re-read A Tour Of Dorne

[Candor]

Without Doran's POV, we can only guess if there is more behind his words and actions.

We know that he is different from his willful, impulsive relatives. We know him to be cautious and a careful thinker. He is weary of the ways of Westeros and frail but he is no fool. And yet we are not given any indication that he has a grander plan. For all of this "thinking", his plans have yielded nothing but failure

However, he sends Obara after Darkstar. He puts Nym on the council and sends Tyene to KL disguised as a septa. He prays that Sarella "will show more sense than her sisters", and tells Areo to "leave her to her game." Does this indicate that she is in Oldtown as Alleras as so many believe? And, if so, how much of her plans does he know?

We know that he was informed of about Arianne's intent to "crown" Myrcella and stopped it.

He clearly has informants within Dorne and possibly outside of it. Who? Varys? He obviously wants eyes and ears in KL and perhaps in Oldtown. Perhaps he is moving his pieces into place waiting to make the next move. (Can we hope?)

He needs allies. (I always come back to his comment to Arianne that "valor is a poor substitute for numbers.") He needs allies and the most logical place for allies is the Reach. Tarly or Hightower are possible.

But I wonder about Willas Tyrell. We know that he corresponded with Oberyn after his accident. These houses were allies during Robert's Rebellion despite their supposed hate for each other. And since Willas is thought to be smarter and more capable than his boob of a father, would he see value in aligning with Dorne once again in support of the Tagaryens?

This I could certainly buy if Willas was the head of house, not his father.

[carmela28]

This I could certainly buy if Willas was the head of house, not his father.

True. Mace is an ineffectual bag of wind and Olenna knows it. And she seems to "wear the pants" in House Tyrell. There is clearly plotting and scheming going on in Highgarden...none of which is clear to us.

[Candor]

True. Mace is an ineffectual bag of wind and Olenna knows it. And she seems to "wear the pants" in House Tyrell. There is clearly plotting and scheming going on in Highgarden...none of which is clear to us.

To the extent that she dares. She couldn't overrule some things Mace decided on, like brokering a marriage between Margaery and Renly, and then Joffrey, and then Tommen, even if she was against it.

That's GRRM showing us that even smart, bold ladies like Olenna still have to work within the confines their gender has given them in the world they live in.

[carmela28]

To the extent that she dares. She couldn't overrule some things Mace decided on, like brokering a marriage between Margaery and Renly, and then Joffrey, and then Tommen, even if she was against it.

That's GRRM showing us that even smart, bold ladies like Olenna still have to work within the confines their gender has given them in the world they live in.

Of course. I don't want to change the conversation in this thread from the Martells to the Tyrells. I just wanted to add to the disussion of who in the Reach might join up with Dorne, if the situation presented itself.

[Bran Vras]

About Doran's plans, I am amazed so few people realize that the Prince has built a web of alliance with the Free Cities. We know that

-- He married a Norvoshi.

-- He made a pact witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.

-- He has fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh.

-- His brother Oberyn has spend a good part of his life in Essos, and has founded a sellsword company (Is it one we know?).

-- His Seneschal Ricasso is probably an Essosi.

-- He has traveled to Volantis in his youth.

-- His captain of the guard is a Norvoshi.

-- He seems fond of Myrish blankets (gifts?).

-- He has informers in Lys.

-- The red priests are in Sunspear (I realized it reading this thread).

(No sign of relations with Pentos though.)

What relations has Doran Martell in Westeros outside of Dorne? Hostility with the Reach, two past alliances with the Targaryens, one current insincere alliance with the Lannisters, informers in the Citadel and King's Landing, Dornish wine trade. Is that all?

I have three provocative and speculative theories that I have explained elsewhere. 1) There was no sincere plans to ally with Viserys and Daenerys, 2) Doran does not care about Quentyn and 3) To understand Doran's policy forget the Game of Thrones and go back to the roots of Dorne with the Rhoynar and the events that preceded their arrival.

