; maybe they knew what it was and supported him. The dragon has three heads; if he had three children, with two different women, maybe he could be planning something about a triumvirate? It would be highly symbolic, and Rhaegar was that sort of person.

About Aegon, I'm more inclined to believe he is a fake, and who knows? Maybe so is Doran. And I simply can't envision him surviving this war. And anyway, I know it's kind of an absurd idea, but if Rhaegar was so much into the "song of ice and fire" idea and believed his child with Lyanna to be it, TPTWP, then he could have written something designating that child his main heir or something, before h went to war, before the child was even born. Who knows?

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I think it was a secret place... I wonder how Ned found it but I'm sure Rhaegar choosed a place a few knew about !

Really? I know it's in the middle of the desert or something, but I was always under the impression it was generally known in Dorne lol

Anyway, the rest of the theory stands :thumbsup:

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And anyway, I know it's kind of an absurd idea, but if Rhaegar was so much into the "song of ice and fire" idea and believed his child with Lyanna to be it, TPTWP, then he could have written something designating that child his main heir or something, before h went to war, before the child was even born. Who knows?

I don't know if I believe that Rhaegar though baby Jon (if the theory is true) to be TPTWP. He believed it was Aegon (his son by Elia) due to a comet seen on the boy's birth. However, he could have been mistaken and TPTWP ended up being his unplanned lovechild.

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I think the only chance of it remaining one sole kingdom would be if Jon got the Iron Throne. He would have the North's support, obviously. Through Sansa, the Riverlands and the Vale, I suppose. Assuming Stannis stays alive and Stom's End is returned to him, he could support Jon. If Tyrion became the Lord of Casterly Rock, he would support him as well. The Iron Islands would most likely have to submit through force; the Tyrells are always open to negotiations. The only problem could be Dorne, but Jon was born there (assuming the R + L = J theory is true), maybe that counts for something? And he could always take a Dornish woman for wife; maybe even Arianne.

Why would Stannis and Tyrion support Jon? What would be in it for the Reach?

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Tyrion just because he likes him. That's enough for him! ^^

I like the idea of Rhaegar having wrote something (a poem, a song), somewhere, hidden, for his secret son. Would be in accordance with what we know of the character!

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Why would Stannis and Tyrion support Jon? What would be in it for the Reach?

It's personalized politics. They sympathize with him, so if there wasn't any reason to incline them the opposite direction, they would support him. Stannis would if he was convinced he'd be a good king, fight the Others, etc. And if Jon really is AA, like many believe, I wouldn't see another option. Besides, sooner or later he will realize he'll never have enough support by himself to be king, so it's best if he chooses a different strategy. Don't get me wrong, I love Stannis, I think he is far more cunning than anyone gives him credit for, but he is hated throughout Westeros, he'll hardly get support from the most powerful Lords, so it's unlikely he can remain in the Throne. I'm convinced he'll either die or resign - most liely resign in Jon's favor.

Tyrion has friendly feelings for Jon, and he would certainly support him if Jon in turn supported him for Lord of Casterly Rock, which I believe he will do (since, really, I can't see him having Jaime or Cersei for allies).

The Tyrells will support anyone if they see enough advantages in doing so. Their primary purpose seems to be to have descendants on the throne. They could offer Margaery's hand to Jon, if she comes out of all of it alive, which I doubt. If they joined him early enough, they could be later rewarded with even more lands and power. He could always offer one of them a political station, a place in his Council, etc. Really, the Tyrells are too ambitious, the easiest to change sides.

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Tyrion just because he likes him. That's enough for him! ^^

I like the idea of Rhaegar having wrote something (a poem, a song), somewhere, hidden, for his secret son. Would be in accordance with what we know of the character!

I have always been of the opinion that the song he sang to Lyanna was something extremely important, and I wish we had the lyrics. It is said that it made Lyanna cry. I am almost certain that it is the "Song of Ice and Fire" referred to by the series' title.

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Daenerys seems to be a likely AA candidate if there actually is meant to be a clearly discernable AA. However, any such AA may not ever gain the throne or even survive the series. It would be a bit excessive to have one person do too much to "save" the day suddenly at the end.

What I see happening in the next two (or maybe three) books is that there will be a post-Lannister monarch followed by either a breakup of the realm or a subsequent final sovereign who is on the throne at the end. Stannis, Daenerys, and/or Aegon all seem to have reasonable chances of gaining the throne as of ADWD but there may be some plot twists and deaths that leave some other candidate as the king/queen. If someone takes the throne in TWOW this person may not necessarily hold it at the end of ADOS.

Jon might get it but it remains to be seen whether the realm as a whole would actually give him any real support or consider R + L as presenting a sufficiently valid or provable claim (depends on their views of Rhaegar's possible multiple marriages). The realm seems to have trouble agreeing on a single claimant, a fact which would still affect Jon.

Rhaegar and Aemon seem almost as confused about the PTWP as Melisandre is about Azor Ahai.

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They could offer Margaery's hand to Jon, if she comes out of all of it alive,

Baratheon. Lannister... Stark... haha, bloody Marg...

But it'd be more interesting of Jon, if he was to be king to marry Arianne Martell.

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I have a feeling no one at the end of A Dream of Spring is interested on sitting an iron throne, which can only give you cold cheeks.

The few who managed to survive the first years of winter have gone underground and spend the rest of the long night telling eachother The Old Nan Chronicles, counting the crumbs of food in the larder.

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