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septa lemore is ashara dayne.


Aurane Lannister

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It might be a cheap trick, but I believe that GRRM has simply omitted telling us about Lemore's eyes because we would guess that she was Ashara. Tyrion notices most things about people's appearance and it is glaring that he doesn't talk about Ashara's eyes.

To Tyrion, Ashara was just some random noble woman who killed herself when he was just a child. He probably had heard of her at one stage but never even thought of her since. He would have no need to. Even if he did know about her purple eyes, why would he even care or remember such a thing? Young boys don't care about silly old dead ladies.

On the other hand, Jon Connington was an historical figure. As a former - and failed - King's Hand, Jon would be interesting to Tyrion, son of another of Aerys's Hands. Jon's loss at the Battle of the Bells and his subsequent exile was the stuff of legends. Tyrion obviously knew something of Jon's appearance - he recognised Jon's red roots growing through his blue-dyed hair - and Tyrion recognised the Connington sigil, the Griffon, as being the inspiration for Jon's alias, Griff (real subtle there fella).

Tyrion was able to figure out for himself who Jon was and, with that information, he was able to guess who Young Griff was. Tyrion had enough interest and knowledge about Jon to recognise him. Tyrion would have very little interest and knowledge in Ashara and it would not cross his mind to associate the Septa with a lady who killed herself when he was a boy.

Purple eyes are uncommon in Westeros, but not exactly rare. Given that Tyrion came to the conclusion that Young Griff was Aegon, possibly he may have thought that Lemore was some very, very distant Targ cousin (so distant to be practically a no one). Or maybe he thought she was a half-Westeros, half-Essos bastard who had been raised in Westeros but inherited one parent's purple eyes. Or maybe he didn't care, because, as I said, purple eyes aren't exactly rare.

If Tyrion had said that Lemore's eyes were blue or green or grey or brown or red or any other colour, fair enough she wouldn't be Ashara. But I definately think that GRRM is playing with us here. In any case, we don't know the colour of Lemore's eyes, so we don't know that they are not purple.

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I agree with this, If she is Jon's mother, which I hope she's not, then I can see why she would be added to the story but I don't think that she can really do much this far in.

Maybe she's not, but knows who was. That would make her just as interesting a puzzle piece. Maybe more interesting. I'm hoping she's Ashara, too, though yeah, I don't know how Tyrion would see YG's purple eyes and completely miss Lemore's. (Unless it's that old joke that her eyes are a bit higher than where he's looking....)

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Some time ago there was another thread about your question, with a brilliant catch by a boarder who connected the name Lemore to the character in the book that was the source for the movie Vertigo. About a lady who supposedly jumped from a tower ...

les morts ... lemore

I think her name, if it has any meaning at all, is supposed to mean "love" (l'amore) as in "Ashara is Lemore, Barristan loved Ashara, he will betray Daenerys for "love".

Vertigo is very far fetched, but nice to know people are creative.

But personaly I would be dissapointed if Lemore really is Ashara. I have imagined Ashara way fiercer and wilder and pure.

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I admit that it's a possibility but a few things bother me. Purple eyes are a valyrian trait, and in Westeros, only families that have married in with the Targs express this trait.

Lemore is Westerosi by our current knowledge.

If Lemore is Ashara then Lemore has purple eyes.

Given the rarity of purple eyes among Westerosis, and their direct link to Targ lineage, why does NOONE including Tyrion remark how effing odd it is for a random Westerosi Septa to have purple eyes?

Given all of the huge huge huge implications of this eye-color among people of Westeros, and the scant handful of people/families who would have members with this trait, how can anyone just ignore, take for granted, or dismiss this in their POV, and if they do, how can this in any way be realistic??

Purple eyes are indeed rare in Westeros, but Targaryens aren't the only Westerosi family with that trait. There are other families descended from Valyrians that crossed over with the Targaryens, who also have purple eyes. Purple eyes are common amost members of House Velaryon for example. (like Aurane Waters)

While the Velaryons have intermarried with Targaryens over the centuries, IIRC it was only stated that the Targaryens occasionally took females from house Velaryon as wives. There is no indication that any Velaryon men took Targaryen wives, so it is likely the purple eye trait in the Velaryon family predates Aegon's conquest of Westeros. In fact that was probably why Targaryens wed Velaryons in the first place. They were looking to preserve Valyrian traits in their family. (white/gold hair and purple eyes)

Even so, I do think it is odd that Septa Lemore has purple eyes and no one seems to wonder if she truly is who she claims.

