Curious - battle of the Green Fork in book 1

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

Maybe fighting when and where Roose did wasn't optimal, but he had to fight at some point once he left The Twins. As has been said, he had only a small mounted contingent, and this primarily infantry army couldn't outrun or outmaneuver Lord Lannister for long. The strategy of denying combat would have been great if he'd had enough horses.

[JamesTruwood]

Even in the books, this move does not make a lot of sense. Not the splitting of the troops, but the battle itself. To me, it looks like a very risky and reckless move, and a glaring mistake overall. If comparing it to real military history, the best analogy I can think of would be Colonel Ichiki's disastrous "surprise attack" on Guadalcanal.

What did the northerners hope to achieve? If the goal was simply to stop/delay Tywin, they could have simply refused combat and pulled back as far as the Twins, were they had a better defensive position. If Tywin retreated south, they could shadow his army and wait for an occasion to attack him when he was more vulnerable (like for example at the fords of the Trident).

As it was, the battle weakened the northern army and left it combat unworthy for enough time to allow Tywin to pull back in good order and entrench himself in Harrenhall.

So my question is: Who authorised the attack?

Was it Robb? He may be young and inexperienced, but he is allso shown to be a brilliant strategist. Such a mistake would be very uncharacteristic. He allso choose a cautious commander for this covering force (Roose Bolton) so he probably expected him to avoid combat.

Was it Roose himself? I don't think so. He really is very shrewd and cautious, and at this point there is no reason to doubt that he is still loyal to Robb, so he would not weaken his army on purpose.

The best theory I can come up with is that the ideea of the attack came from the northern subcommanders (Glover, Hornwood, etc.) who wanted to get some action and "cover themselves in glory" and that Bolton gave in and let them go ahead with the attack so they would get themselves killed/captured and stop bothering him.

Any thoughts?

Im going to guess Roose authorized it, to attempt to bloody Tywin. At this time Ned was alive, and as pointed out if Tywin gets to Harrenhal or Kings Landing life becomes harder. I don't think Roose was aiming to win, just bloody Tywin and keep him busy.

[Frey Pie]

Its fairly obvious Roose didnt give fiddle about the battle. He had around 16000 men with him. Hes given the command because hes cautious and calm-he wont make mistakes in other words. He knows Tywin wont be caught unaware, hes not stupid, hes smart and cunning. Yet he proceeds to carry out a battle that had no tactical sense whatsoever. Roose knew this and fixed the battle

[Batman]

12,000 at Moat Cailin + 4,000 Freys, the figures are rough, but only 2,000ish of that would be cavalry and that leaves Bolton with near enough to 16,000 men.

Plus the men that Manderly sent with Cat.

[JamesTruwood]

Plus the men that Manderly sent with Cat.

12 000 at Winterfell, 18 000 at Moat Cailin. 4000 Freys. Robb left 400 men at the Twins, same with Walder Frey. so theres 400 gone from the Frey and Northern Count. Robb left a force at Moat Cailin with Helman Tallhart, and i like to think it was 200 just to make it a round 1000 buy garrisoning these areas. So that leaves 1000 Frey Horse and 3600 Frey Infantry (See SOS for details, a Catelyn chapter stating robb lost 1000 frey knights and near 3000 frey foots for the westerlings).

The Northern force had 5000 Mounted men travel to Riverrun, picking up another 1000 along the way (see GOT). Robb brought 9/10s of his calvary. Thereforce Roose has 500 horse and 15, 500 infantry. This is my own estiamtes, doing painstaking math, but should be pretty accurate. Not that 500 Calvary would of helped Roose.

Side note - What if Roose fought the battle as a disguise to kill off Lord Hornwood, and had planned to have Ramsay marry the Lady Hornwood? Weird and not likely hey what the hell.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Side note - What if Roose fought the battle as a disguise to kill off Lord Hornwood, and had planned to have Ramsay marry the Lady Hornwood? Weird and not likely hey what the hell.

