Did Jon deserve it?

[The Swaggering Bravo]

This brings up the question of how long Marsh and his men had been planning to kill Jon. Did they decide to do it off the cuff while listening to his speech, or had they been planning it for a while and only acted then because the opportunity was there?

Most definitely the second one, unless they were planning on waiting for that kind of opportunity to present itself. Bowen had political machinations in mind as well, as can be testified by his reluctance to do anything that the Lannisters would frown upon, as if the Wall is subject to whomever sits the Iron Throne. This is why he left the hall. I think he left even before Jon proposed to march on Winterfell, because he wanted to be on the winning side, and he thought he could save himself in the only way possible: Appease the Iron Throne by killing Jon, who had helped Stannis. With Stannis dead, he became desperate.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I think it was planned and that is what Mel saw in her fires.

Seeing it in her fires doesn't make it planned. I think Red Priests can see actions made before the people they see even know what it is that they will do.

Screw their prophetic visions anyway, if the characters put more faith in their direwolf's instincts Bran wouldn't be crippled, Robb, and potentially Jon wouldn't be dead.

[Natalia Borgia]

Seeing it in her fires doesn't make it planned. I think Red Priests can see actions made before the people they see even know what it is that they will do.

Screw their prophetic visions anyway, if the characters put more faith in their direwolf's instincts Bran wouldn't be crippled, Robb, and potentially Jon wouldn't be dead.

True. The Starks can be thickheaded.

[master]

True. The Starks can be thickheaded

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the problem with the starks is they trust people too easily [robb and theon, robb and the freys, jon ntrusting the watch would do what he said, ned and half olf kings landing, sansa and ser dontos, etc.

jon should never have accepoted the post of lord commander, he's too inexperienced.

[Revan Baratheon]

Double

[Revan Baratheon]

That was not cold-blooded murder. It was killing to save people. Big damn difference.

Actually Jaime just wanted to save his own skin,like his dad he needed to prove he was loyal to Robert's cause,he was too much of a coward to die fighting for Aerys i guess.That burning of KL is just an excuse,he wouldve killed Aerys all the same,even if aerys had a heart of gold..

[CC-Kingmaker]

he was definitely overstepping his bounds, and fals into the same effect as lex luthor sitting idly by as superman tries to bring earth under his shepherding. there is certainly an angle that bowen marsh could logically find to defend his actions. jon had to know that too much change is hard to stomach, the giants and wildlings serving on the wall was difficult, and the rest of his appointments as well. But going south of the wall to challenge ramsay, who otherwise would hav marched an army on the wall in my opinion was not the right time.

the wildlings basically are becoming a slight non-threat as the others become a more real threat... meaning monsters like the boltosn simply disregarding everything for personal gain are truly at fault. those who would refuse to help the watch and brutally kill those who sought to save it (stannis), are the enemy as well. nothing is fair in war, but jon never asked anyone to follow him to winterfell.

if bowen marsh broke into rebellion after jon returned, that would be one thing, he simply didn't let it happen, leaving the readers thinking the final straw was the leaving for the personal matter. But, where I do not think the acts of brutus, (stabbing superiors) are ever acceptable, jon certainly didn't make it easier extremely easy for the southron watchmen

[The Swaggering Bravo]

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the problem with the starks is they trust people too easily [robb and theon, robb and the freys, jon ntrusting the watch would do what he said, ned and half olf kings landing, sansa and ser dontos, etc.

jon should never have accepoted the post of lord commander, he's too inexperienced.

I thought that Jon was different, probably because he isn't technically a Stark, but I think he is very fit to lead.

[lostinwesteros]

In spite of what I think has been a truly heroic job so far, trying to fulfill the role of Lord Commander under increasingly dangerous conditions with little to no perceptive support (no Maester Aemon to provide insight, etc.), I think we see Jon in this last ADwD chapter as starting to 'burn out'. He didn't burn the two dead guys in the frozen cells!!! He's reacting rather than acting -- his quick [knee-jerk?] decision to fly off to face Bolton, just as he reacted when he almost left the NW before when he wanted to go help Robb. He is a rescuer, for sure. And negotiating the NW, Stannis/men, Mel, now the empty-headed Queen, Hardhome, the wildlings -- "gods be good", could there be a more disparate or contentious group?