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Apart from Tyrion, we don't know of anyone who met her that might have known who she really is.

Jon Connington was Hand to Aerys and a friend of Rhaegar. Ashara Dayne was close companion to Elia.

We know that Illyrio made trips to Westeros. He could have met or seen Ashara.

ETA corrected for inaccuracy

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The Septa is in charge of educating Aegon in the matter of the Faith. Where would Ashara have received the relevant education? Not after her "death", since she was clandestine in Essos. Being a noblewoman, she could rely on whatever she recalled from her religious education. But I hardly see how she could have been ordained.

Then why pose as a Septa? Is it because Jon Connington needed her to be accepted as member of Aegon's entourage for some competence?

On the Shy Maid, we see Duck training Aegon, we see Haldon teaching Aegon history, languages etc, but we never see Lemore instructing Aegon. There is merely a mention of "Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith". (Frankly, when I saw that line I had unorthodox thoughts about the nature of Lemore's teachings.) Lemore incorporates the religious jargon in her manner of speaking, but it's only to say platitudes.

Is she really competent about the Faith of the Seven?

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On the Shy Maid, we see Duck training Aegon, we see Haldon teaching Aegon history, languages etc, but we never see Lemore instructing Aegon. There is merely a mention of "Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith".

Good catch. If Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne she could be very useful as a teacher. She could educate him Aegon in 'courtly' manners, tell him the background story of his mother, tell him how it works in Dorne.

I took it the Septa thing was a disguise. Tyrion clearly fell for it and an attractive septa fed his fantasy. Some women find priests very interesting (The Thorn Birds ...). Remember Tyrion notices that Lemore is not a septa after they leave the ship. I guess until then he thought she was a septa and when he saw Young Griff going to her for a lesson he would think she tought him about the mysteries of the faith.

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To put more directly, and perhaps not very seriously, the "teachings" of Lemore made me think of the following dialogue between Gerris and Quentyn (another prince who should have prepared to meet Dany.)

“Do you think Daenerys would be pleased to hear that I had bedded some whore?”

“She might be. Men may be fond of maidens, but women like a man who knows what he’s about in the bedchamber. It’s another sort of sword-play. Takes training to be good at it.”

I am not saying that Lemore is a whore posing as a Septa (like in the Western where Shirley McLaine plays a nun all along until she returns to her brothel). But it's not unheard of that an older woman gives a younger man a sentimental and sexual education. But that's no more than an entertaining thought.

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Griff thinks, " Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that."

So, yeah. She's there to teach Young Griff about the Faith, and that seems to be it.

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Griff thinks, " Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that."

So, yeah. She's there to teach Young Griff about the Faith, and that seems to be it.

You're right. I forgot that he said this. Hmm ... curiouser and curiouser :drunk:

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At one point Tyrion descibes Septa Lemore as a "handsome woman" so to me that almost rules her out as Ashara Dayne becuase certainly a woman as beautiful has would still be very beautiful at at her age and not simply handsome.

The wiki states her extreme beauty, but the reference in the text is a bit weak.

If I recall correctly the source for that she is seen as extreme beauty is Barristan Selmy, who had a crush on her. This is hardly an objective descrption.

And that supposedly Ned Stark, him being shy, fell for her. That doesn't prove she is exceptional beautiful either.

Someone online who can supply some quotes? I don't have the books at hand :frown5:

ETA AGOT I could lay my hands on. Catelyn 6.

Catelyn describes her as "beautiful". 'Tall, fair, with haunting violet eyes.'

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Jon Connington was Hand to Aerys and a friend of Rhaegar. Ashara Dayne was close companion to Elia. We know that Illyrio made trips to Westeros. He could have met or seen Ashara. ETA corrected for inaccuracy

Err, she danced with Griff at Harrenhal, we think.

The probability that they knew each other, though not necessarily well (apart from that dance, he was a faithful friend of Rhaegar, she was Rhaegar's wife's handmaid (companion)) is one of the many things that point to Lemore likely being Ashara. Griff knew her and would trust her more than just about anyone both if she told him about Aegon and to raise Aegon.

