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Little Finger, I can't believe there are people who don't like little finger


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I wish that I was suprised that LF turned out so cool, but alas i saw HBO before reading the books, so when i saw the actor, I dont know his name but he played the shit out of The Wire's Thomas Carcetti, the biggest political snake you can imagine. So from the start I knew he would be cool, of course the last 2 chapters of ASOS blew my mind

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People keep talking about LF flying out of the Moon Door, but won't we have to wait several years for that to happen, since the Eyrie household has descended to the Gates of the Moon for winter?

I love LF. He's my favourite character. I enjoyed his interactions with Ned, and I enjoyed realising the extent of his plotting. I would love for him and Varys to work together to acheive their goals, personally, but I don't see that happening. He's an absolutely reprehensible character, of course, but hey, an awful lot of popular characters are pretty reprehensible- Jaime, Sandor, Cersei, etc.- Littlefinger's just better at it :P

As far as Varys goes, I'm not sure whether I believe entirely in his "For the realm" agenda- whilst it might indeed be his goal to get a good king on the throne, his methods would have left thousands dead all the same.

Trying to be balanced for the moment: I can totally understand why people don't like Littlefinger. He is totally, unapologetically out for himself - no speeches about how he wants to do what's right for the kingdom, he is out for him. He's started a war, mostly to benefit himself. Morally, he's not winning many points. Not to mention, his obsession with Cat has resulted in the bizarre "You should have been my daughter, but at the same time, you're like the girl I was in love with V. 2!" thing he's got going on with Sansa, which is kind of creepy. Though, TBH, after Sandor and Tyrion, I was kind of expected every Sansa relationship in the books to have overtones of creepy.

But at the same time: this is a man who has risen from the very lowest of lords to a member of the King's Council, to a High Lord in his own right, purely through using his brain to make himself useful, and by manipulating the right people. He has made himself money through businesses and investments. In a world where people tend to rise either through skill at arms, or through hereditary titles, here is someone who doesn't have either of these, who only uses his brain- and he's despised for it. The guy sets some powerful houses against each other. He has the ruler of the Eyrie and the apparent heir to the North under his control. He has control over one of the few kingdoms untouched by the war that he helped to start. He has spies still in the court. He's very capable.

I don't know, there's just something satisfying about seeing him come out on top, and if he is destined for a huge fall, then I really hope he gets some more moments of awesome- and more importantly, a little recognition about how he pretty much shafted everyone- first.

No, he is not the kind of badass that charges into a fight waving a sword. But damn if he isn't one of the biggest badasses in the series, IMO :P

Littlefinger is certainly among the most interesting characters though not my favorite, but the story would lose so much flavor without him.

And he has not always been the Littlefinger so many love to hate. He was Petyr, a sweet boy, romantic, impressionable and incredibly brave. Remember when he fought for Catelyn against the so much older and stronger Brandon, even when Cat refused to give him her favor, he had so much courage. He definitely did not deserve what the Tullys did to him.

Baelish is an awesome villain, I do not see why he gets so much more hatred than the Boltons or the Greyjoy madmen. His cunning keeps the story running.

The "beauty and beast" version with Sansa and LF is so much more delicious because LF is no beast with a pure soul but a charming gentleman with a twisted soul. And you never know if the beauty will not finally fall for that kind of inverted beast and become his lover, finally seduced and not forced. Creepy as it might be but it may happen.

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first of all, I'm not counting the Ramsey shit that's on Roose, Ramsey and Tywin...mostly Roose. That's not anymore Little Finger's fault than it is Jamie's fault that Tyrion ends up in slavery.

Arya almost gets burned to death, and tortured and kidnapped lord only knows how many times. Sansa gets basically exactly what Jeynes gets except Tyrion is too nice actually sleep with her. Bran gets thrown out a windows and tracked throw a frozen wasted land where Wytes almost kill him. They probably made soup out of Rickon on Skagos. (j/k i'm sure he's gonna grow up to be totally normal)

Arya was never that sad, just the news of her moms dead, but everything else is ok. Brans a tree, whatever, Rickon i cant see normal. And Sansa got such a bad life. but seriously dude, she gets fucked by dogs. (but so does Reek, who is a much more sad charcter, he only did what his father told him to and Jeyne called my girl horse face (1/2 a joke, take it how you want to)
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I would be kind of disappointed if Sansa outsmarted Littlefinger after he trained her, it strikes me as a bit silly. The guy is a pretty big deal, always comes on top, keeps his hands clean, we have Tyrion (who's presented as one of the smartest guys around) remark how complicated his finances are... having him be intellectually beaten by a thirteen years old after a brief period of learning would be kind of like Pyp beating Khal Drogo in a 1 on 1 fight after a Rocky training montage: cool, for sure, but not much in line with the rest of the series.

