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julandro

Possible changes and new scenes added for the second season.

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So any time you push character back a season, its dangerous because there will always be more to add.

Yes, I think you are right. That's why I'm worried about the Reeds, they could be cut or at least merged in one role to reduce the number of new characters. But I still think they wouldn't cut Ramsay from the whole series. I mean, he's one of the most hated antagonists of all the books! Besides, we must remember that it's almost certain that they will split book three in two seasons, so that would reduce the number of new characters for the next season. For instance, maybe they won't need to introduce Oberyn, Ellaria or Daario in season 3, they could introduce them in season 4 (if I'm not wrong about the timelines). And they certainly must introduce the Tullys for the RW, probably season 3.

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You know the whole problem with the whole "they will be introduced later attitude" is that there are so many characters in this series that each season its going to stock pile.

To be honest, I don't think that means a whole lot. If the character is important enough, s/he will be introduced eventually. If they aren't important, we wouldn't see them. In S1, we didn't see Roose Bolton because he didn't do a whole lot but in S2 here he is. While Ramsay has a notable enough role in S2 its only in aDwD that he becomes really important, so he certainly has a reasonably chance of appearing there, if we get that far. They could ignore him in that later season but i'm thinking its unlikely right now.

Most of the other characters you mention can be safely ignored. Mance will feature. Oberyn and presumably Edmure will also but everyone else? I know people will be full of angst and bemoan the loss of the greatest brown plum in modern literature but people like Brown Ben Plumm don't have to feature. They are certainly less important than Ramsay in aDwD.

And aSoS has less VIPs to introduce than aCoK. Its in book 4 that castings will have to ramp up again.

I think they are saving Ramsay for a big surprise, maybe for like the very end of the season. Ramsay is a HUGE villain and extremely important to Theon's storyline. I don't understand cutting Riverrun, though. Wasn't that like a huge victory for Robb? If they are going to add more Robb, which I am sure they are, wouldn't that be important to show how well he was doing in battle?

Well. The only way they will show Ramsay in S2 is if we see a Bolton general (with his face covered) sack Winterfell at the end of the season. We can assume that is Ramsay if we like. Otherwise, HBO hasn't played stunts with us in the past. They can hide plot-points but they aren't going to hide castings. Way too likely that it would get revealed (unless they are effectively extras).

They aren't showing Riverrun because it introduces a lot more characters and a new location to film in. Its as easy to show some of Robb's other battles that took place in the countryside. Thus cheaper.

As for the Reeds. They are a puzzle. You can skip them in Winterfell but once Bran leaves Winterfell, there is a problem to solve if they aren't there. So I can't rule them out yet. We might get hints about what D&D plan after S2 is shown. :)

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To be honest, I don't think that means a whole lot. If the character is important enough, s/he will be introduced eventually. If they aren't important, we wouldn't see them. In S1, we didn't see Roose Bolton because he didn't do a whole lot but in S2 here he is. While Ramsay has a notable enough role in S2 its only in aDwD that he becomes really important, so he certainly has a reasonably chance of appearing there, if we get that far. They could ignore him in that later season but i'm thinking its unlikely right now.

Sorry but i think sacking Winterfell and killing all the northmen and ironmen a like is pretty damn important. I understand the difficulty of having a show with such a cast of characters, but this seen not only means Robb is the King who lost the North, but it establishes the Boltons/Dreadfort as the biggest villains. Like I said I understand budget issues, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Why cast Black Lorren? A guy who's going to die anyway, when you could just have Theon's captain be extras. Having Ramsay is way more important than him.

The point of this forum is to debate and share opinions. I love the books so obviously I'm going to be sad when one of the biggest villains and plot twists gets taken out.

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Sorry but i think sacking Winterfell and killing all the northmen and ironmen a like is pretty damn important. I understand the difficulty of having a show with such a cast of characters, but this seen not only means Robb is the King who lost the North, but it establishes the Boltons/Dreadfort as the biggest villains. Like I said I understand budget issues, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Why cast Black Lorren? A guy who's going to die anyway, when you could just have Theon's captain be extras. Having Ramsay is way more important than him.

I'm only speculating, but I think the reason why Ramsay is probably not in season 2 is because he's a pretty major character who will not appear until ADWD after ACOK. So say they cast an actor for him; with ASOS being split into two seasons likely, Ramsay isn't going show up again for three years. In that time, whatever actor they hired might not be available because he'll have found another show or movie in the meantime. Yeah, it sucks that there's probably no Ramsay in season 2, but I think it's part of the difficulties of adapting such an enormous work to television. Also, Black Lorren has nothing to do with Ramsay. It's not like they had a choice of casting Black Lorren or Ramsay and chose Black Lorren. He's just there so Theon can interact with an ironborn member during the sack of Winterfell. It's an incredibly minor role; it's not like Black Lorren is going to have his own scenes.

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I'm only speculating, but I think the reason why Ramsay is probably not in season 2 is because he's a pretty major character who will not appear until ADWD after ACOK. So say they cast an actor for him; with ASOS being split into two seasons likely, Ramsay isn't going show up again for three years. In that time, whatever actor they hired might not be available because he'll have found another show or movie in the meantime. Yeah, it sucks that there's probably no Ramsay in season 2, but I think it's part of the difficulties of adapting such an enormous work to television. Also, Black Lorren has nothing to do with Ramsay. It's not like they had a choice of casting Black Lorren or Ramsay and chose Black Lorren. He's just there so Theon can interact with an ironborn member during the sack of Winterfell. It's an incredibly minor role; it's not like Black Lorren is going to have his own scenes.

