septa lemore is ashara dayne.

[7V3N]

hahaha, I did actually, two days ago!!! cause I don't believe ashara is septa lemore so I was trying to find other candidates. In the end I was so confused and it just clicked. What if our beloved writer is that twisted (in a good way) so that he put a septa pose as a mysterious someone????

GRRM loves throwing us off. Too many times I have thought a POV character has died (specifically Arya at the Twins and Asha at Deepwood), only to find out GRRM was just messing with me. When Ned's head was cut off, he made it clear that things can sometimes be as simple as that. No escape, no reasoning, no return--DEAD. Lemore being just Lemore could be GRRM saying, "Enough with your ridiculous hopes and theories. This is my type of fantasy."

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I'm embarrassed that i never thought of this. The fact that Dayne's body was never found is important, (GRRM has taught us the only way to know someone is actually dead is to see the body). The descriptions of Lemore are similar to what we know of Dayne. Many people seem to have the issue with the eye color, but i'm not sure that's as big of a deal as people are making it. Lemore is either Ashara, or simply the mother of Tyene Sand, but either one comes with implications i guess. I look forward to finding out more.

[Faint]

Delete

[corbon]

For a character that has barely been mentioned you sure seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about how Ashara Dayne looked and acted.

Perhaps you missed the part explicitly saying she had dark brown hair (Barristan), the same as we are told Lemore's hair?

Or the parts where Ashara is described as 'fair' (probably meaning attractive, since she has dark hair), and as putting Elia (noted elsewhere as an attractive woman) 'in the shade'? Or how Ashara danced with a bunch of the very much most eligible bachelors in Westeros at Harrenhal, had 'dancing purple eyes' and apparently got Ned, at least, infatuated (perhaps) and had an affair that produced an illegitimate child (stillborn we are told) with someone mysterious? And had Ser Barristan Selmy, that noted middle-aged bachelor, head over heels.

It's pretty clear she (Ashara) was attractive and/or vivacious - basically an X-factor girl in some ways, if not stunningly beautiful (which she may or may not have been).

Don't mistake analysing the evidence with 'preconceived notions' just because you haven't done the same. :huh:

And don't mistake taking a balance of probabilities, and calling it a possible match (circumstantial evidence, not proof) for claiming 'proof' or 'rightness'.

Has anyone thought that Lemore is just some septa named Lemore?

For sure its possible. But there are clear suggestions she is more. In particular the way that she tells Griff that he is not the only one who has secrets (refering in context to hiding identity) and the way that once back in Westeros Griff thinks of her as 'Lady Lemore'.

[Faint]

Perhaps you missed the part explicitly saying she had dark brown hair (Barristan), the same as we are told Lemore's hair?

Or the parts where Ashara is described as 'fair' (probably meaning attractive, since she has dark hair), and as putting Elia (noted elsewhere as an attractive woman) 'in the shade'? Or how Ashara danced with a bunch of the very much most eligible bachelors in Westeros at Harrenhal, had 'dancing purple eyes' and apparently got Ned, at least, infatuated (perhaps) and had an affair that produced an illegitimate child (stillborn we are told) with someone mysterious? And had Ser Barristan Selmy, that noted middle-aged bachelor, head over heels.

It's pretty clear she (Ashara) was attractive and/or vivacious - basically an X-factor girl in some ways, if not stunningly beautiful (which she may or may not have been).

Which establishes what, exactly? That any half decent looking woman in her forties with dark brown hair and a child in her past could possibly be Ashara Dayne? I'm sorry to say, that isn't a lot to go on.

I'm not dismissing the possibility out of hand but, as theories go, this is one of the more unsupported currently doing the rounds on this forum.

[Jem]

Which establishes what, exactly? That any half decent looking woman in her forties with dark brown hair and a child in her past could possibly be Ashara Dayne? I'm sorry to say, that isn't a lot to go on.

I'm not dismissing the possibility out of hand but, as theories go, this is one of the more unsupported currently doing the rounds on this forum.

But we are not talking about just any "half decent looking woman", we are talking about a woman who has actually been introduced to the story and who is placed in the vicinity of several important POV characters (suggesting that she may be important, too).

We are talking about a woman who went missing, presumed dead, but no body found. Then 15+ years later another woman turns up who looks and acts very similarly to the missing woman. It just seems likely that they are one and the same to me.

Lemore is obviously hiding something. We know that she is going incognito (she metions that Jon and Aegon are not the only ones who need to conceal their identities). Once she is in Westeros she is refered to as 'Lady', which implies that she is (or was) a Westerosi Lady. Ashara is (or was) a Westerosi Lady and she also bears a likeness to Lemore.

Ashara presumably drowned. Lemore is an excellent swimmer. To me, that is GRRM's "wink and a nod" that Lemore is Ashara.