The Septa is in charge of educating Aegon in the matter of the Faith. Where would Ashara have received the relevant education? Not after her "death", since she was clandestine in Essos. Being a noblewoman, she could rely on whatever she recalled from her religious education. But I hardly see how she could have been ordained. Then why pose as a Septa? Is it because Jon Connington needed her to be accepted as member of Aegon's entourage for some competence? On the Shy Maid, we see Duck training Aegon, we see Haldon teaching Aegon history, languages etc, but we never see Lemore instructing Aegon. There is merely a mention of "Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith". (Frankly, when I saw that line I had unorthodox thoughts about the nature of Lemore's teachings.) Lemore incorporates the religious jargon in her manner of speaking, but it's only to say platitudes. Is she really competent about the Faith of the Seven?

As Ran points out, apparently she is.

Ashara was 'dishonoured' and had a child (stillborn) out of wedlock. In our world, in the analogous cultures, such a woman was seen as less suitable for marriage, and unless she had a particularly large dowry, the usual life vocation thereafter was a religious vocation (not necessarily by choice).

I suspect Ashara had some close dealings with religious orders between her dishonour at Harrenhal and the end of the war, which is a period of around 1.5-3 years. Combine that with her expectedly already comprehensive noblewoman's education and she's probably very competent in the Faith of the Seven.

Personally I count it as another minor pointer to Lemore = Ashara (though obviously its a stronger pointer to Tyene's mother, who was an actual septa).

At one point Tyrion descibes Septa Lemore as a "handsome woman" so to me that almost rules her out as Ashara Dayne becuase certainly a woman as beautiful has would still be very beautiful at at her age and not simply handsome.

Sigh. Not this ridiculous statement again...

Point 1, Ashara was not necessarily as drop dead gorgeous as so many people think.

She had haunting (or laughing) violet eyes and was 'fair' meaning attractive (since she has dark hair) and had plenty of eligible young studs hanging around. That only shows she has good eyes and X-factor, not stunning beauty. Barristan (who was in love with her and totally biased) describes her as making Elia look drab. Well big deal - Elia is a sickly woman with 2 kids by then, while Ashara is the young unmarried babe he fancies.

She was probably attractive enough to be 'beautiful', don't get me wrong. But to decide she was so gorgeous she must be still drop-dead 20 years later is ridiculous. Basically it comes from the romanticisation of the imagined Ned-Ashara romance, and little else.

Note that Catelyn thinks of her as beautiful (as well as fair) but hadn't met her and is going off other's reports - and in context is mentally complaining about the 'beautiful young noblewoman Ned has supposedly had an affair with'. Its not likely to be an objective statement even if she had met Ashara.

Point 2, its been 20 friggin years! Or near enough. And most of those years posing as a nun, more or less! No bands of maids to care for her, no expensive toiletries and cosmetics. Not every smokin hot college girl is even 'attractive' at 40, let alone still gorgeous.

But you know what? Lemore has still got it. She has X-factor, she makes mens heads turn, she makes their radars tingle. Just like Ashara did. Even though she is over 40 (apparently). And its not just the nakedness either, its the flirty manner, the natural charm.

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Griff thinks, " Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that."

So, yeah. She's there to teach Young Griff about the Faith, and that seems to be it.

Thanks. There might be people in Aegon's entourage who plan to double cross Griff, but Lemore seems to be the least likely to me, especially if she is Ashara Dayne (whose interests would align with Griff's). I wouldn't trust so much the halfmaester, for instance. Moreover, Griff and Lemore have known each other for a long time.

So If Griff thinks she is half competent or more, I go along with that.

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Point 1, Ashara was not necessarily as drop dead gorgeous as so many people think.

She had haunting (or laughing) violet eyes and was 'fair' meaning attractive (since she has dark hair) and had plenty of eligible young studs hanging around. That only shows she has good eyes and X-factor, not stunning beauty. Barristan (who was in love with her and totally biased) describes her as making Elia look drab. Well big deal - Elia is a sickly woman with 2 kids by then, while Ashara is the young unmarried babe he fancies.

She was probably attractive enough to be 'beautiful', don't get me wrong. But to decide she was so gorgeous she must be still drop-dead 20 years later is ridiculous. Basically it comes from the romanticisation of the imagined Ned-Ashara romance, and little else.

Note that Catelyn thinks of her as beautiful (as well as fair) but hadn't met her and is going off other's reports - and in context is mentally complaining about the 'beautiful young noblewoman Ned has supposedly had an affair with'. Its not likely to be an objective statement even if she had met Ashara.