[flame7926]

Wouldnt going to Winterfell be breaking his oath?

[lostinwesteros]

I'd thought so - some earlier postings thought not necessarily. What I do think is that it'd be more of a personal mission than one necessary for the NW/wall safety.

[lostinwesteros]

Of earlier posts, some said yes, some said no (about going to Winterfell breaking his oath). It was pointed out that deserting the NW is different from just going to 'take care of' Bolton, though it definitely seems a personal mission to me. Veiled threat to NW?

Did anyone else wonder if all Bolton said was true? The part I wondered about was whether Stannis and all his host were killed. If so, his 'bride' and Reek/Theon must have escaped. What about the lender from Bravos? Asha? We knew that Mance was left inside Winterfell playing and some of the 6 women were killed as Theon and 'Arya' escaped...could that have been all and Bolton just made up the rest?

[Val the Wildling Princess]

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jon should never have accepoted the post of lord commander, he's too inexperienced.

You think so? I actually think he was doing a pretty good job as LC, the Watch just wasn't ready for those changes but in my opinion he was doing it right. Not only he was getting more men to defend the Wall but removing potential enemies from beyond the Wall, getting coin for the Watch from the Iron bank...As I said in another thread, no, I don't think he deserved it. The only cuestionable decision was his response to Ramsay's letter. From my point of view, he was just answering a direct threat to himself and the Watch and he never asked any of his sworn brothers to go with him, only wildlings were gonna go with him to Winterfell. For sure, the Watch shouldn't get involved in the realm's business but what do you do when the realm forces you to get involved? Wait for psycho Bolton to come and kill you and your men? I can understand that Bowen et al were not ready for all the changes Jon introduced to the Watch but killing your LC the way they did sure was not much different from desertion, that's not the way things are done. He wants to leave? Let him go, and when he comes back judge him for desertion if you want. Anyway, I still thinking that they were planning to get rid of Jon almost from the very beginning of ADWD, Jon's decision to march south, just forced them to make it quick and dirty.

[David Selig]

Of course jon deserved it. he abandoned his post to go south on his private business and he wanted to send the Watch on the doomed suicide mission to Hardhome. He was about to break his oath and doom the Watch at the same time.

What's much worse, he bored me to tears for 5 books, that's the worst crime a fictional character can commit, and deserved death for that. :cool4:

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't think Jon deserved to die, but locking Ghost up despite Mel's warning was incredibly stupid.

Actually Jaime just wanted to save his own skin,like his dad he needed to prove he was loyal to Robert's cause,he was too much of a coward to die fighting for Aerys i guess.That burning of KL is just an excuse,he wouldve killed Aerys all the same,even if aerys had a heart of gold..

I sort of agree. Aerys didn't need to be murdered; Jaime could have just killed each pyromancer who Aerys sent for. But I don't think Jaime murdered Aerys just to prove he was loyal to Robert, seeing as he tried to escape from the throne room after killing him. But Jaime killing Aerys doesn't reflect well on him, seeing as it meant he was too busy to actually protect Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.

(I'm sure I'll get accused of being a diehard Targ supporter for this post, despite preferring Jaime to 99% of House Targaryen.)

[The Drunkard]

No, I don't think Jon deserved it. The role of the NW is to protect the realms of man, the free folk are men, the enemy is the Others. While going south to Winterfell may have been 'breaking' his vows, he didn't really have any other alternatives. If he didn't go, not only would the NW be shamed, Bolton would eventually come after him to finally get rid of all the Starks.

I think Jon did the best he could under the circumstances, and now they're all going to pay for betraying him.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

:agree:

I don't think Jon deserved it. Yes you could argue he was going to break his vows, but it was for the greater good of the watch.