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first of all, I'm not counting the Ramsey shit that's on Roose, Ramsey and Tywin...mostly Roose. That's not anymore Little Finger's fault than it is Jamie's fault that Tyrion ends up in slavery.

Arya almost gets burned to death, and tortured and kidnapped lord only knows how many times. Sansa gets basically exactly what Jeynes gets except Tyrion is too nice actually sleep with her. Bran gets thrown out a windows and tracked throw a frozen wasted land where Wytes almost kill him. They probably made soup out of Rickon on Skagos. (j/k i'm sure he's gonna grow up to be totally normal)

Everyone has suffered, just because other characters have gone through other things doesn't mean Jeyne was lucky. She has been beaten and raped several times while she was in the brothel, LF didn't take her to the brothel to hide and protect her, if he wanted to protect her he wouldn't have "educated" her. And he did it just a few days after her father died.

It was LF who told Tywin he had found Arya after Sansa left KL, so he is responsible for Jeyne becoming Ramsay's wife, although he is not responsible of Ramsay being Ramsay

And if you are talking about how much other characters that have not been in contact with LF has suffered through all the books, then other people can talk about how much Jeyne has suffered too, even when she was not with LF.

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I would be kind of disappointed if Sansa outsmarted Littlefinger after he trained her, it strikes me as a bit silly. The guy is a pretty big deal, always comes on top, keeps his hands clean, we have Tyrion (who's presented as one of the smartest guys around) remark how complicated his finances are... having him be intellectually beaten by a thirteen years old after a brief period of learning would be kind of like Pyp beating Khal Drogo in a 1 on 1 fight after a Rocky training montage: cool, for sure, but not much in line with the rest of the series.

Perhaps, but the idea of an 11-year-old assassin is pretty silly, too. Besides, this isn't just any random 13-year-old; it's a 13-year-old for whom Littlefinger could very well have an enormous blind spot due to his issues with Catelyn, and that changes things.

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Many would think death was better than what Jeyne went through. Seriously, stop trying to make it sound like Littlefinger did her a favor by forcing her into prostitution. Because he did not.

well maybe is a separate topic but...

1) I'm not judging based on today's moral code, i'm judging based on a period where people get married at 13, are stolen for salt wives or by wildlings or are born into serfdom. A place where rape is a tactic of war, and the powerful make playthings of the powerless. And that's IF you're lucky enough to be born in Westeros. THAT IS THE WORLD OF A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Given said world as an intellectual conceit. I think Jeyne gets off easy for a person with little power. And has benefited greatly from the rewards of power prior to that.

2) I don't know that being forced into prostitution is in the bottom quartile of outcomes we see in the book, I think that largely depends on how nice little finger's brothels are. For example Satin seems to have a better life than most of the men sent to the wall.

.

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well maybe is a separate topic but...

1) I'm not judging based on today's moral code, i'm judging based on a period where people get married at 13, are stolen for salt wives or by wildlings or are born into serfdom. A place where rape is a tactic of war, and the powerful make playthings of the powerless. And that's IF you're lucky enough to be born in Westeros. THAT IS THE WORLD OF A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Given said world as an intellectual conceit. I think Jeyne gets off easy for a person with little power. And has benefited greatly from the rewards of power prior to that.

What benefits are those exactly ?

2) I don't know that being forced into prostitution is in the bottom quartile of outcomes we see in the book, I think that largely depends on how nice little finger's brothels are. For example Satin seems to have a better life than most of the men sent to the wall.

Being in Ramsay's hands is definitely among the worst outcomes people have had in the book (see : Theon). LF's brothels don't seem particularly nice since Jeyne has multiple whip marks on her back.

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Given said world as an intellectual conceit. I think Jeyne gets off easy for a person with little power.

:shocked:

Did I read the same books as you, or did I accidentally pick up a version that had been bowdlerized with torture porno?

Jeyne Poole is the sacrificial lamb of these books. My sincere hope is that her fate in Dance represents the absolute nadir of full frontal cruelty that we will see in these books.

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Perhaps, but the idea of an 11-year-old assassin is pretty silly, too. Besides, this isn't just any random 13-year-old; it's a 13-year-old for whom Littlefinger could very well have an enormous blind spot due to his issues with Catelyn, and that changes things.

Oh, I definitely agree about Arya, in fact, that's more than a little silly. And you're right about his blind spot regarding Sansa, which is why I wouldn't mind him getting, say, poisioned with the strangler, it's just the idea of her outmaneuvering him that would disappoint me.

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well maybe is a separate topic but...

1) I'm not judging based on today's moral code, i'm judging based on a period where people get married at 13, are stolen for salt wives or by wildlings or are born into serfdom. A place where rape is a tactic of war, and the powerful make playthings of the powerless. And that's IF you're lucky enough to be born in Westeros. THAT IS THE WORLD OF A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Given said world as an intellectual conceit. I think Jeyne gets off easy for a person with little power. And has benefited greatly from the rewards of power prior to that.