Ramsay may not show up again for 3 years, but theon won't either for that matter.

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Sorry but i think sacking Winterfell and killing all the northmen and ironmen a like is pretty damn important.

But that will happen with or without Ramsay. Roose is in the show, so the Boltons will be lined up as major villians even if Ramsay himself doen't take Winterfell.

And as Arrogant Bastard said, they cast Black Lorren because Theon has to talk to somebody between leaving the Iron Isles and taking Winterfell. :)

I think they didn't introduce Reek because its a rather complicated plot and they have so much else to cover. They can easily introduce Ramsay when Theon gets to the Dreadford (if he doesn't lead the Bolton army). And yes, Theon may not appear in S3 but the fall of Winterfell has to happen, so they need Theon in S2 (and he gave Robb somebody to talk to in S1). OTOH, they don't need Ramsay for Winterfell to fall.

The point of this forum is to debate and share opinions. I love the books so obviously I'm going to be sad when one of the biggest villains and plot twists gets taken out.

Ok. But I wasn't stopping you from sharing opinions. I'm just pointing out what I see as flaws in your logic.

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OTOH, they don't need Ramsay for Winterfell to fall.

Sort of missed opportunity though. If Roose isn't going to be at Harrenhal they should've just left him out this season and had Ramsay at Winterfell instead.

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If Roose isn't going to be at Harrenhal they should've just left him out this season and had Ramsay at Winterfell instead.

And let Roose randomly appear in S3 as an important Northern general? Meet Jaime and join in the RW? That's not going to work. Ramsay can be safely explained away as not appearing in S1 and S2. Roose would be really peculiar.

Nobody actually believes that Ramsay is more important than Roose right?

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I really hope they end season 2 with the prologue of ASOS. The three horn blasts. Man, what a cliffhanger that would be...

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I suspect that Roose would replace some of the Ramsay influence. Not combining the characters as such, but letting the audience know that the Boltons are the evil turncloaks mucking up the north for both the Starks and the Ironmen. In later days, Roose could actually be the one torturing Theon, when he returns for the North. I know you Ramsay/Reek fans won't be happy, but being realistic, the show does have a lot of characters.

I had hoped we'd get some Thoros, Beric & BWB shots every now and then in S2, just so the audience don't go "whoa, whose this joker?" in S3. But that doesn't seem likely.

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I reckon that the Tullys will be cut, with a reference to Edmure and the Blackfish holding Riverrun as it is under siege (Cat will be with Robb's army). Robb will decide to hold his wedding to Jeyne Westerling at the Twins instead, hence the Red Wedding, where Jeyne is carried off by Frey men.

I think that the sack of Winterfell will be moved to S3 to coincide with the Red Wedding. Ramsay will be introduced by having him meet with Theon on behalf of his father, before betraying the Ironmen and razing the castle.

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Robb will decide to hold his wedding to Jeyne Westerling at the Twins instead, hence the Red Wedding, where Jeyne is carried off by Frey men.

If Robb held his wedding in the Twins, he'd deserve to die. :P So that's not going to happen. Your idea that Riverrun may still be under siege in S2 is more plausible though. Robb may only raise the siege in S3 and events can then move consistently forward with aSoS.

In later days, Roose could actually be the one torturing Theon, when he returns for the North.

Roose should still be in the south though. I can't see him not appearing at the RW. There is a lot of characters but I can see definitely see Ramsay been one of the additions if we get to aDwD. Roose will need somebody to interact with when he gets back North.

I had hoped we'd get some Thoros, Beric & BWB shots every now and then in S2, just so the audience don't go "whoa, whose this joker?" in S3. But that doesn't seem likely.

They did introduce Thoros in S1, so I wouldn't be surprised if they threw in a reference to the BwB in S2. We have to set the stage for the return of Cat.

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Roose should still be in the south though. I can't see him not appearing at the RW. There is a lot of characters but I can see definitely see Ramsay been one of the additions if we get to aDwD. Roose will need somebody to interact with when he gets back North.

Yeah, I meant after the RW. Theon gets dragged to the dreadfort after Winterfell's taken by Bolton men, and when Roose returns as Warden of the North after Robb's defeat, he's the one who flays Theon, etc.That's the only way round cutting Ramsay I can see.

I'm also not at all surprised they cut the Reeds, but I'm interested as to what this means for Bran & Rickon - will they both go North with Osha, Hodor, Shaggydog and Summer?

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I suspect that Roose would replace some of the Ramsay influence. Not combining the characters as such, but letting the audience know that the Boltons are the evil turncloaks mucking up the north for both the Starks and the Ironmen. In later days, Roose could actually be the one torturing Theon, when he returns for the North. I know you Ramsay/Reek fans won't be happy, but being realistic, the show does have a lot of characters.

I had hoped we'd get some Thoros, Beric & BWB shots every now and then in S2, just so the audience don't go "whoa, whose this joker?" in S3. But that doesn't seem likely.

No, that would be crap and I would stop watching the show . You can't alienate the book readers

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