[mor2]

I admit, missing half of the items on the list above, I have some rereading todo ;)

[brashcandy]

About Doran's plans, I am amazed so few people realize that the Prince has built a web of alliance with the Free Cities. We know that

-- He married a Norvoshi.

-- He made a pact witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.

-- He has fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh.

-- His brother Oberyn has spend a good part of his life in Essos, and has founded a sellsword company (Is it one we know?).

-- His Seneschal Ricasso is probably an Essosi.

-- He has traveled to Volantis in his youth.

-- His captain of the guard is a Norvoshi.

-- He seems fond of Myrish blankets (gifts?).

-- He has informers in Lys.

-- The red priests are in Sunspear (I realized it reading this thread).

(No sign of relations with Pentos though.)

What relations has Doran Martell in Westeros outside of Dorne? Hostility with the Reach, two past alliances with the Targaryens, one current insincere alliance with the Lannisters, informers in the Citadel and King's Landing, Dornish wine trade. Is that all?

I have three provocative and speculative theories that I have explained elsewhere. 1) There was no sincere plans to ally with Viserys and Daenerys, 2) Doran does not care about Quentyn and 3) To understand Doran's policy forget the Game of Thrones and go back to the roots of Dorne with the Rhoynar and the events that preceded their arrival.

Please elaborate! :) I believe no 1 & 2 and would welcome clarification of your 3rd point.

[jarl the climber]

About Doran's plans, I am amazed so few people realize that the Prince has built a web of alliance with the Free Cities. We know that

-- He married a Norvoshi.

-- He made a pact witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.

-- He has fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh.

-- His brother Oberyn has spend a good part of his life in Essos, and has founded a sellsword company (Is it one we know?).

-- His Seneschal Ricasso is probably an Essosi.

-- He has traveled to Volantis in his youth.

-- His captain of the guard is a Norvoshi.

-- He seems fond of Myrish blankets (gifts?).

-- He has informers in Lys.

-- The red priests are in Sunspear (I realized it reading this thread).

(No sign of relations with Pentos though.)

What relations has Doran Martell in Westeros outside of Dorne? Hostility with the Reach, two past alliances with the Targaryens, one current insincere alliance with the Lannisters, informers in the Citadel and King's Landing, Dornish wine trade. Is that all?

I have three provocative and speculative theories that I have explained elsewhere. 1) There was no sincere plans to ally with Viserys and Daenerys, 2) Doran does not care about Quentyn and 3) To understand Doran's policy forget the Game of Thrones and go back to the roots of Dorne with the Rhoynar and the events that preceded their arrival.

This an interesting post, let me adress some of your points

He married a Novorshi- true but why?

He made a pact witnessed by the Sealord- Oberyn signed this pact, plausible deniability?

Fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyros- this is true but what the hell is an Archon?

Oberyn spent a great deal of time in Essos-According to Tyrion he rarely left Dorne after Elias death, was a member of the Second Sons did spend a lot of time in the Free Cities in his 20's

Seneschal Ricasso is from Essos- Have no idea

Traveled to Volantis in his youth- So hav a lot of other nobles, Tyrion called it doing the 9.

Areo is a Norvoshi-True

Fond of Myrish carpets- true but so are a lot of people

Has informers in Lys- true

Red priests are in Sunspear- true but there is at least 1 at the wall, 1 in riverlands, part of thier Rhoynish heritage?

Would also like to see you elaborate on your theories

[Alia of the knife]

About Doran's plans, I am amazed so few people realize that the Prince has built a web of alliance with the Free Cities. We know that

-- He married a Norvoshi.

-- He made a pact witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.

-- He has fostered the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh.

-- His brother Oberyn has spend a good part of his life in Essos, and has founded a sellsword company (Is it one we know?).

-- His Seneschal Ricasso is probably an Essosi.

-- He has traveled to Volantis in his youth.

-- His captain of the guard is a Norvoshi.