2) I don't know that being forced into prostitution is in the bottom quartile of outcomes we see in the book, I think that largely depends on how nice little finger's brothels are. For example Satin seems to have a better life than most of the men sent to the wall.

.

In other words, you are judging based on the moral code of some of the most vile abusers depicted in the book. Duely noted. :stillsick:

Moreover, in today's period of time, people still get married at 13, are abducted and forced into concubinage and sexual slavery, and are born into slavery. Rape is still a tactic of war and the powerful still make playthings of the powerless.

And your defense of such actions, including the idea that a little kid was done a favor by being forced into prostitution, is hardly an unknown attitude even today. Which is why these kinds of atrocities are sadly still far too common. Too many people see nothing wrong with abusing others, and justify it because abuses are widespread.

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Arya was never that sad, just the news of her moms dead, but everything else is ok. Brans a tree, whatever, Rickon i cant see normal. And Sansa got such a bad life. but seriously dude, she gets fucked by dogs. (but so does Reek, who is a much more sad charcter, he only did what his father told him to and Jeyne called my girl horse face (1/2 a joke, take it how you want to)

Little Finger didn't make Jeyne fuck a dog, that's all i'm saying. Anyone who falls into Ramsay's orbit is just SOL. Just like anyone who happens to fall into the path of the brave companions. That doesn't mean its Catelyn's fault Jamie get's his hand cut off.

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Little Finger didn't make Jeyne fuck a dog, that's all i'm saying. Anyone who falls into Ramsay's orbit is just SOL. Just like anyone who happens to fall into the path of the brave companions. That doesn't mean its Catelyn's fault Jamie get's his hand cut off.

So because Littlefinger didn't have Jeyne commit bestiality, he's an alright bloke? Alright then. :stillsick:

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What he would die for: nothing, he has no plans of dying up to now, and he is too smart to get himself in danger.

What he wants to achieve: everything.

To whom he is loyal: himself.

Thus, we know just about everything you ask for about him :).

But I wish there's more because I don't like someone who's loyal only to himself, cares only about himself and fights only for himself. No matter how 'cool' this character may seem. Because it's not cool, it's pathetic and pitiful. I'm not very judgmental towards fictional characters. There's a much bigger chance that I'll like the twisted, amoral characters in a story than the 'good' ones, simply because I find the former more interesting and thought-invoking than the always identical moral characters. But I really can't care about a character, moral in his actions or not, who only cares about himself. I can't even care what happens to him because I don't have the 'key' needed to identify and sympathize with the character. For example, I can sympathize with Cersei's desire to protect her children at any cost, with Qyburn's thirst for knowledge at any cost, with Tywin's quest to build up a family legacy, at any cost, that no man can laugh at. I can't, however, sympathize with Littlefinger's love for Littlefinger. The people I mentioned care, even in some twisted way, for something bigger than themselves. Littlefinger got dumped as a teenager by a girl who had no choice for some hot guy with more money and spent his whole life thence trying to compensate for it, causing a war that killed thousands innocent people and destroyed countless peaceful and happy lives. I appreciate ambition, but Littlefinger is an opportunist (in the despicable sense of the word) and a social climber of the worst possible sort and I see no reason at all to root for him.
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Everyone has suffered, just because other characters have gone through other things doesn't mean Jeyne was lucky. She has been beaten and raped several times while she was in the brothel, LF didn't take her to the brothel to hide and protect her, if he wanted to protect her he wouldn't have "educated" her. And he did it just a few days after her father died. It was LF who told Tywin he had found Arya after Sansa left KL, so he is responsible for Jeyne becoming Ramsay's wife, although he is not responsible of Ramsay being Ramsay And if you are talking about how much other characters that have not been in contact with LF has suffered through all the books, then other people can talk about how much Jeyne has suffered too, even when she was not with LF.

I don’t know I kind of think Little Finger did put her in a brothel to hide and protect her.;That’s where he put everything he wants to hide and protect. Now he could have bought her a house in Bravos and told Cersei and Tywin she escaped. But why should he do that for her, beside the fact it would be the decent thing to do? This is a society where brothels are common and there’s no reason for him to think he’s doing anything particularly horrible to Jeyne.

Later Tywin wants to pass her off as Arya and Little Finger knows she'll be betrothed to some lordling but there’s no reason for Little Finger to suspect the likes of Ramsay Bolton await her.

I don’t know what’s with you prancing southron jackanapes. To quote The Wull:

“Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.” Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. “Do you want to die, Wull?” That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night.

What men want does not matter. “Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.” -BIG BUCKET

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Littlefinger is the Man.

