Catelyn: Even more misunderstood than before

[Fredward]

Actually, come to think of it I'm not even sure I've seen anyone on the entire internet change their opinion...

That's just cuz everyone else on the internetz is dumb. :P

Personally I've never had a problem with Cat, not even un!Cat. Then again I'm a pretty mellow fella. So she's a bitchface to Jon, he'll get over it. I don't think it really qualifies as a emotionally scarring back story. I can understand (don't agree) with why she treats him like that too.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

There is but one solution then: people who believe that circumstances matter would kindly gather on the left, people who believe that circumstances don't matter on the right (or vice versa, no political implications meant), and start their own threads, each to their own. This is no longer about Catelyn but about relative versus absolute values, and I don't think we can find a common ground.

Do you believe that circumstances are the only factor to decide on someone's actions and people have no inkling of free will whatsoever? While I agree that circumstances make choices harder or easier, there is never only one way to go with your inner decisions. If we allow (and I allow) that in Westeros bastard children where threated badly overall and that Catelyn in no way had to like her husband's son with another woman very much, her personal choice to deal with it by making Jon constantly feel bad is low. You do not like something? Then you fight it - preferably with your husband - make him send the child away, give your best, but if you fail at it or if you are afraid of what your husband might say, if you are too weak to fight the strong, then leave it be. Demeaning a weaker one for 14 years is not a thing that should ever be justified by circumstances.

[The King in the South]

I don't have any interest in going down this road. As you very accurately noted earlier, neither one of us is going to convince the other. I just wanted to point out the irony of asking for forgiveness and acceptance for Cat based on circumstances (and I am certain that you have seen this argument made) while calling Ned's actions cruel or evil.

No I agree blaming one and not the other is incorrect. However, if you want to blame Cat for being cruel/un kind, than you also have to give some of the blame to Ned.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

No I agree blaming one and not the other is incorrect. However, if you want to blame Cat for being cruel/un kind, than you also have to give some of the blame to Ned.

Then we agree, I do think Cat was unkind to Jon and I do think Ned was unkind to Cat by not telling her the truth (and this was also unkind to Jon because I do think Cat would have been nicer to him and kept his secret if she knew the truth), but I don't think either of these actions makes them evil people.

[The King in the South]

Then we agree, I do think Cat was unkind to Jon and I do think Ned was unkind to Cat by not telling her the truth (and this was also unkind to Jon because I do think Cat would have been nicer to him and kept his secret if she knew the truth), but I don't think either of these actions makes them evil people.

Why were we arguing again?

I must have gotten you mixed up or something.

Personally I'm not even really a Cat fan, I just can't stand to see when people (not you, as I now see) say she's a cruel person and than preach that people like Jaime (whom I love) are decent guys.

And of course, that doesn't even get me started on the people who say things like, "Well I hate Cat more than Gregor Clegane"

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Why were we arguing again?

I must have gotten you mixed up or something.

Personally I'm not even really a Cat fan, I just can't stand to see when people (not you, as I now see) say she's a cruel person and than preach that people like Jaime (whom I love) are decent guys.

And of course, that doesn't even get me started on the people who say things like, "Well I hate Cat more than Gregor Clegane"

:agree:

[FanTasy]

And of course, that doesn't even get me started on the people who say things like, "Well I hate Cat more than Gregor Clegane"

Good grief! People say things like this, in earnest? Forums are weird places :o

[The King in the South]

Good grief! People say things like this, in earnest? Forums are weird places :o

I don't have a link, but I remember hearing about a poll or something where Cat was the no.1 most hated character in the entire series or something. = /

[mediocre cheese]

I hate catelyn more than gregor clegane. Not that I hate Catelyn (at all really, I find her an interesting character, while sometimes disagreeing with what she did), but I will always have a warm spot in my heart for the man who crushed the skull of oberyn martell lame awesomesauce cliche

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

I hate catelyn more than gregor clegane. Not that I hate Catelyn (at all really, I find her an interesting character, while sometimes disagreeing with what she did), but I will always have a warm spot in my heart for the man who crushed the skull of oberyn martell lame awesomesauce cliche

I hate catelyn more than gregor clegane. Not that I hate Catelyn (at all really, I find her an interesting character, while sometimes disagreeing with what she did), but I will always have a warm spot in my heart for the man who crushed the skull of oberyn martell lame awesomesauce cliche