Point 2, its been 20 friggin years! Or near enough. And most of those years posing as a nun, more or less! No bands of maids to care for her, no expensive toiletries and cosmetics. Not every smokin hot college girl is even 'attractive' at 40, let alone still gorgeous.

But you know what? Lemore has still got it. She has X-factor, she makes mens heads turn, she makes their radars tingle. Just like Ashara did. Even though she is over 40 (apparently). And its not just the nakedness either, its the flirty manner, the natural charm.

I agree. Plus Ashara has been through a lot since Harrenhal- whether her child was stillborn or involved in a baby swap she has lost him/her, her brother has died, along with Elia, and possibly her lover (depending on who he was). All of this grief would take its toll on one's appearance I think.

And she's living on a poleboat, dressed in septa's robes-if she were wearing flowing gowns and flattering jewels mayhaps she would be described differently. She's posing as a septa, which I assume entails drabbing down a bit.

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This fits totally with my theory about Daario who I think is the son of Aerys II I mean think about it. Aegon has hair dyed blue, and so does Daario. Daario is the right age to be the son of Aerys he's about Jaime's age form what we know. If Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne and is in Essos then why couldn't there be more children of Aerys in Essos, we know he slept with lots of people's wives. Maybe GRRM has some more surprises in store for us ;)

Who is the mother?

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It makes sense for Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne. The character can serve as a bridge between the past and present. And it is eay to accept her into the Aegon plotline because she would have every reason to protect her friends' child.

Like Howland Reed, she can give us insight into the Tourney at Harrenhall, the Tower of Joy and Ned's subsequent visit to Starfall.

But Ashara can (possibly) do one thing that Howland cannot...give us a perspective into the minds of Rhaegar, Elia and Arthur. After all, she was part of the "in crowd" back then. Even though Connington and Ser Barristan were around, they would not necessarily know everything that she knows.

She can also give us more information about House Dayne. We aren't provided with that insight by either Darkstar (too arrogant) or Edric (too young?). And she could possibly tell us the whereabouts of Dawn.

If SL=AD then:

- how will this "reveal" be presented in the story? Will it be revealed in a Connington POV?

- who else knows that she is stil alive? Varys? Illyrio?

- will her identity be revealed to the reader only or will others in Westeros find out as well? Who else can identify her - Ser Barristan, Jaime, Cersei, Doran?

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You don't actually have to be religious to teach someone about religion, at all. Lemore is educated, she's learned in the matters of the faith of the Seven, probably has read and studied The Seven Pointed Star, and knows about the symbolism behind the Seven. She can pass her knowledge on to Aegon. It's important for him to know this stuff because as King he has to reflect his people, and understand their ways, which includes the Faith of the Seven. It's not like she's doing this to bring him to God or something. And as for platitudes, that's really the most important thing for him, not internalizing the religion and having faith. Just like any politician, Aegon needs to give lip service and know the proper formulae.

If she was a genuine Targ loyalist, she may have felt that the cause was defeated for now in Westeros and it would be a better use of her time and loyalty to go to Essos and help raise her friend Elia's son. Varys may have recruited her for just such a purpose, he may even have used her as a courier to take the baby out of the country. It makes a nice kind of symmetry for Aegon to have as his guardians his father's friend Jon and his mother's friend Ashara. Note: Aegon can be either real or fake in this scenario - Ashara may not have seen him for many months or even ever.

If there is any truth to her stillborn baby, she just may have wanted to get away from Westeros. Particularly if she was grieving that baby's father as Barristan suggested. She may have not wanted to marry anyone, so she chose to run away. Plus she did seem to be the adventurous, out-going type, so maybe she did it for a bit of excitement.

Maybe she did fear for her safety under Robert's regime, or maybe she feared that her family would be in danger because of both Ashara and Arthur's close friendships with the Targs. If Ashara and Arthur are both dead, then the family may not be in danger anymore.

Yes, exactly! Resulting in Dany's betrayal for love.

I guess it depends on where your interests lie. Personally I am extremely interested in the period between the tourney at Harrenhal and the Rebellion. I am actually more interested in the back story than the current story! I am always looking for clues to the past when I am reading these books, because not only do I find it very interesting, I think that the events of the past will be very influential on future events.

You have thoroughly convinced me. I'm also very interested in the events that led up to Robert's rebellion so I think Ashara would have a much needed role to play in revealing that info.

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