And this is only a story. Anything could have happened to Jeyne. I feel sympathy for what her characters been through but I can also laugh pretty damn hard when someone makes what would be considered in the "real world" an inappropriate remark cause sucks for her but she's fulfilled a pretty significate plot point and now she's on her was out or is she?

I like the idea that she could trip LF up but don't see it happening. Sadly, Sansa could have gotten rid of LF a long time ago but he's all she's got.

And in Petyr's defense. I like the scene HBO added in the brothel when he tells the whores - I fuck them all. That says it all.

Poor little Petyr grew up on a desolate rock with some sheep. He's lucky enough to be taken as a ward by the Tully's and given an education and some refinement growing up amongst Lord Tully's own children but then what happens. Cat and Lysa start playing their little kissing games with him and he falls in love with the bitch Cat. She totally leads him on -6 dances in a row, you don't have to be Lysa to see the meaning implyed in that. She knew what she was doing and thought it was a good laugh but Petyr and Lysa paid the price for her mischief.

By the way, I pretty much disliked Cat from the get go (The Bitch made Ned go with Robert) but when she told Robb to send Roose to guard the rear I knew they we're fucked. And it was all going to be her fault, like the fallout from Tyrions kidnapping. Anyway, Lysa sleeping with LF while LF thought it was Cat is a cruel twist that has repercussions for all of them. Very Shakespearean, like the Red Wedding. Love it.

Petyr bought into the system of those he grew up with Tully = Family, Duty, Honor. He risked his (young) life for a lie because he was caught up in the fairytale, much like Sansa once was. He had his own rude awakening and was banished back to his dreay home on the Fingers and forgotten by most everyone. All his prospects for the future gone. Bitch and Lysa go off to marry two of the greatest Lords of the Realm and Petyr gets....fucked for the second time in his life.

I love that he's made himself into a player and is able to come back from their past to fuck things up. Do I hope he "wins", not really but I like to see him in action.

As far as Jeyne and others who have suffered horriible fates during this series.

Sometimes your the windshield and sometimes your the bug and if your a bug in the Westeros your liable to get flayed. :laugh:

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I like him but not love him as some of my favourite characters,I was always wondering what is his end game,what this man want to achieve in his life.

As many stated he is very smart,cunning and always build for future,he dont let his emotions overwhelm him.

I understand why people hate him,I was one of them,now goes that famous saying: dont hate player hate the game.

You have to respect what he manage to do if you consider his background,he lack strength and birthright,he is smart and understand how world works.

To respond to comment he dont help Jeyne Pool,he sees opportunity and use it,lets not be blinded he does not care for people.

He dont see her like damsel in distress,he just see newest asset and will wait for opportunity to use it.

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I would be kind of disappointed if Sansa outsmarted Littlefinger after he trained her, it strikes me as a bit silly. The guy is a pretty big deal, always comes on top, keeps his hands clean, we have Tyrion (who's presented as one of the smartest guys around) remark how complicated his finances are... having him be intellectually beaten by a thirteen years old after a brief period of learning would be kind of like Pyp beating Khal Drogo in a 1 on 1 fight after a Rocky training montage: cool, for sure, but not much in line with the rest of the series.

Well that depends on how it's done, Kids and teenagers learn manipulation and lying real early in life,it's how it's handled as to weather the parents have inherited a problem so Sansa is quite capable of manipulating LF since she already knows what he wanted namely power,respect, Catelyn and Catelyn's daughter, she isn't going to do an Einstein manipulation it'll be a bit seductive and as he's too busy paying attention she will either have him speak with some Lord Declarent in ear shot or slip the strangler in his wine.

I agree the SOB is intelligent, cunning and strictly in it for himself and if he was honorable just imagine what an asset he could be to the realm.

All said and done he has to die or be broken financially and at-tainted, I want Sansa to do it.

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Poor little Petyr grew up on a desolate rock with some sheep. He's lucky enough to be taken as a ward by the Tully's and given an education and some refinement growing up amongst Lord Tully's own children but then what happens. Cat and Lysa start playing their little kissing games with him and he falls in love with the bitch Cat. She totally leads him on -6 dances in a row, you don't have to be Lysa to see the meaning implyed in that. She knew what she was doing and thought it was a good laugh but Petyr and Lysa paid the price for her mischief.

<snip>

Petyr bought into the system of those he grew up with Tully = Family, Duty, Honor. He risked his (young) life for a lie because he was caught up in the fairytale, much like Sansa once was. He had his own rude awakening and was banished back to his dreay home on the Fingers and forgotten by most everyone. All his prospects for the future gone. Bitch and Lysa go off to marry two of the greatest Lords of the Realm and Petyr gets....fucked for the second time in his life.

Stop it. You're breaking my heart.

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