Not that you couldn't see that coming :) I remember reaching the lines there Clegane lost his sword and Martell was *definitely* wining. And I put down the book and went on for a few minutes trying to imagine the happy world where it really ended like that. But i knew I must go back and read what really happened. Ouch.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Do you believe that circumstances are the only factor to decide on someone's actions and people have no inkling of free will whatsoever? While I agree that circumstances make choices harder or easier, there is never only one way to go with your inner decisions. If we allow (and I allow) that in Westeros bastard children where threated badly overall and that Catelyn in no way had to like her husband's son with another woman very much, her personal choice to deal with it by making Jon constantly feel bad is low. You do not like something? Then you fight it - preferably with your husband - make him send the child away, give your best, but if you fail at it or if you are afraid of what your husband might say, if you are too weak to fight the strong, then leave it be. Demeaning a weaker one for 14 years is not a thing that should ever be justified by circumstances.

I don't know how to do a cheerleader smiley with pompoms, but wow ...awesomely put. Sums up my exact feelings perfectly.

I don't hate Cat. I think she is responsible for a lot of the good in her kids and overall tries to be a good person (which is certainly more of a challenge in her life than most of us will ever face). I cannot say how I would face everything that she is asked to face...I just ...yeah. What you said.

[MaryaStone]

I disagree. Threads should welcome every opinion. And I took it that this thread originated in that Catelyn may have been misunderstood because she was 'judged' by moral issues.

I agree with you that there probably will not be consensus though ... :)

In my view, the point of expressing one's opinions is not changing other people's views. It's trying to explain why we think one way or another, and making our worldview wider and richer by getting to know why others think differently. Thinking that the way one sees the world is the only one is pretentious and arrogant.

I like exchanging views with people who express their opinions in a reasonable and open way. It doesn't bother me to see we don't always agree, on the contrary, it's challenging and exciting to discuss issues with people who support their views and explain them without trying to diminish others. What I dislike is for some people (a minority) to join a thread with the only purpose of arguing for the sake of arguing, or pontificating and trying to show everybody else that they are always wrong and unable to understand anything.

It would be very boring if we stayed in separate threads only because we disagree. There's nothing wrong with having and expressing different opinions. What may be wrong is the way people express them sometimes.

And from time to time, we may realise that there are other ways to see things, and our opinions may vary, if only a little. If this ever happens, however infrequently, it'll be worth it.

There are people in this threads whose opinions are quite different from mine, but I've enjoyed very much reading their posts and sometimes they have taught me a thing or two. I'm glad I've had the chance to virtually meet them. :cheers:

[Ygrain]

Do you believe that circumstances are the only factor to decide on someone's actions and people have no inkling of free will whatsoever? While I agree that circumstances make choices harder or easier, there is never only one way to go with your inner decisions. If we allow (and I allow) that in Westeros bastard children where threated badly overall and that Catelyn in no way had to like her husband's son with another woman very much, her personal choice to deal with it by making Jon constantly feel bad is low. You do not like something? Then you fight it - preferably with your husband - make him send the child away, give your best, but if you fail at it or if you are afraid of what your husband might say, if you are too weak to fight the strong, then leave it be. Demeaning a weaker one for 14 years is not a thing that should ever be justified by circumstances.

No, I don't, and I never said anything like that. I claimed that circumstances may affect a person's behaviour to an extent that they perform acts they would not do in their right mind. Also, as someone has pointed out above, "forgive" - or "understand" - does not necessarily mean "condone"; after all, "disagree" does not require to "condemn", does it?

Besides, I was referring specifically to Catelyn's treatment of Jon at Bran's bed, while you refer now to their whole past and interpret it in a way that does not have any basis in the text, when it has been pointed out repeatedly that GRRM himself stated that it was an isolated incident.

[The GRRumbler]

No, I don't, and I never said anything like that. I claimed that circumstances may affect a person's behaviour to an extent that they perform acts they would not do in their right mind. Also, as someone has pointed out above, "forgive" - or "understand" - does not necessarily mean "condone"; after all, "disagree" does not require to "condemn", does it?

Besides, I was referring specifically to Catelyn's treatment of Jon at Bran's bed, while you refer now to their whole past and interpret it in a way that does not have any basis in the text, when it has been pointed out repeatedly that GRRM himself stated that it was an isolated incident.

Exactly, she didn't try to make jon feel bad constantly, they both just avoided each other, she was mean to him at that specific moment after Bran was attacked, wich is wrong, but is comprehensible given the situation.