-- He seems fond of Myrish blankets (gifts?).

-- He has informers in Lys.

-- The red priests are in Sunspear (I realized it reading this thread).

(No sign of relations with Pentos though.)

What relations has Doran Martell in Westeros outside of Dorne? Hostility with the Reach, two past alliances with the Targaryens, one current insincere alliance with the Lannisters, informers in the Citadel and King's Landing, Dornish wine trade. Is that all?

I have three provocative and speculative theories that I have explained elsewhere. 1) There was no sincere plans to ally with Viserys and Daenerys, 2) Doran does not care about Quentyn and 3) To understand Doran's policy forget the Game of Thrones and go back to the roots of Dorne with the Rhoynar and the events that preceded their arrival.

Sorry if I misunderstand, but are you suggesting that though Dorne have always been Targ. "loyalists" they may have actually harbored an underlying resentment of them?

Certainly recent history has not boded well for their relationship though they pretend otherwise.

[Bran Vras]

I do not want to derail this thread devoted to a rereading of the Dorne chapters. This is why I will give only a very short form of the elaboration of my theories. Discussing all that would require a long conversation (see here for 1) and 2)). Let's say that people can have my theories in mind while they do their rereading on Dorne and give me feedback.

1a) About Viserys. The pact of marriage with Arianne is curious: Viserys was never informed of it, It was signed by Ser Willem Darry who had no authority to promise the hand of Viserys, Viserys and Dany were then abandoned and left to begging. Doran did not lift a single finger for them (of course he might have been afraid of Robert's wrath, but given Doran's connections in Essos, it wasn't hard to send some financial aid anonymously). So I conclude that Doran did not really want to marry Arianne to Viserys. The pact might not be even genuine.

1b) About Dany. For a supposedly careful player, Doran has lamentably prepared Quentyn's mission. Secrecy fails at the start of the mission in Planky Town. There is nobody close advisor of Doran accompanying Quentyn. Young Quentyn is completely unprepared to meet Dany (no gift, no advice). In Meereen, both Dany and Barristan are unimpressed by the pact. I will not list all the evidence I have accumulated, but the failure of the mission is due to more than mere miscalculation.

2) My conclusion regarding Quentyn is not orthodox but follows logically. I believe he is not Doran's son. House Martell had to pay a blood price to House Yronwood and paid it in false coin by sending an orphan from the Water Gardens. The fake Quentyn was sent to a hopeless mission and not expected to return.

3) That's the most speculative part. Yes, Alia of the Knife, it is based on the memory that the Rhoynar have retained of their near extermination by the Valyrians and their dragons. This memory still lives in Dorne at least among the Greenblood. I speculate that it lives in Doran Martell.

jarl the climber: Doran married Mellario for love (at least this is the official line). The Archon is the ruler of Tyrosh (according to the wiki). Oberyn founded his own company in Essos after leaving the Second Sons. Ricasso is under all likehood an Essosi name. Which noble has visited Volantis apart from Steffon Baratheon and Oberyn Martell? Who has visited the 9 cities? The Rhoynar worshipped Mother Rhoyne and not the Lord of Light.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for explaining your points, Bran Vras. I certainly think that Doran's strange lack of support for Viserys, and failure to let either him or Arianne know of the marriage pact indicates an unwillingness that went far beyond the need for secrecy. Maybe he had heard rumours of the boy's "issues" and was always - like Ilyrio and Varys - backing another Targ or no Targ at all. As for the Quentyn switch, I'm not so sure, but you'll get no argument from me that he was woefully unprepared and inept to make such an important proposal to a Dragon Queen no less.

As to your third point, I read the link to your thread and I think it's really a provocative idea. I've long maligned Doran Martell as a terrible plotter, but that could be precisely the image he wants to give out, if he has something else in mind that no one could possibly imagine. Hmmm, I'll think about it :) And if Littlefinger described himself as sentimental, then for sure we know something's up with Doran. Sentimental men are the most dangerous it seems.