[Faint]

Let's be clear here, I'm not making any definitive statement saying here and now that Lemore is not Ashara Dayne. I myself immediately considered the possibility when she was first introduced and started scouring the text for a description of her eyes. But I remain steadfast in my position that the evidence right now is flimsy at best and contains one troubling omission.

[corbon]

Which establishes what, exactly? That any half decent looking woman in her forties with dark brown hair and a child in her past could possibly be Ashara Dayne? I'm sorry to say, that isn't a lot to go on.

No. It establishes, I hope to your satisfaction, that it is not just a 'preconceived notion about how Ashara Dayne looked and acted'. Which was rather a rude thing to say.

And yes,by itself that is not much to go on.

But then you add in all the other 'matches'...

The 'septa' has stretch marks and the 'noble maiden' had an illegitimate child (that we didn't find out about until after the stretch mark reveal, so it wasn't supposed to be an immediate connection - we were clearly led to believe that the rumours of her being Jon Snow's mother were false, which left her still, to our knowledge, a maiden).

The Septa swims daily, and the noble maiden supposedly suicided by diving nto the sea, though no body was ever found.

If Aegon is real (or a fake purporting to be real, which he definitely is one of) then the 'septa' needs a connection to Aegon somehow. Ashara is the closest possible connection (his mothers handmaid and his father's best friend's sister). Tyene's mother would be a more distant connection (his mother's brother's ex-mistress) and far riskier (a connection through the Dhornish ruling family would be tied up in what is best for Dhorne, not what is best for Aegon, whereas Ashara has no such responsibilities).

Ashara was known to Jon Connington (she danced with him at Harrenhal and was Elia's handmaid).

Lemore is referred to as a Lady in Griff's thoughts.

Lemore appears to point out to Griff that he is not the only one needing to keep his true identity hidden, the implication at the time being that she did also - which means she must be someone who was important and connected. Ashara fits that far better than anyone else that has been suggested (well, except for the Lyanna, whom we saw die in Ned's arms on-memory-screen).

The religious angle. Ashara even fits that perfectly. In similar real-world cultures dishonoured young noblewoman often took up religious vocation. Perhaps Ashara (who we know was dishnoured, and dropped out of sight for around 2 years or more) did the same, or at least had some of the training?

The age matches for our best guess.

We also have zero, repeat zero, evidentiary question marks or mismatches. For example, Tyene's mother is a Septa yes, but there is no link to her as a 'Lady', so why would Griff think of her as Lady Lemore? It doesn't fit with the data we know...

I'm not dismissing the possibility out of hand but, as theories go, this is one of the more unsupported currently doing the rounds on this forum.

Care to name another theory outside R+L=J that has more separated evidentiary points? And name/number the points?

Currently for Ashara=Lemore we have the following 'matches':

1. Hair colour

2. Age

3. Attractiveness/looks

4. Flirty/Vivacious/X factor behaviour

5. Connection to Aegon

6. Swimming

7. Stretch marks

8. Known by Griff

9. Needs hidden identity

10. Formerly a Lady

11. Religious vocation

What else do we know about Lemore? I can't thing of anything else we know about Lemore right now. We know her approximate age, her hair colour, she is attractive (handsome older woman), has X factor/vivaciousness outside pure looks (parading naked for swimming and seemingly enjoying the attention), is the earliest known person with Aegon (independently of Griff), somehow has Griff's trust and sort of respect, is a good swimmer, has stretch marks, apparently has a secret identity to hide, is referred to by Griff as a Lady in his head and is responsiblye for Aegon's religious training. Every single thing we know about Lemore can be connected to Ashara.

That is a fairly long way from 'unsupported' in my books. And though each individual item could be construed as 'flimsy', collectively there is a great deal of strength there - individual twigs vs bundle analogy fits.

The one troubling omission can be easily explained for meta reasons.

Also note that it is an omission, not anti-evidence.

Indeed, arguably it can be considered possible evidence itself (#12) - why omit eye colour at all unless it gave something away too easily?

Also very interestingly, a couple of the connections are almost anti-connections when we initially see them with Lemore. We only find out later that Ashara exhibited these connections from Barristan.

Everyone thought Ashara probably had light or silver hair - its a noted Dayne trait and one possibility of the 'fair' description we have of her. So Lemore's brown hair is almost an anti-clue initially, until Barristan tells us Ashara had dark brown hair too.

Ashara was not suspected of actually having a baby, so Lemore's stretch marks were initially an anti-clue to Ashara. Since we know (99%) A+N=/=J, therefore there was no suspicion that Ashara actually had a child at that stage.

[The Duke]

This seems very plausible, but I do hope there are some red herrings in this story as well.