See, that's the kind of opportunity Roose would take advantage of - win or lose, those dying would not be of his own House, and the other Houses would be weakened. But people jump from this to conclude that he was therefore working against Robb the whole time, when he actually had to fight Tywin sooner or later (as other posters have demonstrated). He can't outrun Tywin, and if he camps out somewhere and waits for Tywin to attack, Tywin's scouts may report that all the cavalry is missing

[Summer is Ending]

See, that's the kind of opportunity Roose would take advantage of - win or lose, those dying would not be of his own House, and the other Houses would be weakened. But people jump from this to conclude that he was therefore working against Robb the whole time, when he actually had to fight Tywin sooner or later (as other posters have demonstrated). He can't outrun Tywin, and if he camps out somewhere and waits for Tywin to attack, Tywin's scouts may report that all the cavalry is missing

He finds a defensive position to take away the advantage of Tywin's cavalry and the scouts maybe finally notice several thousand cavalry are missing that they've mysteriously missed so far but still have no idea where they are.

Roose gives every advantage to Tywin on the battlefield and in a matter of hours Tywin has hard proof from prisoners taken that not only is Robb missing but also now knows exactly where he has gone.

What exactly has Roose accomplished with the second scenario except weakening the northern army and in an unforseeable tragic turn of events caused the unfortunate deaths of two lords that are strong Stark supporters bordering his own lands?

A nitpicker will point it out that only Hornwood died in battle while Lord Cerwyn died later of his wounds.

[Ramsay Gimp]

He finds a defensive position to take away the advantage of Tywin's cavalry and the scouts maybe finally notice several thousand cavalry are missing that they've mysteriously missed so far but still have no idea where they are.

Roose gives every advantage to Tywin on the battlefield and in a matter of hours Tywin has hard proof from prisoners taken that not only is Robb missing but also now knows exactly where he has gone.

What exactly has Roose accomplished with the second scenario except weakening the northern army and in an unforseeable tragic turn of events caused the unfortunate deaths of two lords that are strong Stark supporters bordering his own lands?

Don't know what to say about the scouts. Are you saying Roose should have planned on them not noticing the obvious, as actually happened for narrative purposes?

He also fails to fall (or pretend to fall) for Tywin's trap involving the Left, which could have resulted in an utter destruction of the army (with Roose fleeing on horseback) if that was what Roose was setting out to do. It's about stalling. Neither Robb nor Cat ever complain about it (as opposed to Duskendale), and Roose chooses to take Harrenhall as cheaply as possible rather than expend more Northmen.

As for the bolded part, I already acknowledge that Roose cares not one whit for the other lords and will take advantage of their weakness. Does not mean he is trying his best to lose or hurt the Starks at this point

[Summer is Ending]

He also fails to fall (or pretend to fall) for Tywin's trap involving the Left, which could have resulted in an utter destruction of the army (with Roose fleeing on horseback) if that was what Roose was setting out to do. It's about stalling. Neither Robb nor Cat ever complain about it (as opposed to Duskendale), and Roose chooses to take Harrenhall as cheaply as possible rather than expend more Northmen.

As for the bolded part, I already acknowledge that Roose cares not one whit for the other lords and will take advantage of their weakness. Does not mean he is trying his best to lose or hurt the Starks at this point

The wildlings don't collapse. It's a failure of success on Tywin's part rather than a brilliant retreat by Roose.

If it's about stalling then that is accomplished just as well without marching right into Tywin's wheelhouse.

The boy lord and Cat? Why do people always bring them up as some kind of proof? They're dead because they're oblivious to everything going on and went on blindly trusting Roose into he literally had to stick his sword in Robb's back to prove otherwise.

Yes, being careless of the northern army and putting them in a situation they can't win is exactly what betrayal is. The fact that Roose did it to strengthen his own position doesn't somehow make that not a traitorous act. That's an odd position.