[Candor]

AFFC – Arianne I: “The Queenmaker”

What happens:

This is the first of Princess Arianne's chapters. It is important simply for that fact, given that she seems to have been promoted to a regular status (at least 2 chapters have been confirmed for The Winds of Winter, one of which was read aloud at a convention. Check the Winds of Winter forum on this site for a summary of what it contained). We also see the closing of the plot to crown Myrcella, and the death of a POV character. Here. We. Go.

It starts off at the abandoned well at Shandystone, which we are told dried up 100 years prior, and given a brief description of its disarray, including that 'the sands had crept back in to reclaim their own.'

Arianne arrives with Drey and Sylva, two of her companions. She says that Garin, her milk-brother had arrived earlier that day, and that Darkstar, the day before. She is asked how she thought to come here, and she replies that Oberyn once took her, Tyene, and Sarella here for a trip. She expands the story, telling the group that he had taught Tyene to milk vipers for poison, and that Sarella had taken an interest in exploring the ruins and wondering about what life would have been like for the people who had once lived there (showing again that this Sand Snake is of an academic bent - another cheeky wink at the Sarella = Alleras theory). She gets asked what she had done that day, and she thinks this gem to herself:

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow's peak. The memory made her uneasy. "I dreamed," she said, "and when the sun went down, I sat cross-legged at my uncle's feet and begged him for a story.

Garin mentions that Oberyn knew a lot of stories, and one that he told was the story of Garin's namesake, Garin the Great, who 'made Valyria tremble.' As Darkstar tells it, this mythical Garin led a quarter of a million men to their deaths in war. After making a sarcastic comment, Darkstar goes to oil his sword.

Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords. If there was a handsomer man in Dorne, she did not know him. Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

Everyone starts pitching in to make camp at the ruins, and around a campfire they trade news: slave revolt in Astapor, dragons in Quarth, and a grey plague (form of greyscale in Yi Ti which I can assume is on the Jade Sea), a corsair king from the Basilisk Isles raided Tall Trees Town, and in Qohor, Rhollor followers tried to burn down something called the 'Black Goat.' There is also a mention of the Golden Company breaking contract with Myr. A few in the group believe the Lyseni bought them off, but Arianne suspects Quentyn bought them. She thinks he's trying to usurp her place with them, but she thinks that she is loved in Dorne and Quentyn is not.

Darkstar disappears for a while 'to take a piss'. Members of the group say they dislike him, but Arianne says they need his support.

The sun was gone, and the sky full of stars. So many. She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

She thinks about how Quentyn was fostered out to Lord Yronwood young, and how her mother never forgave her father for doing that. She says that she had friend in Planky Town who told her of her brother boarding a ship to the east, and how he had had scrolls with the Dornish seal on them. However, these friends did not actually open the scrolls to see what was written... when she is thinking about this, Darkstar reappears right by her.

"Princess." Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow.

"How was your piss?" Arianne inquired archly.

"The sands were duly grateful." Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. "It occured to me while I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want."

"And what is it I want, ser?"

"The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion blood."

That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father's seat. I want Dorne. "I want justice."

"Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked." Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies[1]. "This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel."

I am no murderer of children. "Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection. And Ser Arys will permit no harm to come to his precious princess, you know that."

"No, my lady. What I know is that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for several thousand years [2]."

His arrogance took her breath away. "It seems to me that Oakhearts have been killing Daynes for just as long."

Arys and Myrcella then arrive. Everyone pays her the honors due a queen. Myrcella is confused, so she clutches Arianne and ask why they say as they do. Arianne says she is the true queen because she is older than Tommen. She then does a set of formal introductions of her friends, which Myrcella regards cautiously

"My friends call me Drey," he said, "and I should be greatly honored if your Grace would do the same."

Though Drey had an open face and an easy smile, Myrcella regarded him warily. "Until I know you, I must call you ser."