Also I don't think this was a major motive of Bowen and the rest. I think their concerns had more to do with the Wildling (their former enemies) alliance because they were stuck in the past and couldn't see that both Bolton and the Others now pose the greater threat.

In that respect Jon didn't deserve it

[Helyn Snow]

No, I definitely think Jon did not deserve it. The guy was pretty much between a rock and a hard place trying to protect the wall from the others, and he was not going please everyone with the decisions he had to make. If Bowen Marsh was in his shoes, would he have done any better? I think not; yes he would have had the support of the realm and had enough food to survive the winter, but would they have truly survived with the dwindled numbers of the NW against the number of potential wightified wildlings? No.

That's the bitter pill to swallow for Marsh, siding with the wildlings, but the guy's so narrow minded he doesn't see Jon's point of view in this - they had no other choice. As previously mentioned in other posts, one of Jon's main mistakes was sending all his allies away and leaving a bunch of stuck in their ways NW men, that were never going to be won over.

I agree that stabbing Jon was not a spur of the moment decision and must have been discussed not long after Janos Slynt got the chop. I think in Marshs' defense though (indicative of the tears in his eyes when he stabbed Jon), they weren't just waiting for the right time to do it, it was wore like, 'we'll go along with the LC unless he does X'. Unfortunately, Jon's reaction to the bastard letter proved to be X - the straw that broke the camel's back for them.

[lostinwesteros]

Definitely did not deserve it. Has been the only one on the Wall thinking like a true leader, in my opinion. I see Bowen (et. al.) acting out of fear, jealousy, and short sightedness, even though he has tears his eyes when he stabs Jon. Good example of what comes from not listening to Jon? Repercussions of trying to coerce Val to marry, also part of the 'unraveling' seen at same time Jon is being stabbed. Jon not perfect, or 'all wise', and making some crucial mistakes (not burning the two dead guys), but doing a pretty good job of rising to the occasion, In think -- and, remember, he didn't want the position of LC to start with.

[HyacinthGirl]

Stimulating topic.

In ASOS, Jeor Mormont has a conversation with Sam, in which he says something along the lines of: "The NW has forgotten its true enemy, Wildlings are just other men." Some men of the NW found it easier to pardon those who they believed they were defending the realm from than others. Bowen Marsh was clearly one of the latter.

Jon did not deserve to be stabbed. He was doing the right thing, in general.

-He gave the gift to the wildlings, which is completely fine because NOBODY was living in it due to fear of the wildlings.

-He was trying to deprive the others of potential wights, which would be soldiers in the upcoming war.

-He was ending years of conflict between the people of the realm and the wildlings, who were not the true enemy.

-He was trying to strengthen the watch against the bigger bad.

-Lastly, deciding to march against Ramsay Bolton was not only to save his 'sister', but protecting Castle Black, which would not have survived an attack from the Bastard of Bolton's army coming from the South. It has basically no defences from the south.

He SHOULD have:

-explained all of his decisions better to the watch. All of the watch. Had a big assembly, hear everyone's views on the subject, listened to suggestions, instead of just...doing it. Not many/none of the watch were smart enough to guess/understand.

-Not made pardoning wildlings universal. The Weeper, for instance. Rattleshirt. Well known raiders and killers should have been trialled or something.

-Jon was elected, largely, because he was ONE of the Brothers: had proved himself as a good leader, friend, honourable man. He should have kept up this relationship with his men, instead of marching around, only talking to people to tell them off, assuming Supreme Leadership, and becoming the 'Lord Snow' that Allister Thorne mocked him for being.

So, I'm not a Jon fangirl who thinks that everything he does is always right, always, because he'ssodreamyandbrave blah blah blah. He's flawed, just like all the characters in ASOIAF. But he did not deserve to be turned on and killed because he was essentially doing the right thing (although going slightly the wrong way about it.)