[Faint]

Well, seeing as this matter is not going to be settled any time soon, barring the very unlikely possibility that we are gifted with a Jon Connington chapter sometime between now and when the next book comes out, what about talking about the potential ramifications of Lemore being Ashara Dayne?

What would be the point of her reappearance?

Something related with Dawn? Does she know about Jon Snow and his parentage? Or is she simply there to have Barristan Selmy betray Daenerys?

I have a hard time believing Lemore’s only purpose, if she is Ashara Dayne, is to give the sheen of legitimacy to Aegon’s quest for the throne.

Any other ideas?

[Jem]

I think her primary "in story" role is to confirm Aegon's legitimacy (not that I do think he is the real Aegon. Either Ashara/Lemore will be lying or wont know the real truth). I think that she will reveal herself once Aegon has secured a large part of Westeros. I think that she will feel that her family might be put in danger if she reveals herself too soon, however I think that she will eventually reveal herself as a last resort, just to tip the odds in Aegon's favour at the end of his campaign.

As an extra bonus, I do think she knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby and who he is, but what she will do about it I don't know. Maybe if she finds out Aegon is a fake then she will seek out Jon.

I also think she may again encounter Selmy and that may have ramifications on Dany's campaign. It is possible that Selmy may waiver in his commitment to Dany if Ashara convinces him that Aegon is the real deal.

As to Dawn, I don't know. I did think that Ashara might have the sword with her to prove her own identity, however it seems a risky thing to do, carting such a valuable heirloom around in a foreign country for years and years.

I really am committed to the Lemore = Ashara theory, and I hope and think that it is true. Ashara knows so much about the years immediately prior to, during, and after the Rebellion. She was part of Rhaegar and Elia's inner circle, so she could tell us so much about them. Plus she knew Ned and Brandon and Lyanna Stark, so I bet there is a lot she could tell us about them too.

[corbon]

what about talking about the potential ramifications of Lemore being Ashara Dayne? What would be the point of her reappearance? Something related with Dawn? Does she know about Jon Snow and his parentage? Or is she simply there to have Barristan Selmy betray Daenerys? I have a hard time believing Lemore’s only purpose, if she is Ashara Dayne, is to give the sheen of legitimacy to Aegon’s quest for the throne. Any other ideas?

As Jem pointed out, there are multiple possibilities that Lemore=Ashara gives us (can you think of anyone who could give us more possibilities?)

I have no idea what GRRM will choose. At this point I am happy to trust him to write whatever he chooses well enough for me to enjoy it.

[Faint]

I've thought over the issue a little bit and I now realize that Barristan betraying Daenerys for Ashara Dayne, presuming Lemore and her are one and the same, is very unlikely. The Barristan POV was a late addition and, as of now, is the only evidence establishing his affection for her. In other words, it appears as if a betrayal on the part of Barristan was never planned out.

Dawn is in Starfall. I believe GRRM has confirmed as much. So the idea of her having the sword is not going to fly either.

[Independent George]

The one troubling omission can be easily explained for meta reasons.

Also note that it is an omission, not anti-evidence.

Indeed, arguably it can be considered possible evidence itself (#12) - why omit eye colour at all unless it gave something away too easily?

And that's exactly why I would be annoyed if it were true - for Tyrion, of all people, to not notice such an unusual eye color when he's specifically looking for it in Griff, beggars belief. While it is plausible that he wouldn't have any more than a general description of Ashara Dayne, excluding this from the text entirely to conceal her identity would be a cheap trick. It doesn't compare to Arya's not-death at the hands fo Yoren or Sandor (both of which I figured out immediately upon reading), because both are consistent with Arya's POV. She's knocked unconcsious by Sandor, and she can't actually see what Yoren is doing - she can only feel the pain as he cuts her hair with a knife. For it to be consistent with Tyrion, there needs to be a reason he doesn't notice such a rare eye color, particularly when he takes the trouble to look at Griff's. Staring at her chest is funny, but not a satisfactory explanation.

[corbon]

And that's exactly why I would be annoyed if it were true - for Tyrion, of all people, to not notice such an unusual eye color when he's specifically looking for it in Griff, beggars belief. While it is plausible that he wouldn't have any more than a general description of Ashara Dayne, excluding this from the text entirely to conceal her identity would be a cheap trick. It doesn't compare to Arya's not-death at the hands fo Yoren or Sandor (both of which I figured out immediately upon reading), because both are consistent with Arya's POV. She's knocked unconcsious by Sandor, and she can't actually see what Yoren is doing - she can only feel the pain as he cuts her hair with a knife. For it to be consistent with Tyrion, there needs to be a reason he doesn't notice such a rare eye color, particularly when he takes the trouble to look at Griff's. Staring at her chest is funny, but not a satisfactory explanation.