Darkstar is annoyed when Myrcella hears his name and remarks about Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Ser Arys takes Arianne aside to talk to her. One line of news he imparts to her is that Tywin is dead. It's said it's Tyrion's doing, and that Cersei is Regent now. Arianne finds this to be good news. Arys tries to initiate sex, but she rebuffs him. She asks if he had any problems getting Myrcella to the ruins. Arys says only that Prince Trystane wanted to play cyvasse at Myrcella's bedside. They set out on their mission.

We are seven, Arianne realized as they rode. She had not thought of it before, but it seemed a good omen for their cause. Seven riders on their way to glory. One day the singers will make all of us immortal. Drey had wanted a larger party, but that might have attracted unwelcome attention, and every additional man doubled the risk of betrayal. That much my father taught me, at the least. Even when he was yougner and stronger, Doran Martell had been a cautious man much given to silences and secrets.

They ride for a while longer, and Myrcellas asks some questions. She is told the story of how Nymeria came to Dorne, long ago, and a story about Rhoynar gods. Drey says that Myrcella is quite good at cyvasse; he's heard she bests Trystane all the time.

"Hey always sets his squares up the same way, with all the mountains in the front and his elephants in the passes," said Myrcella. "So I send my dragon through to eat his elephants."

She imparts some more things, including:

"We traded places on the Seaswift, on the way to Braavos. Septa Eglantine put brown dyein my hair. She said we were doing it as a game, but it was meant to keep me safe in case the ship was taken by my uncle Stannis."

[3]

They ride to the Greenblood river. Arianne thinks they will travel up it, and crown Myrcella at Hellholt. But this of course, never happens. Areo Hotah and a squad of armed men are waiting, and demand they yield. Everyone does, apart from Ser Arys. He charged recklessly at the men, but is badly wounded, and Areo slices off his head, killing him. It is a chaotic scene,and Arianne does not see everything. She sees Myrcella's face streaked with blood, and hears Areo shouting for the men to go after someone, but she knows not who "he" is. She and her friends are captured.

What to make of it:

First off, I find it very intriguing that this title was called 'The Queenmaker.' It certainly fits what's going on, but given the disdain Princess Arianne showed during the story of Ser Criston Cole the Kingmaker, I have to wonder what the reason for placing that specific label on her premier chapter was. It could be as simple as she was trying to make Myrcella queen. It could also be ironic, as if GRRM is hinting that she is being as 'meddling" as Ser Criston was, or ironic in that the attempt fails spectacularly. Indeed we seem to see a lot of failure from the Dornish quarter early on, with some improvement later (in my personal opinion it is mostly Arianne who improves at The Game).

Darkstar is said to have arrived a day ahead of everyone else. Could he be the snitch, having told the prince that Arianne was planning this, and gone ahead to make preparations for the ambush? Why go to an abandoned ruin early? He doesn't seem the type to be ah, educationally curious about it, Ser-The-Sands-Are-Duly-Grateful, so I do have to wonder on that...

The next line that I was thought -red alert- over was the one about what Arianne was doing at the ruins all that time ago, dreaming about the robber knight with the black eyes and the widow's peak... Arianne, why are you fantasizing about your uncle Oberyn having his way with you? (Crackpot: She's secretly a Targ, we know they like to keep it in the family... KIDDING! Sincerely kidding, but it was odd). I wonder what we are supposed to make of this as readers. Is it just a reinforcement of the 'hot' Dornish culture we've been fed, where everyone is sexually liberated and wanton? Could be. Any other takes on it?

Later when Arianne is watching Darkstar, she thinks about his attractiveness, and that they'd have children as good-looking as dragonlords. There's a theory I've seen going around the boards lately: Darkstar = the true Aegon in hiding. This seems to give a wink towards that. I don't really support the theory, but it's interesting as a suggestion. That and the uncle sex fantasy just make this chapter come off a little haha, unusual. I can't believe I didn't catch that on the first read. You would think incest would be something that stands out against the text, but this is Westeros! :dunno:

DS sees Arianne looking at him, and smiles. That and the mention about it's good that Arys isn't there yet because there would be blood, I wonder if Darkstar told on them because he might have figured Arianne could marry Arys if they had success? Farfetched, but something to add to the list of possible motives.