[birdsong66]

I've honestly never really seen anyone on this forums change their opinion (or at least admit to it, sometimes they just stop responding)

Makes you wonder why we even bother

I have seen opinions change. There was a thread not too long back in which I argued that Arya was actually more like Catelyn than Lyanna, and while I'm not the best debater, there were other posters that did acknowledge, despite their own initial feelings, that there was some merit to the argument. Did it change their mind altogether? IDK, but being open to the idea that there is another perspective is why we bother. :)

Personally, I have changed my mind about a few things, due in small part to the threads here. I don't have a problem admitting that. But overall, it is GRRM who changes my mind by continuing to provide backstory, internal dialogue, etc. for characters with each novel.

In this, Jaime went from being an arrogant pretty boy with a sword, to being an arrogant pretty boy with a sword and an interesting, dare I say redeeming internal life which served to make him more sympathetic, possessing a level of decency despite his less than honorable acts.

Likewise with Tyrion. There is a kindness within him which is admirable. Do I love Tyrion? No, but I cannot deny that overall, he possesses compassion, kindness, and is a basically decent despite his less than honorable acts.

The problem with Catelyn is that she was presented consistently by GRRM from the first. Thus, the rather revealing internal dialogue given to characters like Jaime and Tyrion in later books, which allows us, the reader, to better understand their motivations, is notably absent for Catelyn. Who Jaime is on the surface is not who he is internally, and he is better internally, more than one would learn in a surface interaction. There's no real "wow" moment of revelation for Catelyn. No glaring inconsistency found out after the initial fleshing out of her character, motivations, by GRRM.

Also, for me the distinction between characters in a book, and IRL situations is paramount as to how I interpret the novels. I totally understand Catelyn's resentment because there is no real life consequence in doing so. But, if my next door neighbor acted in like manner to the boy her husband brought home, I would judge her harshly, which isn't terribly admirable on its face. If my husband brought home his love child from some coupling he had while gone for a year? I would not use Catelyn as my go to guide for interaction. I would understand that how we interact has yet to be written, but written by us, and only us. I may resent my husband for a time, but I would love the child as my own. But that's real life, where I try very hard to do the right thing. Through the novels, and Catelyn, I'm allowed to lay waste to all the "Freys" that have, or would do me, and mine, harm.

I've totally forgotten what we were talking about in the first place. Hee!

[The Storm Queen]

I have seen opinions change. There was a thread not too long back in which I argued that Arya was actually more like Catelyn than Lyanna, and while I'm not the best debater, there were other posters that did acknowledge, despite their own initial feelings, that there was some merit to the argument. Did it change their mind altogether? IDK, but being open to the idea that there is another perspective is why we bother. :)

Personally, I have changed my mind about a few things, due in small part to the threads here. I don't have a problem admitting that. But overall, it is GRRM who changes my mind by continuing to provide backstory, internal dialogue, etc. for characters with each novel.

In this, Jaime went from being an arrogant pretty boy with a sword, to being an arrogant pretty boy with a sword and an interesting, dare I say redeeming internal life which served to make him more sympathetic, possessing a level of decency despite his less than honorable acts.

Likewise with Tyrion. There is a kindness within him which is admirable. Do I love Tyrion? No, but I cannot deny that overall, he possesses compassion, kindness, and is a basically decent despite his less than honorable acts.

The problem with Catelyn is that she was presented consistently by GRRM from the first. Thus, the rather revealing internal dialogue given to characters like Jaime and Tyrion in later books, which allows us, the reader, to better understand their motivations, is notably absent for Catelyn. Who Jaime is on the surface is not who he is internally, and he is better internally, more than one would learn in a surface interaction. There's no real "wow" moment of revelation for Catelyn. No glaring inconsistency found out after the initial fleshing out of her character, motivations, by GRRM.

Also, for me the distinction between characters in a book, and IRL situations is paramount as to how I interpret the novels. I totally understand Catelyn's resentment because there is no real life consequence in doing so. But, if my next door neighbor acted in like manner to the boy her husband brought home, I would judge her harshly, which isn't terribly admirable on its face. If my husband brought home his love child from some coupling he had while gone for a year? I would not use Catelyn as my go to guide for interaction. I would understand that how we interact has yet to be written, but written by us, and only us. I may resent my husband for a time, but I would love the child as my own. But that's real life, where I try very hard to do the right thing. Through the novels, and Catelyn, I'm allowed to lay waste to all the "Freys" that have, or would do me, and mine, harm.

I've totally forgotten what we were talking about in the first place. Hee!

Can you send me a link for the Arya/Catelyn/Lyanna discussion? Because this is a pet theory of mine and I am happy that finally someone shares it :-)