Can't argue with that. If it's true its one of the weakest pieces of writing in the series to date. But if it's true, he was also between a rock and a hard place. As soon as you mention the violet eyes its a dead set giveaway to this being someone critically important, and pretty easy to figure out who right from the start. Instead he had Tyrion distracted by boobs and doesn't bring up a description again. And we get drip fed the little clues and tidbits as to who Lemore might be all the way through the book, from Barristan, Connington and Tyrion chapters..

[Ser Lepus]

I´m sure other people has said it in similar threads, but, have you considered that Septa Lemore could be Ashara Dayne and Aegon the bastard son of Aegon and Lyanna?

It could solve nicely many problems:

Why does Jon Connington believe that Aegon is Rhaegar´s, despite being too young to be Elia´s child? Because he is Rhaegar´s son, even if he is a bastard (but people in Westeros would accept him as king only is they manage to pass him as Elia´s child).

Which was the promise Ned made to Lyanna? To bring her child to safety with the people Rhaegar had previously arranged in case that the rebels won.

Why did Ashara dissapear? Arthur Dayne and his brothers were supposed to take him to Essos with Ashara´s help, and raise him there, but, once Ned had killed Arthur and taken his (and Ashara´s) son Jon, she took on her shoulders the duty to raise baby Aegon (she breastfed him, and feel like she is her mother).

Varys located Aegon and Ashara, and offered them haven in Illyrio´s manse, and started to plot a way to crown the child (not sure of which are his motives to do so, though; I don´t buy that he cares for the smallfolk).

Also, are we sure Ashara has purple eyes?

[Patchface12]

Given the stretch marks Tyrion saw on her, I think Lemore is Serra, Aegon's real mother in disguise. She could be dying her hair, just as Sansa dyed her hair in the Vale.

Tho I have wondered if that famous paramour in Braavos mentioned in Arya's Feast chapters was Ashara Dayne. She was supposedly from Lys. Since the Lysene have Valyrian features, Ashara's purple (or lilac) eyes would have gone unnoticed.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

I love this theory (that the septa is Ashara Dane).

[Teal'c]

My first thought upon reading ADWD was that Septa Lemore was Tyene Sand's mother, but I'd prefer it if she turned out to be Ashara. There's a case for it, but it definitely has some weaknesses. The purple eyes issue that Revenge of the Starks mentioned, for example.

I'm starting to think she might be both.

Does someone have the textual reference showing that Ashara is a swimmer, or was that a speculation on a previous thread that since she lived near water she would be a swimmer? Naked outdoor bathing does seem to be a Dornish practice, as evidenced by Doran watching the children in the pools and fountains. She has the stretch marks, she's a handsome woman, and Ashara is someone the YG conspirators could trust, whether YG is a real or fake Aegon. We are also missing a body for Ashara Dayne. Tyrion doesn't notice her eyes even though he notices YG's eyes. That's worrisome to the SL=AD theory. Either the theory is wrong, or Tyrion is thinking more about her boobs than her eyes, or George didn't want this one to be too easy for us to figure out. The Vertigo reference is brilliant. Imagine him going out once removed to the source book to get the character name. Oh he is very tricksy, I wonder what else he's got in his pocketses?

It's also reasonable that she could be Tyene's mother. She lived in Dorne, so Oberyn would have access, and we know he collects his daughters whether or not the mothers are agreeable. And there are blondes in the Dayne family (e.g. Edric). If black haired Oberyn can have a blond daughter, so can a dark haired Ashara. They're simply both heterozygous for the allele. One in four chance of a blonde daughter. I'm also thinking of the rumor that Ned took their child away to Winterfell, and we all know that in ASOIAF and in RL, rumors have some foundation. So did Ned take Ashara's baby away, or did the child's father take it away? Another part of the story is that she had a stillborn girl. Did she have a stillborn girl or did she have Tyene?

We would still have to find an explanation for why a fake suicide was staged, and where she disappeared to for a span of years. Jon Conington states she was not in on the plan at the beginning, that she came later.

And this would make Selmy a good candidate for the betrayal for love. I think Jorah Mormont was the betrayal for money.

[Patchface12]

The question I have about Ashara Dayne is when was she ever pregnant/ had a child? Tyrion saw strechmarks on Lemore when she was swimming.

She could be Tyene's mother, but as someone pointed out, how can a dark haired Lemore (Ashara?) and Oberyn have a blonde haired blue eyed daughter?

Tho this goes with my fringe/crackpot idea that Lemore is Serra, Aegon's mother, and is dying her normally platinum/white hair brown. Maybe playing Aegon's septa gives her an excuse to spend time with her son without openly admitting she's his mother.

It would be interesting tho if Lemore was Serra but also was Tyene's mother. That would make Tyene and Aegon half siblings.