Another note on Darkstar - Why is he noted as being absent? I assume other people needed to use the bathroom now and then but none got mentioned. And then there's his castle, High Hermitage. Do the 'queenmakers' just need it as a place to defend themselves from, or is there more significance to the place?

I feel bad for Myrcella, she seems against this plan, and it isn't even solely for her benefit. Arianne seems in this chapter, to be more enchanted at winning Dorne from Quentyn and her father, who she thinks are taking it from her.

I found the line about Doran as a young man being given to silence and sequences not necessarily surprising, but interesting to take note of. What was he so guarded about, back then?

Assorted Other Mentions:

[1] - an interesting metaphor, there.

[2] - hints at jealousy, it would seem.

[3] - Myrcella is perceptive. I also liked the mention of how she plays cyvasse, with dragons. Hmm.

[brashcandy]

Good review,

Yeah, the strategy Myrcella uses to beat Trystane at the game is intriguing- foreshadowing of Dany's conquest of Dorne? Or her defeat of Aegon who has elephants? There seemed to be lots of hints to Dany's and Aegon's storylines too overall. Her comment about the children she and Darkstar would have could also be a hint of her eventually falling for Aegon, but I don't see Martin taking this traditional route somehow.

I remember being thoroughly annoyed with Arianne in this chapter, especially given what happens to Myrcella at the end. I felt she was really reckless here, using a little girl to further her ambitions and revenge plots. Just no.

[Candor]

Good review,

Yeah, the strategy Myrcella uses to beat Trystane at the game is intriguing- foreshadowing of Dany's conquest of Dorne? Or her defeat of Aegon who has elephants? There seemed to be lots of hints to Dany's and Aegon's storylines too overall. Her comment about the children she and Darkstar would have could also be a hint of her eventually falling for Aegon, but I don't see Martin taking this traditional route somehow.

I remember being thoroughly annoyed with Arianne in this chapter, especially given what happens to Myrcella at the end. I felt she was really reckless here, using a little girl to further her ambitions and revenge plots. Just no.

I thought of Dany vs. Aegon with the cyvasse, definitely. Elephants? Dragons? Hello. Tehee, but those mountains did make me think of the mountains of Dorne, maybe that's where the showdown will go down. Interesting - the Tower of Joy is in the moutains of Dorne IIRC.

Definitely. So much so that perhaps these should go in a re-read for people looking for Targ storyline hints. I could definitely see Aegon/Arianne happening, whether it's advisable or not.

Arianne, I am disappoint. Poor Myrcella... :crying:

Oddly, I found myself weirdly sympathetic of Darkstar in this re-read. I actually expected the re-read to reinforce my dislike of him, but apparently not!

[jarl the climber]

Good review,

Yeah, the strategy Myrcella uses to beat Trystane at the game is intriguing- foreshadowing of Dany's conquest of Dorne? Or her defeat of Aegon who has elephants? There seemed to be lots of hints to Dany's and Aegon's storylines too overall. Her comment about the children she and Darkstar would have could also be a hint of her eventually falling for Aegon, but I don't see Martin taking this traditional route somehow.

I remember being thoroughly annoyed with Arianne in this chapter, especially given what happens to Myrcella at the end. I felt she was really reckless here, using a little girl to further her ambitions and revenge plots. Just no.

I was really annoyed with Ser Arys, he should have been protecting Myrcella. This the first time we really get to see Myrcella, she seems cautious and taciturn. Wonder how this will effect her and her feeling toward the Dornish if she should somhow survive the war. We have to wonder why Doran let this go ahead if he knew about it, it really seems like he is the one being reckless. Plenty of blame to go around.

The thought Arrianne has about her uncle also seemed a little odd to me, not sure why GM would put this in here, maybe it is way of showing that Arrianne has thing for men who are dangerous and handsome?

I'm not sure about the whole cyvasse reference, does it show that Trystane is unimaginative and will be a poor ruler if he should end up inheriting Dorne?

What is up with this Darkstar fellow? Is it the name? My pet theory is that Darkstar will surrender and be sent to the wall by Doran, Balon Swann might actually survive, I think Doran wants to find out what Stannis is up to.

[jarl the climber]

Another thing that is interesting is that Darkstar told Arys to surrender, albiet laughingly, Ser Drey disarmed immeadeatly and told Arys to throw down his weapon too right after Darkstar did. Darkstar did advocate killing Myrcella when he first met Arrianne but we never actually see him strike the blow, there is good reason to assume he did but all of Arriannes friends are banished after this, the only confirmation we get is from Doran, so we can't be 100% sure Darkstar even did this. Myrcella will lay the blame on Darkstar because that is what Arriane tells her to say if she wants to go home, or wants to live.

[Candor]

Another thing that is interesting is that Darkstar told Arys to surrender, albiet laughingly, Ser Drey disarmed immeadeatly and told Arys to throw down his weapon too right after Darkstar did. Darkstar did advocate killing Myrcella when he first met Arrianne but we never actually see him strike the blow, there is good reason to assume he did but all of Arriannes friends are banished after this, the only confirmation we get is from Doran, so we can't be 100% sure Darkstar even did this. Myrcella will lay the blame on Darkstar because that is what Arriane tells her to say if she wants to go home, or wants to live.

This is a great point, Jarl. Beside that, Arianne was so distraught she couldn't give us a clear view of what happened, so maybe that also says that we shouldn't assume the 'primary candidate' was the one who did it. I think there's more going on there with Darkstar on a politics and possibly personal note. We've been shown he's, for lack of a better word, moody, several times in this chapter.

[Candor]

ETA: Also, I was thinking about DS's reply, how he was sort of laughingly telling Ser Arys to surrender. Do we think that he knew Arys wouldn't surrender, and therefore get himself killed? Was he perhaps, counting on it?

[Bran Vras]

A few remarks:

Dorne joined the Seven Kingdoms a hundred years ago, precisely the time when Shandystone became dry. Coincidence?

The cyvasse strategy of Trystane (putting the elephants in the passes of the mountains, and letting himself being overwhelmed by the Dragon) reminds me of the military history lesson Stannis gave Jon in ADwD.

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway.”

“I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vain-glorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince’s Pass.”

I do not recall if Myrcella body double has been mentioned before this chapter. I do not think it is possible they have switched places. Arys would know. Moreover, Myrcella appears smart in this chapter, while the double is dumb. I wonder whether Rosamund will be given to Ser Balon for the interrogation.

[Candor]

A few remarks:

Dorne joined the Seven Kingdoms a hundred years ago, precisely the time when Shandystone became dry. Coincidence?

The cyvasse strategy of Trystane (putting the elephants in the passes of the mountains, and letting himself being overwhelmed by the Dragon) reminds me of the military history lesson Stannis gave Jon in ADwD.

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway.”

“I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vain-glorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince’s Pass.”

I do not recall if Myrcella body double has been mentioned before this chapter. I do not think it is possible they have switched places. Arys would know. Moreover, Myrcella appears smart in this chapter, while the double is dumb. I wonder whether Rosamund will be given to Ser Balon for the interrogation.

A very good catch on the well and Dorne joining the realm!

The young Dragon is interesting, I had forgotten about that lesson. However it does also bring to mind how Robb got around Golden Tooth by using a path such as that...

That would be good idea, but I think Myrcella could be persuaded to go along with what the Dornish want. She seems to have good intuiton and is careful "Until I know you, I must call you ser." She knows the war Arianne and co were proposing was dangerous. I think she'd understand the danger of feeding the wrong story to Ser Balon.